Transcript of “As Our Kids Get Older – 5 Ways to Continue Building Lasting Emotional Bonds”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be responding to a question, a couple of questions, actually, that I’m often asked—and by the way, I love any kinds of questions that you send me, so please keep them coming! The questions are around, What does your approach—respectful parenting or the RIE approach—look like as children get older? Does RIE end at two years old? What do you do then? What approach do you go to after that? Sometimes they’ll ask me, Who does what you do, but for older kids? And by “older” they might mean kids beyond three or four or five years old. So I thought I would take this opportunity to clarify some things about this approach I teach and my background.

What I’ve called “respectful parenting” is my interpretation of Magda Gerber’s Educaring Approach, commonly known as the RIE approach. And RIE is R-I-E, that’s the acronym for the nonprofit organization that Magda founded with pediatric neurologist Tom Forrest in 1978 called Resources for Infant Educarers, RIE. RIE was created for the first two years of life, and all the specific guidelines that Magda offered pertain to those first two years of life. In that sense, it does end at age two. But the whole purpose of this approach, and the whole reason it’s focused on zero to two, is that this is a foundational approach. It’s a way of understanding our children as babies and our relationship with them, a nurturing healthy relationship, how to navigate that in the first two years and give our child the foundation that they need, and our relationship the foundation it needs, to flourish for all the rest of the years. So this isn’t now we stop doing this and now we’re going to start spanking our child or molding them like clay. This approach lasts throughout children’s adulthood, and I can verify that as a parent of three adults.

Another question I’m often asked is, Is there a RIE person for older years? And there is not a RIE person for older years, because there isn’t a RIE approach for older years. What I’ve done is interpreted and also used my experiences—not only as a parent of three very different children with unique needs and temperaments and talents, but also the many families that I’ve consulted with over these past almost 30 years now, who have children up to age 10 or so. And some of these have been in-person consultations, some have been telephone conversations. And I’ve mainly learned that this approach is still totally valid and works for children of all ages. This same approach that is focused on the first two years of life continues to work. Personally, I’ve never needed anything else as a parent with my own children. Maybe because I’ve put so many years into studying and training, and then practicing and teaching this approach, that it’s foundational in me, in the way that I perceive everything.

I find it so interesting, too, that all these studies show that in the first three years of life, children are learning more, developing more than in the rest of our lives put together. And yet these early years are the ones we don’t remember, right? Magda focused on the first two years because it’s the beginning, and if we can set ourselves up in the beginning, then we’re giving our child something, and ourselves something, that will last.

One of the reasons is because of what science shows, that this is the most important time for children in terms of their self-confidence, their sense of self, even basic character traits, many of them that we’re modeling and they’re learning them that way. This is a precious time. We could say the most precious time in terms of learning and brain development and our relational development. So that was one reason.

Another reason is that while most believe—I don’t know if this is still true because there have been so many studies showing what amazing learners babies are, but yet still I would say we tend to discount these early years. We tend to see babies in this very limited way. Maybe because they’re not talking yet, they don’t seem like full people we can interact with. We maybe don’t understand that they might not want to be in somebody else’s arms, so we don’t bother to let them know or ask them and get a vibe from them whether that’s welcome or not. We maybe talk down to them. We don’t treat them as whole people so much. And yet what Magda believed, and studies confirm, this is actually a time we should want to be extra-careful, because they can’t express themselves. They can’t share nuances about what they’re feeling or their needs. So this is a time, in Magda’s view, and I’ve come to agree with this, to be more careful in what we’re doing with babies. How we’re engaging with them, how we’re treating them, because they can’t express themselves verbally. That’s why she was especially interested in all the things that are going on with babies in the first two years.

So, because it’s foundational and because they can’t tell us, we want to give them extra respect instead of less respect. And that’s why she talks about welcoming a baby as an honored guest when they’re born, not just a cute little thing that’s maybe a little empty-headed in the way that we see them. I mean, I definitely did that. Some people are naturally able to see into a baby and see the person there right away, but I was not able to in the beginning. Now that I do, I can’t stop seeing that with every baby. It’s like once you open this door, you never want to leave and maybe you can’t leave, if you wanted to.

That’s why there’s often this confusion around why this approach is focused on the first two years and what we’re supposed to do later. But I do understand that, just as everything looks different as our children grow, the way that we’re engaging with them looks different. And that’s why in this podcast, I do love to answer questions about children that are up to eight or nine years old. I don’t often go beyond that, because my basis of experience for those years is personal. But what I thought I would do in this podcast is share how I’ve continued to interpret Magda Gerber’s approach and how it has served me beautifully as a parent. I mean, I am not always beautiful as a parent, but this approach has served me that way.

Let’s talk about some of the major points that continue as our children get older and how they look. I mean, all of this continues as children get older, but how it looks.

First: keeping faith in our kids’ competency. One of the amazing lessons in this approach is that babies are born, yes, very dependent on us, and that’s good. It should be that way, right? That’s how we’re going to begin our attachment with them. And there’s so much that they can’t do. But even at birth, they have competencies. And the interesting thing about perceiving our children as competent right from the very beginning is not only is seeing believing, but believing is seeing in this case. So if we believe that our baby can learn how to communicate with us, we will see that this actually is true, because we will act on that belief, meaning we’ll try to include our baby in communication with us.

We realize that babies also have thoughts and interests that aren’t just about us. I remember years ago someone commenting on one of my posts saying, “Well, if a baby is away from you, if they’re out of your arms, they are just waiting to be in your arms again.” Basically, they’re putting life on hold. And first of all, it implies such a limited view of babies, that they couldn’t possibly have an independent thought or interest. Those of us that observe babies know that that’s not true. But if we don’t believe it, we probably won’t see it. We won’t see that the baby is actually quite content, sometimes, in their playpen or safe crib or on the floor as they get older. And they’ve got a lot to do, they’ve got a lot to see, they’ve got a lot to take in. When we see this limited view, we become very self-centered in the way that we’re considering babies, right? It’s all about us, adding so much more pressure to an already challenging job.

When we do begin this—and none of these things I’m going to say can’t be picked up on later in life. That’s the whole point of this podcast episode, is to show you how you can pick this up later in life if you want to, it doesn’t have to be when they’re babies. But when we start it when they’re babies, it becomes so much easier for us because we’re already into the seeing is believing, believing is seeing. We’ve believed and we’ve seen, and that just builds on itself. Wow, my baby can do this. They learned to roll over to their tummy all by themselves. We saw them trying, we saw them working on it, we saw them using their body freely, doing all these interesting intermediate positions. They can do that. And then from there, they can scoot, they can crawl, they can walk. They’re communicating with us. They’re practicing cognitive skills. They’re building higher learning skills like focus, attention, and critical thinking. Wow. Why would we get in the way of that if we saw it, right?

So this is never about abandoning a child or forcing independence. I mean, forcing independence is not possible anyway, right? Because independence isn’t a specific action someone else can teach you. It’s a feeling that you have. It’s something you want to taste, even as a baby. You want to have moments where you get to decide what to look at, what to touch. And the sense of agency that this builds is very powerful for children and carries them through adulthood. What we can do is honor independence, make room for it, notice it, and know that that’s such a positive aspect of our children’s development.

Also, it’s not only that children develop self-confidence and a sense of agency, this I can do it feeling deep within them. But this is also such a healthy relationship dynamic, right? That I trust you in all these areas. You know better than I do what you’re working on. You know better than I do what interests you. So why would I get in the way of that? And when we start opening ourselves up to that, we realize that children of all ages, not just the older ones but the little ones as well, they know what they’re doing. If we could stay out of their way in these areas of development and just create the environment that allows them to practice whatever they’re practicing. Not indicate to them, either overtly or subtly, that Really what you’re doing isn’t important, you need to be doing this right now. Because this is what I’m worried about you not getting, or this is what I was told you need to learn at this age or whatever.

And this can carry through with walking, talking, the way toys work, climbing, toilet learning, reading, homework. Eventually applying to college, choosing partners, choosing jobs, and navigating workplaces and relationships. Through all these autonomous struggles and accomplishments, our trust in our children’s abilities keeps growing, along with their self-confidence.

Alternatively, if we don’t truly believe that our kids are capable of handling their developmentally-appropriate tasks without our assistance—we’re not talking about putting children in a situation that’s traumatic, these are developmentally-appropriate tasks—I mean, if they ask for our assistance, we’re going to find a way to give it to them, right? Assistance, which doesn’t mean doing it for them. If they’re not asking, let them explore it. That’s the best possible thing they could do. But if we’re worried that they’re going to be crushed if they get too frustrated or if they make a mistake or get disappointed or, God forbid, they fail, then we can perpetuate this cycle of dependency. That, again, puts so much pressure on us and creates less security in our child, less self-confidence. The feeling that they need us for all these things that they really don’t, but we both got caught up in it that way.

If you do find yourself caught up in a situation where your child seems to need you to do all these tasks for them, then just try backing off. Not all the way maybe, but a little bit. If your child thinks they need you to sit there right with them while they’re doing their homework and show them how to do it, then just back off a little at first. I’m going to stay here with you the whole time, but instead of giving you the answers—and I’m not saying to say all this out loud, but this is the way to maybe approach it—instead of me giving you the answers, I’m going to ask more questions to help you find the answer.

I remember when my son was I think 10, and he had to make a book report and he had to draw a picture for the cover of the book report of this dog that was a big part of the story. And he said, “I don’t know how to draw a dog. I can’t do it.” And I thought, Uh-oh, yeah, that is a lot. That is kind of intimidating, for sure. But instead of starting to draw it for him—which believe me, I have that impulse. I have all the impulses everybody else has, but I’ve learned to kind of let them go and trust. So instead of taking that on for him, I just asked him questions, like “Is there a part of the dog’s body that you could draw first? What do you feel like you can draw?” And he said, “The nose.” So I said, “Okay, why don’t you try drawing the nose?” He drew the nose and then I said, “Okay, what next? What else could you draw?” “The ears. The eyes.” And it went like that, and he drew this really cool dog. I mean, it wasn’t a perfect dog, but it was perfect for him, at that time, to be able to do that.

I’ve learned, starting at the beginning with my kids as babies, that we want to help. But true help really means doing less, so that our child not only does the task, but learns that they can do it themselves. We want both of those types of learning to happen at the same time, ideally, as much as possible. Not only did you draw a dog, but you can draw. And he wouldn’t have had that part if I’d drawn the dog. He wouldn’t have had either one of those, actually. So this dynamic, keeping faith in our kids’ competency, continues.

There’s a really common thing that we can get caught up in with teenagers, which is we have to nag kids to do homework. And we can put an end to that cycle by stepping back, letting go, and having faith in our child to cope with these age-appropriate situations. And in the case of homework, encouraging our child, if they’re struggling with that, to bring that to their teacher. Because teachers love that too, right? Staying out of parts of parenting that are not really our job, that need to be our child’s job. Developing these skills is one of them.

Along with that is the second point I want to make: encouraging that inner-directedness, that process orientation, and the sense of self that that builds—the communion with self. When children are drawn to enrichment—if we are privileged to be able to give our child enrichment beyond school, in terms of hobbies or sports, if we can make that happen—what I’ve learned through this approach is to let that belong to our child. To let it be totally our child’s idea, if possible. Maybe they were exposed to it, they went to go watch their friend play a soccer game and now they want to do it. Never starting to lead that ourselves. Because once we put ourselves in the position of leading that, we can create a dynamic where our child feels like now they’re doing it for us. Maybe they’re now realizing they’re more interested in something else, but now they’re stuck with this because we feel like they need to finish everything they’ve started.

I don’t agree with that. If we have a child that keeps stopping things they’ve started, I would actually look at who’s really starting those activities and if it really is our child. Because oftentimes we think we’re suggesting things to our child, like, “Why don’t you do gymnastics?” And our countenance is telling them, My parent thinks I should want to do this. Really trying to prioritize letting our child lead these activities, because this is this precious bell inside them of their calling, of their interests, of all the things they’re going to end up doing in life as they get older. And doing with full commitment, because they’re their choice, right? It’s not going to be full commitment if it’s our choice or our suggestion, even. Wanting them to feel that full commitment. And trusting that some children don’t want to do anything after school, it’s exhausting. That’s perfectly okay too, and maybe there are things that they’re doing that are just as valid as going to take a class somewhere.

This looks, as children are older, like they’re choosing their subjects in high school, their electives that they want to take. I remember doubting when one of my kids said they didn’t want to continue with French and they’d done so well in French. I might’ve raised an eyebrow, but I let that go and I trusted and it was the best thing and perfectly fine for my child to do that. He’s a college graduate now and successful at a job already. They know better than we do. And even if we think they don’t know better than we do, allowing them to know better than we do will teach them so many more important things than that they should take French. That belief in: I can do my life, with my parent’s unconditional relationship and support.

And children benefit so much from downtime, what’s known as downtime, which is just they don’t want to do all those lessons that their friends are doing or the other parents are telling us we should do. They actually learn better because they have more time to digest and integrate and assimilate what they’ve been exposed to. And that’s the real brain-building part of experiences.

The other week I talked about praise and being careful not to overpraise, so that children can continue to be self-rewarded as much as possible. Yes, our communities and societies do give rewards, and that’s okay. It’s more important that our relationship with them is unconditional and trusting. They can get all those glossy things other places, but it’s not what our relationship is based on.

The third thing: accepting children’s feelings without judging or rushing them. What I talk about here all the time, because it is so integral to their emotional health, to being able to set boundaries—which I’m also going to talk about today—and really for them to flourish in life: Letting them express all those intense feelings. If they’re expressing them through behavior that might be aggressive behavior or unsafe behavior or even just annoying behavior to us, then all the more we want to encourage them to share those feelings another way. Not by saying, “Don’t do that, do this,” but saying, “It seems like you’re feeling this,” or “Is this what’s going on with you? Because you keep yelling at me.” Or, “Are you worried about something?” In that open, intimate way that we want to talk to our children. Not judgmental. Noticing the feelings beyond the behaviors.

Now, there are lots of ways that we can discourage feelings or diminish them that are far more subtle and loving, even. So we might want to keep our antenna up for those as children get older. Because of course, we never want to see our children hurt or upset in the least. We might say, “Look at all the things you have to be grateful for. It’s going to be fine.” Or, “Ah, they didn’t deserve you anyway.” There were so many times I wanted to say that about a problem with a friend or other relationship. “Oh, they just don’t get you.” No. Just allow the feelings. For me, it’s been about practicing zipping it. I mean, that sounds terrible, but just wait and let them keep going.

Because my urge to say something is often an urge to try to make them feel better or stop, and that doesn’t make them feel better or stop. What makes them feel better is to express it all, the whole way. Because it’s not our power to make our children feel a certain way, unfortunately, or anyone else for that matter.

And I will say that one of the reasons I talk about this so much in my podcast is that resisting the urge to calm feelings never really gets easier, at all. And our kids are going to get their feelings hurt a lot in life. They’re going to get rejected by friends, they’re not going to make the A-team, they’re going to lose the debate, they’re going to do poorly on the test, get their hearts broken. And all of this is life. As Magda always said, If we can learn to struggle, we can learn to live. And that learning to struggle is lifelong learning. And just acknowledging, “Ah, that was hurtful,” or that was whatever our child said it was. So children receive this healthiest message that whatever their moods, their darkest moods, their harshest feelings, even towards us, are safe for them to feel. Will be heard, accepted, hopefully understood by us, if possible.

This is really the biggest secret I know of to fostering a close lifelong bond with our kids. Not just accepting them and believing in them with skill development, but accepting and believing in them when they are at their absolute lowest.

And four, just in case you thought this was about letting kids do whatever they want: remember that the basis for all the healthy freedom that I’m talking about giving children is: boundaries. This could have been the very first point that I made, because none of the rest of this will flourish if children don’t feel safe in our confident, empathic leadership. Making those hard choices sometimes that are going to upset them, but we love them too much to not put ourselves on the line like that. We love them and ourselves too much to not confront it. I mean, I don’t want to confront things unless I absolutely have to, but I learned that this is real love. Real love isn’t just saying, “Okay, whatever, I don’t care.” That’s saying I don’t care. And we don’t mean it that way. We just mean, I can’t deal with another boundary right now. And I understand that, I’ve felt that many times. And maybe we can’t right then. But knowing that even though our children won’t tell us they love us so much when we state boundaries or hold boundaries for them, that’s how they feel.

What I’ve seen over the years is that the children know that. And the children that don’t have that, that seem like they’re so free to do whatever they want and the parent just accepts them, they will seek boundaries somewhere else usually, not necessarily in safe ways. Because it’s not a comfortable feeling when you’re a child—or a teenager, going through all the changes teenagers go through—that you’re in charge of your whole life. Yes, you want to be in charge of your skills and your learning and your free time, as long as it’s safe and reasonable, but not in charge of how you treat people or in charge of how you act on your moods or hurt yourself or hurt people. If we feel in charge of those things, we do not feel the slightest bit safe or loved or able to blossom.

Our boundaries are very often the dynamic that children need between us to be able to share their moods and feelings. So we want to keep practicing reasonable boundaries, sticking up for ourselves, while welcoming our children to disagree in whatever way that they do, as long as it’s not hurting us. And that’s the hardest part, right? Meaning they have a right to feel however they feel about our boundaries. It’s not, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” A parent shared with me that a teacher was saying that to her child. And no, that’s called stuffing our feelings. It’s that you’ve got a right to how you feel, and we’re reminding ourselves constantly, maybe, that them putting it out there is healthy and good. Much better for our child, and our relationship with them, than for them to hold it in.

As Susan David wisely shares—you know I always quote her here, I’m a big fan of her work, it’s very much in line with everything I believe. She says, “Research on emotional expression shows that when emotions are pushed aside or ignored, they get stronger. Psychologists call this amplification.” She also says, “When we push aside normal emotions to embrace false positivity, we lose our capacity to develop skills to deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.” And I believe she’s referring mostly to adults here, but all of this applies to children. Because we continue to have the same basic needs from birth until death: the need to have boundaries and know our place in the world, to express ourselves fully, the need to be in communion with ourselves, to be inner-directed, the need to feel capable that we can achieve things when we put the effort in, with lots of ups and downs in the process.

One more point, point five: connecting during caregiving. You hear me talk about that with babies and toddlers and maybe preschoolers, but this is a way to keep nurturing our connection with children throughout their life. And it does look a little different as children get older. Mealtimes is the obvious one, sitting down to a meal without having our devices out, having that time together. Sherry Turkle, who’s the author of Reclaiming Conversation and has done a lot of research on this topic of technology interfering with children’s development of empathy and our ability to connect with each other, she has some great ideas for helping us as a family to limit tech use at times like that. But she also said, I really love this, she said: you can have it be certain rooms, i.e., We’re never going to have tech devices in the kitchen or in the dining room. I didn’t do that with my family, but I thought it was a great idea.

So, mealtimes, bedtime rituals. One of my kids wanted me to lie there with them while they fell asleep, even up to the age of, I think it was 10. And you know what? I was available. We don’t have to do that, but I did it. Only one out of three wanted that. But I’m glad I did it, in retrospect. I’m not saying everyone should do that, but there are some things you can do. Read books, sing songs (until they begged me to stop), of course, we did that for years too. Have those goodnight rituals that are special between you.

Then so many things can be caregiving: Band-aids. Medicine. When kids ask for help with homework or studying for a test, I consider that caregiving, even though I know it’s also skill-building for them and everything. But when my children would ask for help studying for a test, I would leap on that, because I could. If I couldn’t, I wouldn’t. But as kids get older, there aren’t that many opportunities, like there are when they’re little, to connect in that way. And caregiving in all these realms is one of the main ways.

Seizing on those bedtime rituals, seizing on the mealtimes, help with studying for a test, and we used to laugh a lot. I’d be completely focused at those times, I would not have a tech device anywhere near me. Just with them. Shopping for clothes or whatever they need. You want me to go with you? I’m there. It’s an excuse to be with your child as you get older, as they get older and you get older. Helping them with combing and brushing their hair, hairstyles, detangling, make-up for the prom. Taking kids to the doctor or for a haircut. My kids are adults now and they want to go to the dentist with me. Yes! I’m there, I’m right there. And we’ll go get something to eat afterwards and mess our teeth up again. But it’s the best. It keeps that flame alive between us.

And then just simple things, like when my kids come into the house or I’m meeting them somewhere, I drop everything. I’m up, I’m going in for a hug, excited to see them. Those transitions, those transitional times, remain sensitive times for all of us. You’ve heard me talk a lot about how difficult transitional periods can be for young children or even just getting up and getting dressed and getting to school in the morning. Keep helping your child. Yes, they can dress themselves, but if they want a helping hand, they just want moral support while they’re doing it, we can try to be there. And if we can’t, not giving them a judgmental response, “You can do that yourself.” But just, “You wanted me there and I can’t. But next time.”

Because what children can do and what they want to do, what their real need is—which might be connection with us before they leave for the day—are two different things. So when we can, prioritize those activities. The same when I’m parting with my children, I try to jump up. And I mean, I always saw them off to school and everything, but my son’s living at home now, and I try to wake up and make sure I say goodbye to him before he goes off to work. And hello to him when he comes in the door. I stand up, I’m so excited. Basically, any excuse. That’s how it gets.

I know it feels overwhelming now, that you’re doing all this stuff and everybody needs you so much. And mommy, mommy or daddy, daddy, and you could barely take a free breath. Well, I’m not saying you should be happy because you’re not going to have that later and that you should feel bad about the times that you’ve missed. Absolutely not. However, just know that as you grow, you’re going to find these connection points still and find these areas to trust your child. And all of that is going to bring you so many surprises and delight, laughter and amazement, really, at how capable your children are.

And if you want to get on this track and you’re not quite there, you agree with some of it, you don’t agree with other parts of it—that’s okay. You can always step into trust, step into connection. Those are always available to us, and our children want those more than anything from us. So, it’s a win-win.

Now, for those of you who would still like to check out resources that are compatible with what I teach, but for older children, the first thing I usually ask people if I get a chance to respond to them is, what topics are you concerned about? Because that will help me to guide them. I do have a whole list of books that I recommend, that are in my books and recommendations section of my website, janetlansbury.com. There are books covering a variety of topics, and many of them pertain to older children. Also, many of these authors have been on this podcast. So, check out all my other podcasts, and I hope you find the help that you’re looking for.

And by the way, Mother’s Day is coming up, and I’ve got a great gift idea for you: my No Bad Kids Master Course. You can learn all about it at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

The post As Our Kids Get Older – 5 Ways to Continue Building Lasting Emotional Bonds appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “A Secret to Helping Our Kids Achieve (Advice for the New Year)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be talking about this running thread that’s through many of the issues that parents share with me. It’s actually maybe not so much in the issues themselves, but in my thoughts about how to address these issues. These are the concerns that we have with our children’s development of skills of all kinds. Could be social skills, cognitive or motor skills, manners, character traits. We worry about those, right? Especially when kids are seemingly unmotivated, they’re not making progress, or they seem disinterested in doing things that we know that they’re capable of.

Could be a lot of things like getting dressed, building with blocks, drawing, not being welcoming to our friends and family, seeming too shy or too bossy with peers, not using good manners as we wish them to. Not interested in learning letters or numbers or learning to read. Seeming unfocused when they play, moving from one thing to another, or seeming to focus too much on this one mundane task with a toy. And even motor skill development, like when our child is still not walking at a year-and-a-half or even before that, we worry and we wonder what we can do to help.

Often the problem, or at least one element of the problem, stems from this spot-on comment that my mom used to make as a grandma. She was an excellent grandma, so into it. And I remember her saying, with her great sense of humor, when she would maybe make overtures to a child or she would be in the room when someone else was doing it, Oh, come on, give me a hug! She’d say, “Ah, I know. Oops. I want it too much, right?” Or to the other person, “I think you want it too much.” When we want it too much, our children feel that. Even when we want it a lot, our children feel that. And that can be pressurizing. Just as with all of us, or maybe just most of us, pressure can be uncomfortable. It’s nerve-wracking, unsettling, and it doesn’t set us up to learn or perform at our best.

So yes, there are exceptions for sure, but for most children, at least in this impressionable time of their life, this more open-to-us, this sensitive time from infancy right through their early teens, they need us, they need to please us. It’s a basic survival instinct that they have. So that pressure, that expectation that we have makes everything harder for them and can even delay learning, affect self-confidence and sense of self. When children know they’re not quite pleasing us, it doesn’t feel good.

The other element that goes hand-in-hand with this is our children’s healthy development of autonomy. Wanting to be their own person, especially as they start to become toddlers, and then all the way through the teenage years. They’re driven to feel autonomous, to feel a little independent of us. Of course, they still want us desperately and they want to be the ones to decide when to be independent of us. But that can get in the way of what we want, right? Because when we want our child to be able to do this thing and our child will likely feel that coming from us, it can make this side of them that wants to be autonomous say, No, they’re not going to do it. And that’s why the toddler years can be so challenging for us as parents because all of a sudden something that our child can do or usually wants, and now they’re saying no to it. What’s that about? It’s about growing up, it’s about being their own person. And it’s very, very healthy. And ideally we can try to remember to see it that way, that sort of rejecting us or things that we want for them is really integral to their healthy development.

But this is why it can be a very hard time when we’re directing our child’s toilet learning or wanting them to do things socially or all these other skills. The need for autonomy can show up there and cause children to naturally want to resist. Sort of holding themselves back from things that they could do to unconsciously make this stand as themselves, as their own separate person from us. If you want it, then I have to say no to it. That’s why children, beginning as toddlers, seem to say no a lot. They’re asserting self in this—hopefully we can see it as positive—way.

So, wanting things too much, wanting our child to do this specific thing, focusing our attention on it, worrying about it, maybe. That doesn’t help our children or help us to get what we want. And so what do our kids want? What do they need from us to be able to flourish?

It’s actually pretty simple because if we think about it, it’s what we all want from our loved ones. We want others to not only accept us as we are wherever we are in our journey, we want to be accepted wholly and loved for that. Rather than our loved ones or especially our parents wishing for more or different or the next thing in our development. So this is very simple, but it can be hard. It can be hard as parents to trust where our child is right now.

And there’s not a lot of help around us, usually. We live in a society that’s achievement-oriented rather than process-oriented, which is the arguably much healthier way that our kids are naturally, as innately gifted learners and explorers. So most of us, we’re not prone to being comfortable with the status quo. When we’re dating somebody, everybody asks, “Oh, how’s it going? When are you going to get married?” Then we get married. “When are you going to have a baby?” We have a baby. “When are you going to have another one? Are you going to have another one?”

And even a lot of parenting advice that’s out there these days is achievement-oriented. If you say these five words, your child’s going to feel better. Or, play a silly game with your child, not because you’re in a fun, loving mood that you want to share with them, but to get them to brush their teeth. Recently there was a popular post going around that said something to the effect of, The best thing you can say to your kids is that whatever grades you get in school, I’m going to love and accept you just as much. Now, there’s nothing really wrong with this, but I couldn’t help but see this from a child’s perspective. And I believe to a child, this would come off as this very kind of surface and late-in-the-game kind of message. Why is my parent saying this? Why does this need to be said? They’ve been giving me this message, or the opposite of it, through all their actions for years and years ever since I was small. Are they saying it to try to convince themselves? Are they saying it because this is kind of a band-aid that they hope will fix the years of subliminal messages that they’ve been giving me? Like when they interrupted my play to quiz me, Where’s your nose? Tell me the numbers, the alphabet song. Or when they got way more excited with my interest in reading than they ever did when I made mud pies or just played in the mud without making anything.

Children need us to show rather than tell these messages, because everything we’ve done with them has been showing them how we feel. If we really do take an interest in where they’re at, if we feel that that’s not only enough, but cool. So it’s not that we were wrong to do or say those kinds of things, but if we want our kids to be motivated in a healthy manner, from a place of confidence and comfort in their skin, knowing that they are enough because we’re making a point to show them that. And we won’t be perfect at this, we’ll need to keep reminding ourselves that actions speak louder than words. They always have, they always will.

So what do we do? Let’s say we realize that we’ve unintentionally given our child a lot of achievement messaging or that we’ve been subtly pressuring them to develop a certain skill. How do we change? Where do we begin? First of all, always, with self-compassion. With forgiving ourselves for doing something normal that almost everyone does at least a little bit, because we don’t have support to do otherwise, really. And knowing that really we’ve only been hurting ourselves, in a way, by buying into what’s encouraged around us by the greater society, by our family and friends. Isn’t your child doing this enrichment yet? Oh, they like that? You’d better give them a lesson so they’ll get better at it. We have a lot against us when it comes to trying to trust and wholly accept our children as they are. A lot against us. We don’t have encouragement, and we need it. So that’s where the self-compassion comes.

And then I recommend taking a look at some of the particulars, these things that we want so much for our child. It can be different for all of us. It’s worth exploring, right? Because, really, these things that we want a lot, that maybe we want too much, they’re a window into ourselves. They’re things that we want that we didn’t get, that weren’t encouraged in us, or that maybe we were scolded or rejected around. With that kind of self-reflection, there’s a lot we can learn about what matters to us. That’s where the healing begins. And that’s where we can start to differentiate between our child’s path—which we really don’t control at all. We can only encourage and support and hold boundaries around as needed, but we can’t decide who they’re going to be, what kind of things they’re going to like, what they’re going to want to do with their lives. So that’s where we get a clearer view of our child’s path and our own feelings, our wishes, our self-criticisms, etc.

So just as an example, and actually this note that I received from a parent is part of what stimulated me to want to talk about this today. This question kind of exemplifies what I’m talking about:

Hello, Janet-

Your guidance has fallen in line with the way my ex-wife has shared parenting with me. This framework/philosophy has not only improved the entirety of my daughter’s remaining life, but has also made my life better.

In regards to your recent episode about assertiveness, I found it, ironically, lacking in assertiveness. I’ve been in martial arts since high school, so I’m familiar with assertiveness, and I’ve “trusted the process” while trying to encourage my daughter—who’s eight—to speak up and stand up for herself. The issue is her lack of proper assertion is now starting to result in negative outcomes from interactions in her life. There has been non-zero progress, but nearly as much backsliding. I’m concerned that trusting the process is, in this case, too lackadaisical and will be harder to correct as she gets older.

Thank you for your work, and I hope you can offer some type of more specific action.

I wrote back: “Hi, thanks for your support. Can you explain your situation? Your question is too general for me to understand what you are getting at.”

And he wrote back:

Yes, sorry for being vague. I view it as a broad issue. I noticed this morning you have an episode about a strong-willed child. My daughter is strong-willed. She’s often bossy and wants to lead play on the playground. I joke she’s going to be the activities director for cruises. Paradoxically, her speaking up for herself is a skill I’ve tried to work on for most of her life. If she’s feeling cold, if there’s something she’d like to get or do, etc., it’s been some effort to get her to express herself.

It came to a head recently on the playground. A boy hugged her from behind. It was an unwelcome hug. She did nothing. Later that day, he hit her. She did nothing. This has also resulted in her grabbing things out of the hands of others, and she’s lost her cool with me once. It seems so strange, such a smart, strong-willed little girl not being able to express herself and set boundaries when appropriate.

I’ve talked with her and she agrees that sometimes her not speaking up leads to her being frustrated with people or situations, so she lashes out. Her daily behavior is phenomenal. I don’t want to misrepresent her. It’s that this is unusual behavior and increasing in frequency. I’m doing my best to get her to recognize the times she speaks up and it makes things better. I’m also flat-out having talks about why it’s an important skill. But I’m wondering if there’s a particular thing that can help me get her more secure in asserting herself.

Hopefully this better explains things.

I love this note. I love the love that this parent has for their child and their deep interest in them, and it seems like he sees his daughter very, very clearly. And this is so interesting, right? Because here’s a strong-willed girl, he describes her as, who’s very strong, can be bossy, bright, and she’s not standing up for herself. And as he says, this is unusual behavior. So I guess like other mysteries that we’re trying to solve, when something’s unusual, that means something, right?

This dad says, “Her speaking up for herself is a skill I’ve tried to work on for most of her life.” So there’s a clue, right? There’s the first clue. This is a really important skill to this parent. I don’t know how it’s looked that he’s tried to work on this for most of her life, but she knows it’s important to him and he’s focusing on it. We could say maybe he wants it too much. So she knows that, and she’s probably feeling both of these elements that I brought up earlier. She’s feeling the pressure of that. Oh, I know he wants me to assert myself when this child does this with me. And I’m feeling that vibration from him. He’s talked about this with me a lot. It’s a big message. It’s a big learning he wants me to do. Uh oh, the spotlight’s on. I can’t do it. So there’s that.

And also the other. I think especially because this is a strong child. He wants me to do this so much, I have to say no. And I don’t think this is conscious at all. I just can’t do it. I can’t give him what he wants here because I am my own person and I’m not going to let him decide just because he wants something that I’m going to do it. So again, not a conscious process inside our child’s mind, but that’s the impulse. That’s what we set up when we want it too much.

And he notices this. He says, “It seems so strange, such a smart, strong-willed little girl not being able to express herself and set boundaries when appropriate.” The thing is, she’s sort of expressing herself and setting boundaries with him, in a way, in these situations. You’re not going to decide how I handle this. I’m not going to do something that I know pleases you even though it would please me as well. And then the frustration that comes from that resistant mode that she goes into and feeling the pressure, both, that makes her later want to lash out. It’s frustrating, I wanted to do this, but I couldn’t do it.

He says, “I’ve talked with her and she agrees that sometimes her not speaking up leads to her being frustrated with people or situations, so she lashes out.” He says, “I’m wondering if there’s a particular thing that can help me get her more secure in asserting herself.” Yes, I believe there is, and it’s what we all want. You didn’t feel like asserting yourself there. Interesting. And, So what. That attitude. And I would dial all the way back his talks with her about how important this is, the teaching that he’s doing. All of that has sunk in, but now it’s holding her back, I believe. And when he backs off and becomes totally accepting of where she is right now and what she’s doing and taking an interest in that. Interesting. This very strong-willed girl doesn’t want to confront in the moment with some of these behaviors. That’s interesting. It’s not a bad sign. It’s not an endgame. It’s not a direction we need to worry about. It makes sense when we understand the way children think and feel and how perceptive they are when it comes to what we want. And how they’re, in this very subtle way, maybe training us to want the child we have, where they are.

And from that place we can learn to walk this very fine line of balance between where children need our support and help and where it’s getting in their way. And it’s kind of a lifelong journey that we’re on, trying to figure this out. We’ll never be perfect at it, but it’s sort of what takes raising children to another level for us mentally. That we can engage in this really interesting challenge of supporting without wanting it too much and without taking over in a way that doesn’t help our child.

And what I would say to her if I was this parent or any parent who realizes they’ve been maybe pressuring their child in some way or creating that resistance without meaning to, besides dialing it back and just not doing that and really accepting our interesting child where they are right now, I would put it forward. Because she knows and we know that she knows and she knows that we know that she knows. So I would put it out there: “You know what, I’ve talked to you a lot about standing up for yourself and how important that is and how much I want you to do that. And I realized you’re going to do it when you want to, when you feel ready. And that’s really nothing to do with me. I trust you. You know what you’re doing. You’re totally capable. And when you want to do that, when you’re ready, you’ll do it. If you ever want my support or my ideas around it, just ask.” She’s eight years old, so we can definitely have a conversation like that. But I would have one even with a one- or two-year-old. Maybe a little bit simpler, but I would offer up, You know I’ve been doing this. I know I’ve been doing this. Whether it’s around potty training or whatever. “I’m going to trust you when you’re ready.”

But we have to believe it first. We have to get there first before saying those words. We have to mean it. This is where what I used to do a long time ago, acting, and parenting are similar. It’s not good unless you believe it. In that moment, you believe it. So this is real life and we can believe it, right? It should be easier to believe in this child that he says “her daily behavior is phenomenal,” whatever that means. Wouldn’t we all love a parent who feels like that about us? So there’s no reason not to trust this child.

I remember an example from my class with this adorable girl. She was in my class from the time she was a very young infant until around three years old. And her parents were amazing and they really got the trust thing, and they saw how capable she was from quite young. I mean, we all saw it, we see it with all the children in different ways. And there was no reason not to trust her. But one day she—and I can’t remember how old she was, but I think it was after she had turned one, some months after—she took a few steps, she started walking it seemed. But then, she went back to walking on her knees. I guess crawling, but not on her hands and knees, just on her knees, like straight up. I haven’t seen that many children do this. And of course the parents were a little worried. What’s going on? Why is she doing this instead of walking now? We know that she can do it. They didn’t want it too much, but they were naturally curious.

One thing I was able to point out to them, and that’s what these classes are about, and the gift of them really, is that we can point out to parents what she is doing and give them all the encouragement they need to keep trusting. I said, “Well, this is still working for her, on her knees. And look at the muscles she’s building here. And look how speedy she is, getting around on her knees. When she sees the reason that she really would rather be walking, she’ll be doing that again.” And sure enough, I don’t know, it was maybe like three or four weeks went by, and she was up and walking. Very solidly, because she had all the confidence, all the motivation, all the muscle development and balance that she needed. She’d worked on it, on her knees.

So for the next year and the next and the next and the next, let’s give our children an empowering, life-giving message: You know your journey better than I do. You’re enough as you are, not because I say these words to you, but because you know that I really believe it. And to help us believe it, maybe we can work on a message from—and now I’m really dating myself—John and Ken. They had a talk radio show for years. My mother listened to it, so it’s got to be ancient. They used to say at the end of every show, EGBOK. And EGBOK is an acronym for “Everything’s Gonna Be OK.” One of my children and I always end our messages and calls with EGBOK. So, EGBOK to you, it’s gonna be okay.

And I have an idea for you for starting the new year right. My No Bad Kids Master Course will help you to fully absorb and internalize my relationship-centered approach. You can check it all out at nobadkidscourse.com. And my books have both been bestsellers on Amazon for years: No Bad Kids and Elevating Child Care.

Happy New Year. We can do this.

UPDATE: The parent who sent me the email kindly responded to this podcast:

Hello again Janet,

I just heard the episode in which you addressed my email. Thank you so much for giving such an insightful and thoughtful response. 

I can absolutely see either scenario fitting with what’s going on inside her. But beyond that, you’re of course right about her doing things on her own time. 

She took slightly longer than normal to walk. She took so long to talk, we began to wonder when we should become concerned. She regularly is chill, and then surpasses any expectations. 

I do trust her, and I think your advice was great. 

Thank you again. I look forward to future episodes, and I wish the best for you and yours.

Thank you!

The post A Secret to Helping Our Kids Achieve (Advice for the New Year) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

It can be confounding when our children behave in negative ways after we’ve told them umpteen times it’s wrong. Surely they’re aware that we don’t approve! And yet, they repeat the behavior no matter how frustrated, annoyed, or angry we get. Janet offers her perspective on this dynamic while answering a question from the mom of a short-tempered 6-year-old. This boy’s father believes certain behaviors are simply unacceptable because their son is “old enough to know better,” but this mom isn’t as sure and wonders if Janet can clarify what they should realistically expect for a child their son’s age.

Transcript of “Shouldn’t They Know Better By Now?”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to address a concern that parents often share with me, and usually it’s in the form of questions like, At what age will my child stop doing these [fill-in-the-blank] impulsive behaviors? Or, When can I expect my child to be able to self-regulate? For instance, stop having tantrums, stop flying off the handle, stop losing self-control. When can we expect more consistent kindness or manners, or at least that our child stops lashing out at their sibling or yelling rude things when they’re upset? Shouldn’t they know better by now? The short answer to that one is yes, but as I’m sure you guessed, I also have a longer answer.

So yes, our children not only should know better, they actually do know better. From the time they’re born, children are already sensing our feelings and doing their best to try to adapt to them. This is basic human survival instinct. Children need us to feel okay and be accepting towards them. They sense they need to be in our good graces so we’ll fill their needs. Still, though, they can’t manage their discomforts and emotions enough to be those perfect babies for us. But we could say that even they “know better.” The very first time our baby flaps their hand at us or pulls our hair, they learn that this bothers us and it isn’t acceptable behavior. Which doesn’t mean they stop doing it, but if we can try to calmly block or just disallow the behavior without giving it a big, interesting reaction that children might tend to have the impulse to explore, they usually do stop.

So this isn’t about “knowing better.” It’s about how much control their thoughtful, reasonable center of their brain has over their behavior in any given moment. Certainly by the toddler years, but even infants, demonstrate self-regulation when all life’s elements are in their favor. They can do that. But in the early years especially, children are easily overwhelmed by internal developments, there’s so much rapid growth in these early years, along with stressors in their environment, threat detection, and other discomforts. And then, bye-bye, knowing better! And there they go, seeming to overreact, doing these annoying or destructive behaviors again. Reason leaves the building.

Now, does anybody besides me relate to this happening to us, even as adults? It happens to me all the time. And I love the way that my brilliant, generous, charismatic friend Mr. Chazz makes children’s behavior relatable to us as adults through his videos. He’ll remind us of things like, Hey, did you get that speeding ticket because you didn’t know better? Did you shout obscenities at people driving too slowly? Or what about that extra glass of wine that you know wakes you up at night, right? But you did it anyway. Or those chips or the chocolate that always makes you want more. Did we know better? What about yelling at your spouse, your kids, your friends, or in the office? What about that meltdown over something teensy that happens after we’ve had this long day and we just can’t take it anymore? We can find ourselves making these kinds of “choices,” but how thoughtful and conscious are they?

So what’s the answer to, When will children stop doing such and such? or, Why are they still doing this? It’s true that there’s a gradual maturation in the prefrontal cortex that finally matures around age 25 or so, and that helps us to regulate better. But still, for us and for children, it’s always relative. Our ability to act from our knowing place will always be relative to our comfort level, our inborn sensitivities, our temperaments, our moods, and our internal comforts, combined with the stressors we’re managing in our environment. And there isn’t an age cutoff for this, unfortunately, or we’d all be perfect angels by now. Which might even make life kind of boring, but that’s a whole other topic.

And why is this understanding important for us to grasp and make peace with? Because here’s a universal truth about caring for children: Our responses to children’s behaviors will stem from our perceptions and expectations. So if we’re finding ourselves and/or our children stuck in challenging patterns, in other words, our child keeps repeating those behaviors or the behaviors seem to worsen, chances are that our perceptions and expectations are at least a little bit inaccurate. And these misperceptions are causing us to feel and react in a manner that’s continuing or worsening the behavior. Because out of those misperceptions, we’re not giving our child the helpful response that they unconsciously seek. And instead our mis-response can make our child feel more distanced and alone, afraid maybe, uncomfortable. Which means more struggles with self-control and behavior.

Now maybe that sounds really complicated, but to offer a simple example: In my work with parents, often the most helpful feedback I can give them is assurance that their child’s behavior is typical, within normal range, for their developmental stage and for their current life situation and stressors that are going on—when I tell them that from my years of experience and training and research this behavior makes sense to me. And honestly, that’s just about every time with every kind of behavior. At least eventually, with enough information, it makes sense to me. And just that realization, and I totally get this, I’ve felt it myself about my own children, that Phew, okay, I’m not doing anything terribly wrong. There’s nothing I need to fear about my child here. This is just the way they’re reacting, reflecting, processing, and maybe adapting to everything that’s going on right now. That increases our comfort and makes it possible for us to be less fearful and more helpful as our children’s leaders.

So now here’s a question I received on Instagram:

I would love to hear about how to approach boundary-pushing in older children, six or so. My husband is convinced that since they have greater understanding of the world than babies and toddlers, that they should know better and that your principles don’t apply. I have yet to find an eloquent or even literate way of describing how it would still apply greatly.

So then I asked her if she could please be specific, and she replied:

He’s been very disrespectful in the way that he reacts to any scenario. He dislikes bedtime, chores, non-screen activity. There’s lots of talking back, tuning out, coming out of nowhere to reprimand us. Just generally very sensitive and reactive, which my husband sees as being too much for his age. I’m not sure exactly what our realistic expectations are for this age.

Okay, so generally I’d say when we have this mindset that there should be certain cutoffs for when our children should be doing this or doing that, or they should stop getting upset about small things, that they should be behaving a certain way at a certain age. The answer is, as I said, there’s really no set timetable for children to react a certain way. They always react out of what they’re feeling. And this general idea that I recommend absorbing is that our children’s behavior is a reflection of their comfort level. So when children are uncomfortable for different reasons, then they’re going to have more defiant-type behavior (if children have those tendencies). They’re probably going to have more emotional behavior and, as this parent says, they’ll be more sensitive and reactive to things. So I don’t know why this boy is reacting as he is, with this information that she’s given me, but one reason could be that he’s feeling his dad’s disapproval of him. And maybe this is anger or maybe fear. Dad may be afraid that his son isn’t going in the right direction, and the son is picking up on that. So that’s one thing that I could say for sure from this information, there could be other things.

But the behaviors that this mom is describing, they all sound like they’re within the normal realm of the way a six-year-old or a five-year-old, maybe even a four-year-old or an eight-year-old, has a tantrum, has a reaction to a limit, has a disagreement with a limit or a with a direction that we give them. And really, children ideally need to have a right to have their reaction throughout the years. So we’ll want to be able to confidently set a limit, but then accept that our child needs to be able to say, I don’t like that limit. And that basic dynamic continues. What this parent is describing can be what it looks like with a six-year-old child. He’s snarling back and saying, I don’t like you guys! Talking back, tuning out, I’m not going to pay attention to you! This is similar to the toddler that’s “not listening.” They are listening, but they’re just getting stuck in this impulse to resist. Making that choice, not a very conscious choice, to not jump up when their parent wants them to do something or to stop doing something.

And at six years old, they’re still young human beings, they’re still easily overwhelmed. And when they’re uncomfortable, they’re going to have messy, unpleasant behaviors. So believing as this husband does, and it’s very understandable, Hey, he’s six years old, he should shape up and cut this out. Certainly makes sense. But the problem is that this lack of acceptance of the stage his child is at right here is what’s continuing the problematic behavior. And this is why it’s the most helpful for us if we can try to remember to come from a place of curiosity: I wonder what’s going on with my child? Rather than having this expectation that our child should be whatever, and by doing so, preventing ourselves from being able to see what’s going on.

When we follow this natural inclination that most of us have as adults to understand things by labeling them, whether we’re doing it positively or negatively, but especially when it’s negative, we’re going to miss out on understanding. It’s like we’re closing doors that we really want to keep open, perceiving something as fixed. They’re a bully, or they’re shy, or they’re too aggressive or they’re too passive. We close off our ability to understand and to be able to see how to help make things better. So we want to try not to impose labels, that judgment that our child will then feel. They’ll sense that, they’ll pick up on that, and it has a chance of becoming a self-fulfilling prophecy for them.

Now for this situation, with the little information I have, it’s kind of hard. But it may be that the mother or both the parents aren’t being as confident in their limit-setting. Because when we talk about things like bedtime, first of all, that’s a transition. Always hard. It’s the hardest one of all, because it’s the end-of-the-day transition, when everybody’s tired, especially our child. It’s not a time when we want to give options that there’s something else they could do at that time besides be in their bedroom. We can’t force a six-year-old or any child to fall asleep, but we can say, You’re not having screens now. There won’t be screens in your bedroom. We’re not going to let you have more drinks or give you more attention when we’ve done our bedtime routine and we’re done. This is your bedtime. Our job is done for the day. Instead of getting sucked into trying to convince our child of our point of view, trying to get their agreement. All those things that keep our child holding on because we’re still holding on.

I know that’s very oversimplified, but I wonder if the parents feel positive about setting limits to free their child to fall asleep, in this case. That finality that we feel with that limit is really important. And a big part of that certainty and that finality that children need is when we’re also fine with him saying, No, no, but I don’t want to do this and I want my screens! Then we can even acknowledge, Oh wow, you don’t want to do that. You really don’t want to go to bed now, or you don’t want to stop using your screens. Whatever it is, that’s okay with us. We accept how you feel. We really do. And we don’t mind when you say that. We’re confident enough in our position, we can handle that pushback. In fact, we expect it.

Not giving power to these things that he’s doing, like talking back. Instead seeing this as, That’s your reaction. That’s okay with us. You know, it doesn’t hurt us in any way that you say no. We’re still, as the parents that love you and that you need to help take care of you, we’re the ones deciding here. I know that talking back can feel very threatening, especially if we feel like we’re seeking that agreement from our child, which I would honestly give up on and let go of, even with a child this age. And so maybe we end up repeating ourselves. We’ve got to make it so clear, No, this is what you’re supposed to do. Don’t you get that? Appealing to what he knows.

But that’s not the part that’s getting expressed here because he does “know better.” He knows that it’s bedtime. He knows that he’s not supposed to do this, that, or the other. He knows the parents don’t want him to talk back, but he’s doing it anyway. So that becomes wasted energy on our part, leading very quickly, if we didn’t already start that way, to frustration, anger, and annoyance. Ah, this child, they should know better. Why are they acting like this? We’re getting caught up in it. Instead of seeing it for what it is, an immature person that we love that does know better, but they’re just not doing it right now. They can’t. Accepting that.

This child sounds like a very strong child, an alpha child, which is all to the good, ultimately. With those children especially, they need us to be even more certain and to expect, of course, we’re going to get pushback. If we can shrug our shoulders, accept, not let it matter to us, not let it shake us: That’s where he is. This is where we are. We’re not going to pull ourselves down into bickering about this because it’s wasted effort. He’s not going to happily accept everything that we decide. It’s not our job to change that. And it’s better for him to share these feelings that he needs to share because, just as with a younger child, their reactions are not really even related to screens or bedtime or anything in particular, so much as those are tipping points. And what they’re expressing are themes, feelings, and relational dynamics that they’re processing. So their reaction is magnified by, Oh, I know my parents get angry at me here and I’m absorbing those scary feelings from them. Or, I don’t like some things that happened today. Or, I’m exhausted. I’m just over the edge and I’m just venting to the people I’m closest to, the people I trust the most. So let him blast and whatever he says, you can allow and acknowledge. You’re still going to stick with your limit.

So with the screens, children need a lot of clarity around that because just like for all of us, screens are kind of addictive, right? There’s a lot of temptation there. So I would be clear, certain, comfortable, and expect a lot of pushback. Be ready for it. It’s not going to be quiet acceptance most of the time. I think that’s a fantasy that we can have, but we’re not going to get that. We’re not going to get, Sure, okay, you’re the parents and of course I’m going to do what you say. You’re right! And really it wouldn’t be healthy for a child, especially a child like this, with this kind of temperament, to just give it up. Instead, we’re going to get a lot of pushback. That’s what they’re supposed to do. So instead of seeing this as a red flag or a problem or a sign that he’s not where he should be, I would see it as nothing that can threaten you at all as parents if you don’t let it, and really healthy.

And I would let him tune you out all he wants as well, but you’re still going to stick to those limits. So one of the examples she gave was chores. Now with chores, we do have to remember to be polite. Which we often forget with children, especially if we start out a little annoyed with them because we’re expecting, Oh, they’re not going to do this and I’ve got to nag and I don’t like nagging. Which is why I didn’t insist on too many chores with my children, that’s just me. But they need that politeness and just a reminder with a very light touch. And I believe it will help us to have low expectations. I wouldn’t expect any help at all at the end of a school day, for example, because children get drained. It’s a lot for them.

And it definitely won’t help our cause to make these voluntary activities into power struggles. We are going to lose those struggles, because doing chores is voluntary and we want to be able to see this bigger picture that we’re going to have a much better chance of gaining our child’s cooperation if we aren’t getting into a fight with them about it every day. If we’re saying something like, Oh, just a reminder my love, could you please help us empty the dishwasher? and maybe want to add, As soon as you’re done, we’ll have our dinner. So making it a part of the routine like that, very light and polite. Matter of fact. And we’re open to doing it with them, ideally. So we’re not trying to force an issue that we really don’t have the power to control. Instead, we’re nurturing that relationship where children want to be helpful to us because they’re part of a family unit where they’re unconditionally accepted.

That doesn’t mean we accept all their behavior, but we accept their stage of life. We accept that they’re human and easily overwhelmed and won’t want to do everything that we ask them to do. Just like we don’t. I mean, I don’t like brushing my teeth at the end of the day when I’m tired. I do it, but I’m a grown-up. So it’s that bigger picture, that relationship of acceptance and not getting threatened and not getting our back up about this little stuff. Seeing it for what it is, that’s what’s going to help make children agreeable in the long term, and that’s what we want.

This parent says their child seems to come out of nowhere to reprimand his parents. Again, that sounds like maybe he’s trying to see if the parents are going to give this little guy power there to upset them. He’s checking it out, and maybe they’ve given these kinds of behaviors power and some negative attention and things like that. But I really wouldn’t. I wouldn’t give that behavior any kind of power over you. Maybe hear the feelings behind what he is saying, but not make a big deal out of this. That’s what makes it go away. You know, when a six-year-old is trying to boss us around, we could have a sense of humor about that: No, I’m not going to do that, but thanks for asking.

So at the end of her comment, she says she’s not sure exactly what are the realistic expectations. And the realistic expectations are, Is he capable of doing chores? Is he capable of following directions? Yes, he’s capable of all those things, but being capable and wanting to do them in the moment, or even being able to do them in that moment, for children are two different things. That second part is the part that requires really confident empathic leaders who aren’t intimidated by what comes out of a six-year-old’s mouth.

And I think it will help to take a deeper look, coming from this very open-minded place. Nothing to fear here, looking at what’s going on in the dynamics with both of these parents and their son. Are they being clear enough? Are they being confident in their limits? Are they okay with him disagreeing? Are they still seeing him as a little person that adores them and has only been around for six years and really needs leaders that are above this, that can rise above all this petty stuff and not be insulted the way we would be with a peer or someone that was on our level of maturity? So a reasonable expectation is that when he is feeling really comfortable, he’ll accomplish a lot and he’ll be much more cooperative. And when he’s not as comfortable, with his leaders or in himself or something else in his environment, it’s going to be harder for him. It’s going to be rough, there will be grumbling and messiness. Accepting all of that is what he needs at all ages.

Children thrive when we accept them, meeting them right where they are and trusting that there’s always a reason. And none of them are fatal flaws in our children, or something we’re doing wrong. It’s a process. Our relationship with our children is a process and their development is a process. And we can always switch gears. We can always apologize for reactions that we’ve had and keep reminding ourselves that he’s not mature. Yes, he can be very capable, so can a one-year-old, so can a two-year-old. But he can also be snarly, reprimanding, reactive, a side that most of us still have as adults in some form.

So I hope that answers the question. And I’m not sure if that’s going to be what this dad wants to hear or if it’s going to make any difference with him, but this is what I’ve learned and I really hope it helps.

And there’s more help on the way—my new No Bad Kids Master Course!  This immersive course gives you all the tools and perspective you need to not only understand  and respond effectively to your children’s behavior but also build positive, respectful, relationships with them for life! Check out all the details at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Shouldn’t They Know Better By Now? appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

In this week’s podcast, Janet breaks format slightly by sharing back-and-forth interactions she’s had with listeners and her reflections about these exchanges. In the first, a parent eloquently describes a revelation about his children’s challenging behaviors and how they can bring out his best self. The second exchange explores the nuances of navigating boundaries and the messages we unintentionally give children by walking on eggshells vs. welcoming their feelings. Janet connects these discussions by noting how they both express what putting love into action really means with our kids.

Exciting news: Janet’s “No Bad Kids Master Course” is available now at: NoBadKidsCourse Check it all out and receive an introductory discount!

Transcript of “Love Doesn’t Mean Walking on Eggshells”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be doing something completely different. I’m sharing some correspondence back and forth between me and some people that reached out to me. In one case, it’s a comment on Instagram that I decided to give a long, drawn-out answer to. And I’m sharing these in hope that they’ll clarify some things, get a little deeper into the nuances of some of the issues that we have as parents. And I guess also kind of to let you into my world a little bit. I must love my job a lot because, as busy as I’ve been lately, I still get certain comments or notes that I feel compelled to respond to, because I want to explain. I want to help people understand the view that I’m sharing. And I believe this episode will help you clarify your role with your children and frame boundaries, these things that are really hard for us to do sometimes, in the most positive manner.

Okay, so first I am going to read to you an email that I received. Here it is:

I’m a dad to an extremely impulsive four-and-a-half-year-old and an extremely sensitive two-year-old, with baby number three due in three months. So you can imagine we have an exhausting house at times. As I’ve been listening to your podcast, I’ve come to understand parenting in a new way and wanted to share it with you.

It goes like this: Everything my child does is a different way of asking me, What does love mean? Thinking about parenting this way has completely changed my perspective and given my parenting a purpose. What does love mean when it’s time to clean up, but I say no and keep playing? What does love mean when I’m sick and wake up crying at 3:00 a.m.? What does love mean when I can’t stop grabbing things off the counter? What does love mean when we lay in bed talking at night? What does love mean when you tell me not to hit the TV with a toy and I grin at you while doing it one more time? What does love mean when mommy has morning sickness, but I’m hyper, playful, and mischievous? What does love mean when I’m having a meltdown, when I scrape my knee, when my sibling takes my toy, when I’m scared of monsters, when I’m supposed to take a nap, but instead take out every single piece of clothing from my drawers and throw it on the floor— again? I know I’m not supposed to bang the kitchen cabinets open and closed, but what does love mean when I do it anyway? What if I do it when we’re being playful together or when you’re busy making dinner or when I’ve already just done something wrong? When you’re in the middle of disciplining my sibling, when I’m already feeling mad about something else? The list goes on.

I think this is such a beautiful way of looking at my interactions with my children. It’s also a huge responsibility knowing that everything I do is a different way of answering that question for my kids. How I handle it in the good and bad times, or when they’re acting up, will define what love means for them for the rest of their life. How do I handle it when I’m already stressed or impatient or frustrated or exhausted from work is defining what love means for them, and they’re listening carefully. So thank you for your wisdom and advice and guidance. It has put me in a position to be really intentional about how I handle the day-to-day moments with my kiddos. I’m not always perfect, of course, and then I get to show them what love means when I need to apologize.

Adam

Here’s what I wrote back to Adam:

Dear Adam,

I love this beautiful perspective. What a lucky family you have. I wish everyone understood discipline this way. Unfortunately, people might also think that love is spanking and other punishments to teach right and wrong, et cetera. You obviously don’t, but maybe there’s something you could add to this that would make that clearer. I have a quote from my book, “Boundaries are one of the highest forms of love,” and I believe that 100%. I’ve seen proof time and again. Again, your family is so blessed to have you.

And Adam wrote back:

Thank you for your feedback. It’s funny that you bring up the different answers to, What does love mean? That’s the double edged sword of parenting, right? My wife and I are defining what love means to our kiddos. It’s solely within our power to decide if the message they subconsciously internalize is: love is manipulation, intimidation, fear, and painful consequences. Or, love is patient, empathetic, grace-filled, and affirming. Our kiddos are going to get an answer to their question, whether we’re intentional about it or not. I can scream, spank, banish to a bedroom, and force the behavior I want, or I can connect, listen, guide, and still expect the behavior as I lead them with my hand on their back. The confident momentum you talk about a lot. Either way, I’m going to hold my boundary, whatever it is, but I’ve got to be okay with the picture of love I’m painting in my child’s mind. And you’re right, it is unfortunate that some parents do define love for their kids through spanking and punitive, arbitrary punishments, maybe unintentionally or maybe because they think they’re providing a good definition of love. But when my kiddos look for a spouse in 20ish short years, the person they pick will be a reflection of their internalized sense of what love means. I hope they have a healthy perspective by then.

To clear things up in my original message, I would add this paragraph: I can define love for my children one of three powerful ways. I can generally do nothing, be passive, inattentive, and permissive. I can lose my temper, scream, spank, intimidate, and manipulate. Or I can connect, attune, regulate, empathize, and guide. Our parents likely defined love for us in one of these ways. I know which definition of love I hope to embody for my kiddos.

So that was that exchange with Adam. What an amazing parent and person, right? So now I would like to share an exchange that I ended up having, spontaneously, on Instagram. A parent responded to last week’s episode, Weird, Worrying Behaviors That Our Child Keeps Repeating. So in that episode, I responded to notes from a few different parents, but the last one was from a parent whose daughter was turning four. She was going to have a birthday party, and the little girl had expressed that she would like to invite two of her good friends this time. I guess usually it’s been a family affair, just with relatives. But she offered that up and her parent seemed like she wasn’t that sure, but her daughter persisted, so she did go ahead and invite the friends. Then this happened. This parent says:

Tonight she’s been unsettled and unable to sleep. She’s called me into her room multiple times. She asked me if I could talk, so I laid in bed with her as she told me she no longer wanted the two girls to be invited to her party, that she wanted me to contact their parents and uninvite them. I just listened calmly as she told me in various ways that she’d like to take back the invitation. I know that she’s probably nervous and that this party is totally foreign to her. It’s probably scary anticipating something she doesn’t know anything about. No matter how much we plan, who can reliably prepare a four-year-old on what to expect? And I know it’ll be overwhelming with grandparents and family wanting to love on her. My question is, what do I do? Do I honor her feelings?

So that’s the gist of it. And my response was:

The key is to welcome your daughter’s understandably wound-up feelings, but not accommodate them, because that gives an unintended message: When you feel uncomfortable or in conflict, you need me to fix that for you. I don’t feel safe when you are upset and demanding. When in truth, these mixed feelings she’s having are a normal part of life. If she disinvites friends, she will likely regret that too. So the answer I recommend is to hold the boundaries while welcoming the feelings however she shares them. Something like, Ah, unfortunately, disinviting people isn’t an option because that’s hurtful and unkind. I hear you, though. It’s normal to change your mind or have second thoughts about a decision. You wish we could disinvite them. You wish they weren’t coming. But just reflecting back what she’s actually saying, not adding on.

And I went on to say:

The more solid you feel about this decision/boundary and the more confident you feel about allowing her to blast you about it, the sooner this will blow over. I can almost guarantee you she’ll be glad she had her friends there. But if you’re uncertain or go at this hoping to please her in the moment, this can become more about the two of you and something she needs to keep pushing and testing, even at the party. Hope that makes sense.

So I had written that back to this parent before sharing that exchange on my podcast last week, and when I did, the parent gave me a short note back:

Welcome them, not accommodate them. Such a great reminder. I appreciate you diving in and going into detail for me.

So that was that. So then on Instagram, another parent commented:

I love your work. I’ve listened to every single one of your podcasts at least once. And to say that your teachings have been invaluable is an understatement. However, for the first time ever, I actually disagreed with some of your advice today, and I’d be interested to hear your feedback.

It was regarding the young girl who was anxious at night because she had changed her mind about inviting a couple of friends to a birthday party. You emphasized a lot about not wanting to be unkind to the other children, but I’d be inclined to disagree. I think that at three years old, you can make a decision and then realize that it wasn’t the right decision. And if that results in feelings of anxiety, I think it’s our job to help ease that for our kids, even if that means uninviting some kids to a party. I am 100% for allowing kids to experience upset, disappointment, rejection, et cetera. But the thought of a three-year-old dreading her birthday party in order not to upset people doesn’t sit right with me, especially as I’m always trying to teach my children not to go against our guts to please others. I know it was mentioned that maybe she would have regretted it if she didn’t invite them, but I’m not certain that’s the case. My daughter is extremely sensitive, and if she had realized that she made a mistake by inviting her friends, I know 100% that, for whatever reason, she didn’t want them there. Hopefully I’ve explained this clearly.

I had this incredible urge to write her back. Instagram, to me, isn’t really conducive to these long conversations, but I couldn’t resist. So I said:

I’m so glad you shared this feedback with me. You really got me thinking, which I love. Here are some thoughts I have about that particular situation.

First, I took note of the fact that this wasn’t the parent’s agenda to invite the friends, but the daughter’s, and the daughter persisted in her request and decision: “This year, she expressed she’d like to invite two girls from her class. I said that sounded good, and we moved about our day. When it came time to fill out invitations, she mentioned the two girls from her class again. Again, I acknowledged and made sure to make them invitations. When I let her know that they RSVP’d yes over dinner tonight, she was excited.”

Then, as you noted, she changed her mind. But honestly, I never sensed dread at all, but anxiety, which is par for the course for a child anticipating their birthday party. To me, it sounded like she began focusing her nervousness on that one decision she had made, which is what children and all humans tend to do when we’re excited, anxious, whatever. We doubt ourselves, question everything, sometimes obsess on one specific thing. I do this. As this was something new for this child, inviting friends, it made a lot of sense to me that she might focus on questioning that aspect. I didn’t suggest that she would regret not inviting her friends, but that once she did and was happy about that at first and then later changed her mind, she might well regret disinviting them.

And that brings up the main point I want to make, and maybe where we are seeing this differently. Where would you draw a line? Where would the boundary be for you? If the friends were disinvited and then the girl regretted that and wanted to change her mind again, would you then re-invite them? What if she focused her anxiousness on a particular family member who was set to attend? Should they be disinvited? Or what if her nerves about the party made her want to call the whole thing off? Would that be a decision to leave up to her too? In other words, for me, this is an instance of a child needing help from an adult to navigate, i.e. set a boundary, around a decision that originally came completely from her.

I would trust that innocent voice that told her she’d enjoy sharing her birthday with her friends this year over the birthday nerves voice. I would not be concerned about disappointing her friends or upsetting them at all. My concern would be leaving a child high and dry when they have worked themselves up to a state that makes thoughtful decisions really, really hard. Children say a lot of things they don’t mean when they’re having strong feelings. My sense is that this child might be disappointed in herself at her birthday because she canceled the friends. And that’s where I would be protective and try to be the adult in the room. If she was coming from calm thoughtfulness when she said, I don’t think having my friends there is a good idea, that would be another story. But this is also about knowing our child, and I’m sure you know yours better than anyone.

Okay, so then this parent kindly replied back to me:

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. This is also interesting to read and has made it much more clear in my mind the reasons you felt it’s so important for the boundary to be set. I loved what you said about hearing the child’s innocent voice over the birthday nerves voice, and that children say a lot of things they don’t mean when they’re having strong emotions. I’ve always realized this was the case when children were feeling angry or upset, but hadn’t considered that it would be the same when they were feeling anxious.

And then she added: P.S. Dreading was the wrong word for me to use.

So all of that exchange is on my Instagram page. And then, just in case, I decided to reach out again to ask that original parent of the soon-to-be four-year-old for an update on how the birthday went.

And the parent said:

Her party was great. She was thrilled to see her friends. She was actually disappointed one couldn’t make it due to the weather.

It’s also worth mentioning that following your simple advice, Welcome feelings, don’t accommodate them, has helped in so many other interactions with my now four-year-old. I didn’t realize that I was walking on eggshells a lot of the time, trying too hard to make her world positive and happy, which is both unrealistic and exhausting. I think within myself, I was afraid of conflict or calling her out, probably a reflection of having a mother that enjoyed conflict and calling me out. Whether we have a conflict or a meltdown or strong negative feelings, I repeat, Welcome, don’t accommodate, in my head. It’s become my mantra. In doing so, she has a clear leader, I have firm boundaries, and we both seem to communicate better. I feel a million times more confident. I think so many parents that follow respectful parenting have this blurry line of trying not to be a “mean, authoritative figure” that we lose sight that we are their biggest teachers. We need to allow all feelings to flow and take the opportunity to teach whenever we can.

Wow, I feel like the luckiest person in the world to be able to be in communication with these thoughtful, insightful, eloquent people. And for me, this all circles back to Adam’s note, What does love mean? What does love mean when I’m anxious, in nervous anticipation, questioning everything, indecisive? For most of us, being loving could mean getting drawn into our child’s feelings and stuck in that awful suffocating space of discomfort that can seem like it will never end. We’ll want to resolve this for them, right? We just want our kids to feel better. That’s being a caring parent.

And then maybe out of that passionate love for our child, we do the brave, really awkward thing of going back to those parents of those children and telling them that they shouldn’t come after all. But then later, maybe not until the actual party’s there or even afterwards, maybe our child expresses their regret that the friends weren’t there. And how hard is it for us not to want to snap back, Well, you were the one that told me you didn’t want them. How disappointing and discouraging that could be for us, right? And maybe even make us resent our kids a little? Understandable. It’s the same as if our angry tantruming child says, Go away! I don’t like you! I never want to see you again! Do we hold them to those kinds of decisions? Or maybe, I hate all of these toys! I don’t want them anymore. Do we give all those toys away? And then when our child asked for them again, Well, you said you didn’t want them. We gave them away. We can’t take everything children say in a state of emotion as fact. But instead, we can be the adults in the room that see beyond the moment to that bigger picture, understanding our child’s immaturity and what help and love really look like when they’re struggling.

And yes, this thing about walking on eggshells. I remember feeling this way, and so many parents mention this to me in consultations, in notes. Try turning this around and imagining how it feels to be a child when your parent, this tower of power in your life, this pillar of strength, is walking on eggshells around you. How can that make you feel safe and comfortable? Feels like there’s something to be afraid of, right? Because our parent is acting in that tentative way out of these beautiful intentions: We don’t want to be the mean guy. We don’t want to be the mean person. We want our child’s world to be happy and shiny and without all these explosions and discomforts that they might have. But that doesn’t help children to feel their own positive power. Instead, it feels like they’re very powerful in a kind of scary way. They’ve got their parent scared.

This is the looking beyond the surface that actually makes our experience as parents much richer and more interesting. But it’s challenging. That’s where the answers are, though. They’re not in words that we say or our child says, or in certain actions that we’re taking. It’s really this understanding and connecting from that place of intimacy, that knowing place, or at least that curious place that wants to know.

Again, I want to thank all these parents for sharing with me and engaging with me and giving me a chance to explain myself. I value all of your viewpoints so much. So please keep them coming. I wish I could offer a personal response to every single one. Unfortunately, that’s not possible.

But I do have something now that just feels good to finally get it out there in one whole package. And that’s my Master Course, where I teach respectful discipline, boundaries, helping children when they need our help. All the elements that we need to absorb this deeply for ourselves. And many of you have noted, we don’t have that many models out there around us of what it looks like to frame boundaries as love, as Adam does. So if you haven’t already, I hope that you’ll check out my No Bad Kids Master Course, because there’s a lot of modeling going on there, including many actual demonstrations. And this is all designed to give you self-confidence so you can stand tall and be proud of the way that you’re parenting. Be proud of the way that you’re engaging with your children and the relationships that you’re building with them. So anyway, if that interests you, it’s at nobadkidscourse.com. Or you can always go to my website, janetlansbury.com. Tons of free information there for you, tons. And you can also get information about the Master Course.

Thank you so much for listening to and supporting this podcast. We can do this.

The post Love Doesn’t Mean Walking on Eggshells appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Lessons, Sports, and Hobbies: A Child-Led Approach”

Hi. This is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today, I’m going to be talking about an approach that I believe in for handling our children’s extracurriculars as they grow, so lessons, sports, clubs, and other activities. How can we help them navigate these and how can we navigate them ourselves as parents with our own limited resources and time? How can we make the most of these types of opportunities for our children?

I think one of the reasons I’ve hesitated to broach this topic… Well, I guess I have in other podcasts touched on it, but I haven’t really hit this topic head-on because, honestly, I feel like my approach is very unique in that I’m really the only one, even within the communities or people I know who studied with Magda Gerber or study her approach, or follow this way of parenting, I’m sort of the only one that believes in this so strongly, in what I’m going to share.

I see this way of approaching extracurriculars as a very natural extension of what Magda Gerber said in her first principle, that we can have basic trust in an infant as an initiator, an explorer, and a self-learner. They know themselves better than we know them. One of the joys of parenting, of course, is that we get to learn about them.

That’s one of the big benefits of this approach I’m going to share. I’m going to call it the “wait” approach. Just as we waited for our baby to show us what they’re going to be reaching for, what they want to do with that object, whether they even want that object or they’re just reaching out for another reason, checking out the distance between that ball and how far their arm can reach, that we’re not making assumptions about children in their play, that we’re allowing for that wait, that openness on our part.

Instead of saying: Oh, let me give that to her. She must really want it. She’s reaching out for it, we wait to see what they’re actually wanting to learn about rather than me saying, “Here’s some cool toy that I think you should want to learn about right now.” Maybe if I have new toys, I’m just putting them in my child’s play area for them to discover and decide to choose, so they’re not getting this subtle feeling for me that this is what I should want to do right now, rather than what I really want to do.

It’s encouraging inner direction. When we take that approach, it makes for so many wonderful surprises. I thought for sure my child was going to do that with the blocks. Instead, they lined them all up, or who knows. Maybe they were listening to the sound that the block made by hitting different things in their play area, hitting the wall, hitting the floor, hitting another toy.

We’re opening up to seeing our child a little more clearly. We can do that with their extracurriculars. Instead of saying to our child, “Do you want to try this or do you want to try that?” we can actually wait until the idea comes from them. I mean, that’s the really hard part, I guess.

This doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with giving your child options, but it’s important to understand how influential we are as parents. We are very powerful to our children, and the need to please us is strong, even when they’re toddlers and they’re rejecting us or they’re teenagers and they’re pushing us away because developmentally they have to do that to individuate from us. Underneath it all, they really want us to be happy with them. They really want us to be proud of them. When we’re offering suggestions like tee-ball, or, “Don’t you want to play the piano?” or, “Do you want to try this?” even just offering those can sometimes… With some children, it can indicate: My parent wants me to do this. But if we wait for our child to actually share their wish with us or their idea with us of something that they want to do, and, of course, if we can make that happen — we may not be able to with the resources that we have or the time that we have. But if we can, then it really pays off. Here are some of the ways:

We never waste our money or our time signing children up for things that they end up not enjoying, that we end up having to maybe coax them to, or drag them to, or maybe they get there and they don’t participate. All of these things parents share with me can be avoided if we really leave it up to our children to be the ones to tell us what they want to do. Because they know.

In my experience with three children and with the other parents I know that follow this approach, they always benefit. Even if they end up not staying with it for that long, they always benefit from it when it’s their choice. It’s like the way that we choose to take a course rather than feeling like we have to take this course to get our degree or to get the job that we want. When we actually want to take the course, we get so much more out of it. When we want to learn a new hobby or a sport, we get excited about that. We’re engaged, and it’s that engagement that causes us to learn so much more, and be encouraged as a learner, so we actually enjoy the process of learning. Besides learning that specific subject, we’re gaining confidence in our abilities, in our choices, and validation that learning, which is such an important aspect of life, is rich, fun, and exciting.

We’re all born with the ability to do this. But as a child, those messages that come from inside of us, those messages of what we want to do can get a little muddled when we want to do it because our parent is smiling about it, or because our parent seems to think that it’s cool or that we should want to do it.

I’ve never known my children to come up with an idea that wasn’t valid for them at that time, something that would actually enrich them. These are called enrichment, these activities. They’re enriching if our child is drawn to them. But if not, they can be a source of disinterest. They can maybe be a source of feelings of failure and disappointment in themselves.

Another benefit for us, just on a practical level… If you’re anything like me, setting boundaries… I know I talk about it all the time, and that’s because I had to learn this. It’s not my natural way to be a boss, to be a leader with children, to want people to do things that they’re saying they don’t want to do or stop them from doing things that they do want to do. Even though I know how important it is, and I really had to step up and learn all this, I have a limited amount of, I guess, you could call it “boss juice.” If I had to use up some of that juice on getting my kids to go to practice, getting them to go to a class that I signed them up for for six weeks, getting them to stay on that team to finish their commitment, if all of that was up to me, I couldn’t do it. I couldn’t. The place that I have to go in myself to step up to try to make my child do something when they’re pushing back, I find it exhausting.

But when we wait, when we use this wait philosophy, and allow children to choose, and allow them to navigate this journey, which is really a life journey and a journey of their passions, their essence exploring itself, then I get to go along for the ride. Just like I do when I practice observing and being responsive in children’s play and don’t put myself in the position of being the teacher or entertainer. This can continue. This is my favorite part of parenting, so of course, I wanted it to continue, but also because I just don’t want to be that person trying to drag kids. I’ve worked with so many parents that have gotten themselves stuck there, and it’s not fun. To my mind, it’s not necessary, and we can wait right from the beginning and not get them started on something that is a little bit more on our agenda than theirs.

The coolest surprise is in the things that children choose. Just like the way that they play so differently than we might expect, they’ll surprise us with their choices in extracurriculars. This can be outside of school as children get older or it can be choices that they make at that school. Did they want to be on this team? Or what language did they want to choose to study? Any time that they have choices in their learning, I believe in honoring that and opening up those green lights for them, because there are so many red and yellow lights. The more green lights we can give children, the easier it is for them to accept the red and yellow lights.

We get to learn about them, see their choices, be surprised, sometimes amazed, get these glimpses of their essence.

It’s questionable how appropriate it is for a child to start taking a lesson when they’re only two, or three, or even four. They’re still benefiting so much from their self-directed play. Lessons or sports can take time away from that.

For children of all ages, free play is therapeutic. It gives them the opportunity to assimilate all the experiences, including educational experiences that they’ve had. It allows children to daydream, learn to entertain themselves with less, and enjoy being with themselves. This is a gift for life.

In that sense, structured activity agendas take time away from these other types of play and learning that really matter most.

And the onus is off of us to try to direct this journey, which maybe for some different personalities than me that’s a disappointment or a problem. For me, it’s a gift. The more I can go along for the ride and enjoy and not have to be the director, the better. I want to keep learning about and understanding my child.

Another benefit is that allowing children to choose and waiting for them to do that is the best way to gauge their readiness. Magda Gerber said, “Readiness is when they do it.” In this case, readiness can also be when they express a desire to do it that comes from them.

Oftentimes, children, we put them into classes, and parents will ask me about that: “Other children seem to be listening. My child isn’t. My child wants to go do their own thing. They don’t want to join in.”

But when a child brings something up that they want to do… I’m going to talk about how that even happens because I can hear parents feeling like: my child’s not going to bring this up. When they bring it up themselves, when it comes from them, that means that they are ready. It means that they’re ready to take direction from others, which doesn’t happen usually until at least, at least three years old, often older, or that maybe they’re ready for that kind of teamwork feeling, that they’re ready to participate in a team, ready to compete. With a lot of these sports, there’s competition. Some people think competition is a bad thing. I don’t agree with that. It’s a positive thing when children are ready for it. When they choose it, it almost always means that they feel ready for it.

But if they’re doing these activities even a little bit for us and then they lose the game or they struggle with the skill, that hurts harder than if they’ve chosen this challenge themselves. It’s still going to hurt, and they learn to deal with that, but it can hurt much more when it feels like, I’m letting my parents down.

Another benefit is this feeling of being trusted. When we trust in our children, that they know themselves, and we’re giving them free rein to decide some of these things, it empowers them. It builds self-confidence. But, it is challenging. I know it’s so challenging. We’re getting peer or societal pressure. “Your child should be doing this. My child’s doing that. Aren’t they doing this?”

I hear about it from parents, whether it’s just other parents or maybe other people that want to sell their programs to you. That’s one of the challenges we face.

To clarify this even more for yourself and combat some of the peer pressure around putting children into activities, David Elkind has a wonderful book, The Hurried Child, with a lot of information on this topic.

Another challenge we might face is our own natural eagerness. I have this for my children to enjoy some of the experiences that I did. I just want them to get to do that. It’s really, really hard to wait.

Again, none of this is make-or-break if you don’t want to wait. This is just my suggestion that, as you can hear in my voice, I totally believe in, but you’ve got to go with what resonates with you, what feels right to you. I’m not even trying to sell you on this. I’m just offering it because it’s been so helpful to me on this path with my children. I see it as so helpful to them. How could I not share something that feels so good to me?

I think when we’re challenging ourselves to try to trust, we can have that sports equipment, or those instruments, or those craft materials, or art materials at home for our children to experiment with at any time. We can see what they’re drawn to or we can even try to show them something and see if they pick up on it.

Children will, If they have those interests, they will explore them at home or at their friend’s house. If they love to dance, then they’re going to dance at home and they’re going to make up dances, and it will be creative for them.

They don’t lose interest by not taking a class that puts structure on these activities for them. They don’t lose interest by not doing that, but they can sometimes lose interest or lose confidence in themselves around that particular talent when they go into something structured where they have to conform to whatever’s going on in that group, or in that class, or with that teacher that they’re not ready for because they haven’t chosen it. It can turn them off, unfortunately.

I think we can all relate to this when something that we just love doing as a hobby is fun. Then, now I’ve got to do it, and I’ve got to do it this way that these people want me to do, and now it’s not fun anymore. Children are very impressionable that way, much more than we are as adults.

What this wait approach does is helps them to stay in tune with that voice inside, that sense of themselves and their inner direction, their calling or callings. If it’s in them, it will naturally build. But putting that structure on children’s natural desires and talents too early can have a negative effect.

How do we do this? Children catch wind of ideas: hobbies, sports, and other things through books, maybe other media, through their friends. We could still maybe expose them if we’re afraid that they don’t know something exists that they might really enjoy. But interestingly, the thing I’ve noticed about readiness is that it really seems to coincide with children being naturally exposed. For example, they hear about that sport, instrument, or type of art through a friend, a book, or other media. That happens and coincides with them being ready for it.

When they’re at those ages where they don’t hear about those things or they don’t relate them to themselves… Like maybe there’s a child in a book that does ballet, but I don’t consider that as something I want to do yet because I’m actually not ready for that. I’m not ready to benefit from that. That’s really what this is. It’s not about that we’re damaging them by putting them in that ballet class at two years old because we really want to see them in the tutu and enjoy that as a parent. It’s not that we’re harming them, but they’re probably not going to benefit from it and it might turn them off. I think if we do want to approach those things that way, just even acknowledging: this is for me, can help us to stay clear on the difference between our child’s inner-directed desires and ours for them.

Our child, let’s say, brings up that they want to do something or they ask about it. The next thing I would do is take my child to go see what that really looks like so their image of dance class, let’s say, because we were talking about that. Their image of what a dance class is like from a book or something might be very different from what it’s really like. So I would take them to go watch the actual class. Or if the people in charge let them try one class, they could do that. No strings attached. Still seeing this in a wide, open way as parents, but just to be more sure that they know what they’re getting into so that it is beneficial and set up for success for them. Keeping that open mind and open heart of trust for our children is really hard, but one of the gifts that this experience of raising children can give us.

Here’s one question that I received on Instagram. This parent says:

Would you consider discussing children’s activities and balancing their desire to try a lot of different things and not overloading them? Also, societal pressure that parents may feel to do everything. My oldest children are six and four, and we homeschool. Somehow, our schedule seems overwhelming at times, but I can’t seem to drop anything, piano, soccer, tee-ball, et cetera, all the while they’re wanting to try martial arts. Thank you. Your work has changed my life. I definitely would not enjoy parenthood this much as a stressed-out military wife and mother of children with neurodiversity if it weren’t for your content and guidance.

That was nice of her.

This is a high-level problem. It’s a privilege to be able to offer children any extracurriculars, especially this many, and that her children are so engaged and interested in all these different activities is cool. I think what I would do is, first of all, consider what works for you, number one. Because the most important thing is that we don’t feel like a harried accommodating parent. That’s the self-care in this. We don’t bite off more than we can chew. We know that downtime and home time are very positive, beneficial experiences and that children aren’t going to lose out if they don’t go to a class. They’re not going to lose out on a talent, cultivating a talent. That interest will remain with them.

What I would do if I did have all these options and my child kept wanting to do more things? I would observe how engaged my child is in these experiences. Sometimes it’s not even just the activity itself, it’s the relationships that they’re making through those experiences with the other children, with the coaches, or the teachers. From there, I would ask them what matters most to them. Certainly the six-year-old could answer that. I would ask them to choose because they can always do something else later. I mean, the positive with a lot of team sports is that they end up being seasonal, so children can maybe do community sports throughout the year. I would ask your child to choose what matters most to them, also using your own experience of observing that child, their interest, and their engagement in the activity. Of course, if they were the ones to choose it from the beginning, there’s probably a lot more chance that they’re more engaged in that.

Now, just to speak one more time about the societal pressure thing, here’s how I feel… There’s never going to be a better reason in our lives to practice ignoring societal and peer pressure, and putting it in its place, than in this experience, this journey of nurturing and building relationships with our children. I would look at where this pressure is actually coming from. Why is it coming at me? Pressure can only work on us if we allow ourselves to be open to it.

For me, I was learning and resonating with Magda Gerber’s approach. It was so out there at the time. It was so different that I learned to jump off that societal pressure track very early on. I knew what I was doing was different, and I became very confident and proud of what I was doing.

That’s what I’m hoping for all parents. I want you to feel confident in your choices. I want you to feel self-reliant.

My hope is that you will cultivate your very own unique parenting model and feel proud modeling it for others. When others doubt you, disagree, or try to convince you that you should validate their choices for whatever reason, hold onto yours. Be that person who believes in yourself so that you can believe in your children. Keep your focus on what matters most — the relationships you’re building, how much you’re enjoying this time of life, and seeing your children thrive overall in the ups and downs that they’re going to experience discovering themselves. We can do this.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlandsbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. Both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon: No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can get them in ebook at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com, and in audio, audible.com. As a matter of fact, you can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast. Thanks so much for listening!

Recommended in this podcast: The Hurried Child by David Elkind

(Photo by Kelly Sikkema on Unsplash)

The post Lessons, Sports, and Hobbies: A Child-Led Approach appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Balancing the Needs of More Than One Child (with Erica Orosco Cruz)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury, welcome to Unruffled. Today, I’m very excited to share a guest with you, Erica Orosco Cruz. I’ve known and admired Erica for many years. We both studied with Magda Gerber. She’s also a RIE certified educator. She’s been in early childhood since she was a teenager and she, 20 years ago, founded Homeschool Garden, which is a childcare center, preschool/kindergarten for children ages one to six years old. Erica’s also a mother and she’s used Magda Gerber‘s approach with her children. I’m really looking forward to hearing Erica share her experiences and wisdom for parents or professionals who want to care for more than one child with respect.

Hi, Erica. Welcome and thank you so much for being here.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Hi Janet. I’m so happy to be here. It’s great to hear your voice .

Janet Lansbury:  And yours, and by the way, congratulations on your 20-year anniversary of the founding of Homeschool Garden. That’s amazing.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I know, it crept up on us.

Janet Lansbury:  What an accomplishment and I love your mission statement, “To provide a safe environment where parents and children can learn and grow together. We believe that when children are truly seen and heard and parents learn to see with new eyes and listen for what is unsaid, families flourish.”

With new eyes is the way Magda Gerber asked us to see infants. It’s so true, isn’t it?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  It is. I learned so much from Magda. She’s right up there with my grandma as far as mentors and women in my life that really guided me. And yeah, I couldn’t rephrase it in a different way. It’s so clear and it gives people a great perspective.

Janet Lansbury:  So you said your grandmother, does this mean you were raised with this kind of respectful approach?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I want to say she was the one that truly saw me and she was so attentive to all her grandchildren. Unfortunately, I only had her for the first four years of my life. She ended up passing from breast cancer. But I am proof of how they always say the first five years are so important. She left such a lasting mark in my life that I am the person I am today because of her.

Janet Lansbury:  Was she a primary caregiver for you?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  She was when my mother returned to work when I was one. And she was the matriarch of our family.

Janet Lansbury:  Wow. And then how did you end up starting a preschool and being a consultant for parents and doing these courses that you teach? How did this all come about?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yeah, I don’t think that was ever my intention. I joyfully worked with children since I was 15. I was volunteering in daycare centers and I was a camp counselor and a teacher assistant, various avenues of work in early childhood and I really enjoyed it.

I actually came across the RIE Philosophy, the RIE Manual, in an early childhood course for infants and toddlers. And I was fascinated by it. I had never read anything like it, it was so different from what I experienced, even working in the field already. It was so different from what I experienced and I loved it. As an 18-year-old learning this for the first time, I said: This is great, but you can’t really do this with children.

Janet Lansbury:  What do you mean?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Well, you couldn’t talk to children where they would understand. You couldn’t not teach them. You would have to teach them how to do things, teach them to sit up. It was so different.

Janet Lansbury:  Yeah, this idea that they are coming into the world as people with their own abilities and can be treated like an aware person. I know it was shocking for me too when I first learned this.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yeah. And so I had that experience in school. And then a couple of years later, as I finished up my education, I was looking for employment and I came across a center that actually had sought out Magda Gerber for some consulting: Glendale Adventist Medical Center. They have childcare onsite for their employees. And I went there for an interview and the director, who was a very tall woman, over six feet, was giving me a tour of the location.

“Here’s our pre-K room. Here’s our preschool room. Here’s where the two-year-old toddlers are. Here we’re going to go into the toddler and infant space.” And it was very reminiscent of Magda Gerber’s space. They had an outdoor deck, there was a door that was propped open that the children could go in and out of.

When we walked in, we both saw an infant about 8 to 10 months old. She was sitting up on her own, and we saw her pick up a leaf and she put it in her mouth. And then what came next is what was so different. The director walked over to her, she squatted down in a kneeling position, and she even tilted her head so that her eyes were at eye level with the infant. And she said, “I saw you put a leaf in your mouth,” and she waited. And then she put her hand out and she said, “I’d like it now.” And the young infant opened up her mouth, stuck out her tongue and the director plucked the leaf off of her tongue.

Janet Lansbury:  Wow.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yeah. What was that? And it was so different. I expected her to run over to the infant, scoop up the infant in her arms and then stick her finger in the infant’s mouth to get the leaf. And that was not what happened at all.

I even asked the director, “What is that? What did you do?” And that’s when she talked about the RIE Philosophy again. And so seeing it in action, I was like, “I want to learn more, whatever that is. I want to learn more of that.”

Janet Lansbury:  Right, it totally stands out as just so different from the way our society treats children and the way that most of us instinctively would treat a baby.

So you studied with Magda and some of the other wonderful mentors at Resources for Infant Educators, and then you started teaching, right? You started teaching parent-infant classes and parent-toddler classes. And then at some point 20 years ago, you decided to start Homeschool Garden and care for groups of children.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. I had a then five-year-old and two-year-old and had been teaching classes and was looking for a school for them. I didn’t find one that where I was seeing that they were respected, seeing that they were taken care of in a way that I wanted them to be cared for and so Homeschool Garden was born.

Janet Lansbury:  So you decided I’m just going to do it myself.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I was determined that there was a space for that and that other families are also looking for that as well, and 20 years later, here we are.

Janet Lansbury:  Wow. And this is actually one of the reasons I especially wanted you on the podcast. There are a lot of reasons because you have so much wisdom that you’ve gathered through all this work with children that you’ve done over the years, your own children, how many do you have now?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I have 4: 25, 23, 14, he just turned 14 and then a two-year-old as well.

Janet Lansbury:  Quite a spread. That must be such an education in itself. And then your Homeschool Garden is a mixed age group, right?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. Our youngest right now is actually my granddaughter who is nine months old.

Janet Lansbury:  Oh my gosh.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yeah. And then we go up all the way to six years.

Janet Lansbury:  How wonderful. Well, so many parents and professionals ask me, “How can this approach work, how can you respect a baby or respect any age child (the way you talked about respecting that baby with the leaf), when you’ve got twins, triplets siblings, or groups of children? How do you give them that respect? How do you handle their behaviors?”

And what I often don’t get the chance to explain, in fact, I rarely get the chance to explain is that this approach is actually geared for caring for groups of children, because much of it was developed as you know, by Pediatrician Emmi Pikler in an orphanage setting where the ratio was one caregiver to nine babies or toddlers. And most of us, at least as parents, are dealing with a better ratio than that.

Through those respectful care practices that Pikler developed and then Magda Gerber developed further, they had remarkably positive outcomes for institutional care, unheard of outcomes where these people grew up to be typical in wanting to have relationships, wanting to have children, things that just don’t usually happen in an institutional setting. So it works. And you have had all this practical experience putting that into action and developing your own ways of giving attention to all the children and giving them what they need, taking care of their needs so that they can flourish. That’s what I want to hear more about.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Even when we have licensing people come out or physical therapists or people that have a variety of the experience of childcare and different locations, they come here and they sense right away this is different. We are not trying to micromanage the children’s time or what they’re doing. We are really giving the opportunity for them to play freely. And when we have routines like snack or a transition into the program, or a transition of getting picked up, or even a transition to go wash hands, we’re doing that with individual time and respect. And so those visitors, even when we have parents observing, are in awe of how it all flows. And I, 100% attribute that to the RIE Philosophy. The idea of children being an active participant in their care, the safe environment that we create, the consistency of our routines.

I often will tell parents who have twins or more than one child that you have to be even more RIE so that you can create that kind of environment and that flow and ease of being with your children.

Janet Lansbury:  Right, that’s what I feel too. And finding that time for self-care in all of that as well. It’s even more important that you put that oxygen mask on first when you’ve got the challenge of multiple children to take care of.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  And I think something that was very different for me going through the RIE Program as a parent was that I was a single mom, a single mom of two young children. So I got to apply this practice every day. And when I had my second son and my three-year-old was demanding of my time and my attention, okay, how can I be here for both of them? How can I be present? What would that look like?

For me, it’s really about having one-on-one time with each child, even if in a group care setting. If that means that’s the potty break that’s happening. If that means it’s the diaper change. If that means it’s a child who wakes up late and everyone else has finished snack. And so this child has one-on-one time with the caregiver having snack, then that’s how it happens.

Janet Lansbury:  Well, somebody actually asked a question about that on a comment on one of my Facebook posts recently, it’s actually a podcast post “Damage Control When We Feel Like We’re Failing,” and it’s talking about multiple children. So I had brought up the study by Sherry Turkle about the way that children feel when the phone or the tech device takes the parents’ attention at any time, they get a text message and they go or whatever. I had shared a study about that in the podcast. And this parent said:

“What if that something is not your phone, but your other children, because I feel like this happens constantly? I’ve read your words on being present for the “wants something time,” and being there during caregiving moments. And I try, but I’m with one, and there are two other children in a similar state needing help. I’m doing someone’s hair and from across the house, someone else is screaming for me to help them on the toilet. I’m just sitting down to color with one and another has spilled their drink all over the floor. There seem to be so many interruptions that I feel this is the sense that I give to my kids: that I can always be taken away. And on the other side, I try to give “needs nothing time,” (I think she’s referring to “Wants nothing quality time,” Magda’s term)… and make time to be present and play. But what ends up happening is they all try to play with me individually at the same time. It normally ends with frustration because no one is getting what they want.”

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes, I can relate to all of that.

Sportscasting. Sportscasting is huge. “I’m coloring with your sister right now. I hear you’re asking for help on the potty. You may have to wait until I’m done using my red color.”

I always want to be sportscasting so that each child knows where my attention is. I had a three-year-old and a three-month-old and I was spending all my time focused on both of them at the same time, where I didn’t have any individual time with them. And so instead of bathing them both at the same time, I had decided that I would have my one-on-one time with them each by bathing them separately.

So I started with my three-year-old and would bathe him. And at that moment, sometimes my three-and-a-half-month-old would cry and would want attention. And I would remain with my three-year-old as I was sportscasting to my three-and-a-half-month-old, “I hear you, Jacob. I’m bathing Andrew right now. And when I’m done, then I can be with you.”

As my three-year-old started to hear that over and over — that I was choosing to stay with him as his brother was calling for my attention, it then became the three-year-old that said, “I’m okay, mom, you can go check on Jacob right now.” The baby was just outside the bathroom door, laying down on the rug, and the three-year-old was within arm’s reach of the bathtub. But it was the understanding and the empathy that he was developing by me being present and staying with one child at a time.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. They both get a positive message from that. They get the message that even if he’s getting the attention now, I’m going to get my own version of full attention at some point, too, instead of nobody’s ever getting it all the way.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. And trying to meet everybody’s need at the exact same time.

Janet Lansbury:  Right.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  We have a new child that’s transitioning in. And before I get up and leave the space, I let him know I’m going to be going to the kitchen and getting some dishes and I’ll be back. And he may toddle behind me and follow me in that direction.

When I come back, I let him know: “I’m going to be serving lunch right now. You can come sit down.”

The other children are like, “I want agua,” because we’re a bilingual school, asking for more water. And I’ll say, “I’m helping this child right now. And when I’m done helping this child, then I can start serving water,” sportscasting whose attention I have right now.

Janet Lansbury:  Yes. But what if that other child doesn’t accept this gracefully at all and has the impulse to go and do something destructive with another child or with something in the room or scream really, really loudly? How do you handle it when it’s not easy like that?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  So one of the things I recommend not only to my staff but to caregivers and parents is to have an environment that supports you. So when I am going to the kitchen, I am bringing actually a basket full of every single thing that I’m going to need. We’ve got extra plates, we’ve got the extra napkins, we’ve got extra silverware, extra glasses. Everything is in one space. And so when I put it down near the children that are sitting at child-sized tables and stools, it is again within arms reach. So I can put my hand over it. If a child is like, “I don’t want to wait. I’m just going to grab a glass,” or, “I’m going to reach for the water pitcher,” everything’s within arms reach of me so that I can put my hand over it and say, “I’m not offering that right now.”

And I would repeat, “I’m still helping so-and-so sit down, and then I can serve you water.” And I even point to my ear, “I hear you, I hear you asking for water. I want to remind you that I’m going to help this friend to the table first.”

And I’m pausing. I’m not reacting. There’s not a big reaction from me so I get to set the tone. I’m not going to amplify it. I don’t need to yell. I don’t need to move quickly because I’ve created an environment that supports me right along with Magda Gerber’s example of a safe environment.

Janet Lansbury:  Also I’ve got to believe that the fact you’re not getting triggered, well, it’s a lot of practice, but the way that you’re perceiving that it’s normal for children to do those things…  it’s normal for them to object when they’re not getting what they want. It’s not a bad sign that you’re doing something wrong and that you’ve got to fix something and everybody’s unhappy and that’s going to rock you. It’s a mentality of normalizing a lot of things, our perceptions, our expectations.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. So as soon as the children arrive, they get either sun hats or beanies, depending on the weather, and a child who’s been here for five years and their routine is the same (we’ve always gotten a hat), I still will remind them, I’ll be touching my head: “It’s time for you to get a hat now.” Just as if it was a child who’s only been here for three months.

So it’s not the expectation of, well, they should know, they’ve been here for five years or we’ve been doing this for three months. It’s with the understanding of, there are a lot of stimuli. And I don’t know if they got the breakfast that they wanted or if the parent that they wanted to see in the morning is the parent that woke up. I don’t know how their day is and I just want to be supportive in any way that I can.

Janet Lansbury:  That reminds me… It’s almost like a literal version of a touchpoint, that you’re giving the children just those little moments. Even that’s a moment of attention that you’re giving solely to that child. It just lasts for one second, but it matters because you’re connecting right there and saying: I see you and I’m here to help you. I’m here to remind you and help you. Not be angry with you for not getting it, but to show you that I’m here caring for you as well.

So it doesn’t take as much energy as I think we sometimes believe it might, to give a child that feeling of being seen and being cared about in a small way.

One of the common issues parents have and I remember this being an issue for me, is that they need to put their baby to sleep, and their toddler, or in my case, it was a four-year-old, is not able to be quiet in the area because they can’t control their impulses at that time. So, therefore, they’re disrupting and they’re making it pretty much impossible for that baby to fall asleep and for you to have a little bedtime moment nursing or whatever it is at bedtime. And then you ask the child to leave the room and then they’re screaming outside the door, crying, and you feel terrible as a parent that you’re abandoning them and neglecting them. How would you handle a situation like that?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Janet, I think it goes back to being able to give the children grace. That’s normal, they’re tired, they’re wanting your full attention. They don’t want you to be separated from them. But I wouldn’t be able to give that grace to the child unless I was giving that grace to myself too.

Janet Lansbury:  Giving yourself that grace of…

Erica Orosco Cruz:  It may not be perfect. I might unravel just as quickly as the other child or it might feel rushed. I might have both of the babies in my arms at that time. So knowing that it doesn’t have to be perfect every day and being able to give myself that grace.

But I want to be able to meet both of the child’s needs. Okay, how can I do that, if I’m thinking about it? Okay, the youngest one I would like to put to bed early so that I can spend the time with my four-year-old or older child. How can I do that? Oh, okay, does that mean that I move up one child’s bedtime an hour earlier, instead of just 30 minutes earlier? Maybe I don’t need to put the child completely asleep. Maybe I just need to feed the child, burp the child, put the younger child in the crib while I go and sing songs, have a cuddle, have a story time with the older child, and then come back to the other child, the younger child if he’s not asleep.

I’m always trying to think of possibilities. What are other possibilities? So that it’s not just, I need to do this, because that rigidity, the rigidity of it has to be done this way or they’re calling me, so I need to go over there, even though I’m being here in this moment.

I remember being that parent: it has to be this way and not giving myself that grace of, I can take a breath and then I can go attend to that child that needs me.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. Or we can have a very messy moment here, it’s not going to be smooth. Which is most of the time, especially if you have more than one child, it’s hardly ever everybody’s just perfectly content. Those moments happen and then you’re wondering, Oh gosh, I’ve got to pinch myself here. I must be dreaming.

I think getting used to that it’s going to be… And also for that older child, that’s the moment where maybe all that envy and jealousy and feeling about having this new child in their life, this new child in the family is coming to the fore right there and it’s spilling over and it’s getting expressed and in a way that’s such a positive, healthy thing.

And we can acknowledge and help someone feel heard, even outside of a door. You can help someone to feel that you care about them and love them, even if they’re not right there with you.

I think that’s another thing with caring for children in groups or caring for multiple children in a family. Yes, it’s nice when a child is having a feeling and we can just drop everything and be just with that feeling. But oftentimes, when there’s more than one child, it doesn’t happen that way, and we have to find ways to accept feelings and encourage children to share feelings with us, without us stopping everything for that to happen.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yeah. Even if they’re on the other side of the door. If you’re going to the bathroom and there’s a two-year-old demanding your attention and the door is closed, you can still, even then, “I hear you, you’re wanting me to be present with you and I’m taking care of myself right now.” Whatever that might be.

Janet Lansbury:  Right and unplugging that thing in us that’s like, I can’t relax. This again comes from expectations and perceptions of what it means when children behave like this. It’s not a bad thing that’s going on. It’s not a negative thing. It’s very healthy for children to feel: sometimes I don’t get what I want. My life is a flow of feelings and it’s not this static — I always feel a certain way. I always feel calm and happy or just calm and settled. It can be ALL those things. And that’s healthy for children to experience. It happens naturally when we, as you said, kind of prioritize one child or even ourselves sometimes.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  And when they’re receiving the focused attention at some other part during the day, I can even bring that: “I remember when you were pounding on the door when I was in the bathroom and here I am, I’m all yours now. We can go and read your story. Now my time is with you.”

Janet Lansbury:  Yeah. “And that was so hard for you. I could hear how hard that was. You didn’t like that.”

Another practical example people need help with is let’s say… Well, actually I did a post recently, just a little post on Instagram, about transitions and helping a child to leave something, like the park. It could be also leaving daycare or leaving childcare or school or some other situation or a play date with a friend. The child is having difficulty in that transition as children often do. They’re getting overwhelmed and they’re getting dysregulated. And how can we respectfully help them to get from point A to point B? They’re not usually able to be given a lot of choices then or whatever. They’re not in a reasonable frame of mind and they really need help. So I had a post about this and somebody said, “Well, what if there are two children and they’re both running in different directions when you try to help them. What do you do if everybody’s running away?”

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Again, creating that safe environment for yourself, a supportive environment.

So if I have two children and there is a possibility that they might run in different directions, I maybe bring a wagon to the park so that I can corral them into a space, so that I don’t have to carry two children out of the park.

I also like to talk about routines and consistency. So one of the things that we used to do with my children when we would go to the park is that: “Before we leave the park, we will go on the swings. And when we are done with the swings, then we’re going to go to the car.” So they may ask for the swing earlier in the park visit. And I would remind them, “We do that before we leave.” And so they would go off and play again.

And then when I was getting ready to or it was time for us to leave, “Okay, we’re going to be getting ready to leave so I can offer the swing now.” So they got into the routine of Oh when we go in the swings, that means we’re going to leave, and it would be pretty much smooth sailing.

So again, when we take a group of children to the park or another visit: What kind of cues can I give them? What can I let them know? So when we start to put our shoes back on, that’s going to be time for us to leave, and we’re reminding them of that as we arrive at the location. “When we get our shoes back on, we’re going to be leaving.” And shortly before we’re leaving, “Okay it’s almost time for us to get our shoes on. And then we will be leaving right after that.”

So lots of physical cues. If I’m at a friend’s house and my children have come along, “When I go get our jackets from the other room, it’ll be time for us to leave.” “When I put my dishes on the counter, it’s going to be time for us to leave.” So I’m trying to give them physical, not only visual cues, which is super helpful.

And then there are times where they’re tired and they’ve had tons of fun and they don’t want to leave. Now you’re dealing with a tired child who might be throwing a fit. You can give them all the cues and they’re still not participating. So it’s, “You may walk to the car or I may pick you up and take you to the car,” pausing and waiting, giving them every opportunity that you can, that they will participate. And then it’s, “I see that you’re not walking, so I’m going to pick you up and carry you to the car.”

Janet Lansbury:  I love that idea of the transitional activities, sort of like a bedtime routine, where once the child is in that activity, they’re already feeling themselves getting ready to leave, or they’re feeling themselves getting ready to go to sleep because they’ve associated that activity with the next activity or the next situation that’s going to happen. That’s brilliant. I actually haven’t heard of that before and I love it.

Erica Orosco Cruz: There have also been times where we’ve had an “after RIE class.” So a class for children that are over two years. And I remember we were wrapping up class, the volume was going louder and the parents are in the class going, “Oh no. How is this going to unfold?” The children were running around in the indoor space. And I got out a box of silks and I just slowly folded them. And the energy slowly shifted into much calmer. Some of the children started joining me. But it’s so much about being the calm in the eye of the storm of just being present and slowing down. I don’t need to raise my volume. I don’t need to stand up and lift my arms. I don’t need to react to what’s going on in front of me. I just need to know where I want to go. “Do I want to bring the energy down? Okay, I can do that. How can I do that? What are the tools that I can have? Is it sweeping? Is it raking? Is it something that I can do, repetitive and calming as well?”

Janet Lansbury:  Do you ever get wound up and you feel like: Okay, I’m getting wound up. What am I going to do? I’m going to breathe, or whatever it is. Do you have a self-dialogue that you do at all or imagery?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I even talk it out loud with the children. Say they’re moving their bodies precariously on something. I might go, “I’m watching. I’m not sure about that. I may come closer.”

So it’s not even in my head, it’s just something oral. And I’m saying it out loud and they’re like: Oh, what does that mean? She’s watching, what are we doing that’s bringing her attention to it?

Or I might say, “I’m coming closer,” when I’m getting behavior that’s out of the norm and screaming and amplified and they’re having a good time, but I’m not sure about it. So I’ll go, “I’m not sure. I’m going to come closer.” And so I’m checking in with them, but I’m also checking in with myself. Is this something I’m okay with? This is something I’m not okay with. Well, let me get closer. Maybe I can be closer and feel more comfortable with what they’re climbing on.

We had a parent that came in and was volunteering, but was very fluent with the language that we use: “I’m not sure, I’m coming closer.” And I remember at the end of the day, one of the staff members says, “She’s not sure about a lot of things.” And I thought that was so great because at least she was vocalizing it for uncertainty with the children and with the staff. So I was happy. That made me laugh.

Janet Lansbury:  Yeah. It’s always better to put it out there because children are feeling that, they’re feeling that trepidation or that discomfort a little bit in the person. And then it’s kind of scary if they don’t hear somebody put words to what’s going on with them. So, it really helps to calm children even just to be that honest about what’s going on with us, cluing them in. It also helps model a process for them, for themselves: I’m not sure about standing on that rock. So let me think about it. Okay, I’m going to try putting one foot up. Not that they would verbalize that, but they might internalize that kind of dialogue.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. And its familiar language. So even the other children might say, “I’m not sure about that,” when they’re referring to another child.

Janet Lansbury:  Yeah. I love that. That’s so great.

What else do I want to ask you about… What about the conflicts between children? What about when they’re using unkind words or being unkind or they’re being physically unsafe or maybe they’re fighting over toys? What kind of responses do you have to those things?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  I feel like it’s the same responses when we’re in a RIE class and it’s infants exploring each other’s bodies and things like that. And the same thing with the preschool or a child who has a whole lot more language. One of the words that we use often is “ouch,” if we see something that’s rough or hear something that’s rough, or if it’s unkind words. So we come closer, we sportscast, “I saw that you were both holding onto it. Ouch, that’s rough when you’re pulling on someone’s hair,” or “Ouch, that was rough how you said, give it to me.”

So we are still sportscasting, even with children who have a full round of language because they still are centering on themself and what they desire instead of really looking at the other child who may have that same desire. And so that’s where the sportscasting still comes into play. And it’s so helpful, especially with siblings who have varying degrees of language and comprehension of what’s going on.

Janet Lansbury:  But you stop some of the behaviors, right?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes. We are definitely putting our hand in there to make sure everybody’s safe. We intervene if there are children that are being rough with each other, or if they’re being rough with an object, like a toy, or even — we have some chickens here — if they’re being rough with themselves even. We’re intervening, putting our hands in the path where they could do harm, and still continuing the sportscasting. “I may hold onto that car, I see that you’re both pushing. I’m going to make sure that you’re both safe.”

Janet Lansbury:  But you’re allowing them to resolve the conflict if possible by themselves. And at what point would you decide that they can’t be in this conflict or they’re not able to be here right now, or I need to pull them aside, how would you do that?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Sometimes we will stop the harm from happening. And then it may be, we can be in that space with them and see how it unfolds. “Okay, I’m going to have you stay close to me, but you’re still going after that person. Okay, I’m going to have us move into a different space.” So that there’s a clear boundary of what’s okay and what’s not okay. Yes, it’s okay to struggle over a toy or want to be sitting on the same stool or to have conflict is natural, but to be forceful with someone’s body, that’s a hard boundary.

Janet Lansbury:  Absolutely. But you’re still not judging the child as a bad child or shameful or anything. Yeah-

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Definitely not.

Janet Lansbury:  That’s the key to so much. Our reactions are what make certain behaviors repeat or make things a “thing.” Like children running away from us when they’re supposed to do something, it’s often because of the way that we’ve reacted to that in the past or the way that we’ve been judgmental.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Here on site with the staff, it’s like okay, what is that behavior desiring? Is that child wanting to play with those children? We see them knocking down a structure that the other children built with blocks, but does that need mean that they want to be playing? Okay, how can we facilitate that? What is behind the behavior? What is the need that’s trying to be met?

Janet Lansbury:  Right. And sometimes it’s the opposite. This child is trying to get some space if it’s too stimulating for this child to be this close to these children. So they’re pushing, hitting them.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  You can’t discover that unless you’re observing. Because if you’re in it and you’re like oh, I’m constantly having to stop this child from pushing friends away from them. And you’re not observing… Okay, what happened before? Okay, what was happening earlier in the day? If you’re not trying to figure out through observation what’s unfolding, then you’re not going to be able to see it. And then I would say, then you would move towards the labels or you would get frustrated or you would say: Oh, not again.

Janet: Lansbury. Yes, and that’s such a cornerstone of Magda Gerber’s approach: sensitive observation of children and it really makes a difference. I’ve noticed when I’ve been able to go into a preschool because a parent maybe asked me to assess their child for something. I’ll be the one that gets to observe because the other teachers are sometimes busy and I’ll see everything — how things went down and what really happened. And you learn a lot about each child just in a short amount of time. It’s really, really powerful.

But how do you do that if you’re the parent with a bunch of children? How do you carve out that observation time? You learn to not get involved in their play for one thing, so that becomes observation time.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  And then you get curious. Okay. I was putting the groceries away and a child said something to me, but I continued to put the groceries away, and then all of a sudden there was spilled milk on the floor. Oh, did I miss that opportunity where they were asking for help pouring the milk? What could I have done? Could I have set the groceries aside and maybe the child could’ve helped with the groceries away and then I could have served milk?

It really goes to the curiosity that children instinctively have, that we often lose because we’re just trying to find the answer.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. So it’s not really observation in the sense of the way we do in the classes, which is where we’re actually sitting and observing. We’re reflecting more on what just happened, so that’s another way of learning the way observation teaches us.

We can also learn by actually being open to… which always has to start with self-compassion and non-self-judgment, I think. But reflecting on: Oh, there’s a reason this happened with my child and the reason is not my fault, I’m bad or that they’re terrible, that I’ve done a terrible job with them, that they’re not a good person. None of those are ever the reason. The reason is something else. So to let go of all those other things so that we can love ourselves and have peace with ourselves enough to be open to what it really is, I guess, is what you’re saying.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  That’s what I call grace, to give yourself some grace.

Janet Lansbury:  I love that. Wow. What a gift you are.

So you consult with parents, you coach parents, all of that information’s on your website and you have online classes as well?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  We do. We have online classes for parents, we weekly come together. And what we receive, Janet, is like when we were in class with Magda, the decompression of: Now I get to reflect.  Or, where can I fit in this observation time? Or as Magda used to say, “What are your three wishes?” And by asking that question, it really opens you up to: What is the possibility? How could this be different?

Being a mother is no easy feat. Being a caregiver of multiple children is no easy feat, but when we have a love and a curiosity for it, it gives us a lot of opportunities to be able to shift, to try different things.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. What do I need? I feel like you’re saying. That’s what Magda was saying. She was saying, “If the good fairy could come and give you a wish or three wishes, what would they be?” And what she was saying was: Think about what you need.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Yes, because we teach ourselves first. So if we’re frustrated or tired or not taking care of ourselves, that’s what we’re modeling for our children.

Janet Lansbury:   This is wonderful. Thank you so much, Erica. I’ll be linking to all your information in the notes of this podcast. And then in the transcript, which will be posted on my website. I wish you had been my preschool teacher and I may have wished you were my mother too, at some point. You exude that grace that you’re talking about, you really do.

Oh, there’s this video of you, if it’s still on YouTube of you helping your son brush his teeth, and goodness, that alone, is worth a million words. Is that still available?

Erica Orosco Cruz:  It is.

Janet Lansbury:  Okay, great. I’ll include that in the transcript as well. Wonderful. Thank you so much. And you have a beautiful day. I’m thrilled you’re out there helping so many people, so many parents, so many children to give themselves grace.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Thank you. This went by so fast. I’m so grateful that we got to do it.

Janet Lansbury: Me too. All right, take care, my friend.

Erica Orosco Cruz:  Bye.

Please check out the wonderful resources Erica offers at http://homeschoolgardensite.com

And HERE’s Erica’s toothbrushing video on YouTube, it’s worth watching!

Also, please check some of my other podcasts on my website janetlansbury.com. There are 200-and-something of them at this point and they’re all indexed by subject and category so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And I have two books, they’re available at Amazon: No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting.  You can get them in eBook at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com, and in audio at Audible.com. Actually, you can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thank you so much for listening and for all your kind support. We can do this.

The post Balancing the Needs of More Than One Child (with Erica Orosco Cruz) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Damage Control When We Feel Like We’re Failing”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today, I am going to be answering a question, an email I received from a parent who is concerned. She feels like she’s failing with her kids right now, because she has so many difficult situations going on in her life. She says, “How do I mitigate damage when I can’t stay unruffled right now?” And I’m going to be offering some perspective and hopefully helpful practical advice.

Here’s the email I received:

Janet, how can I mitigate damage when I can’t stay unruffled right now? 2020 was brutal. We moved across the country into a house that made my husband ill. My mom had cancer and accidentally moved into a meth house. We buried family members. My best friend’s marriage turned abusive. I started working again and also there was a global pandemic. I’m not okay. I’m on my phone too much, and I snap easily. We don’t have enough needs nothing time. And I don’t have the resources left to remain unruffled when my kids do kids stuff, even though I used your methods to great success in 2019.

I can see this is a me problem, or well, a world problem, but it’s not my magnificent kids’ fault. I’m doing my level best to restore myself: sleep, marriage counseling, getting my medical stuff, checked out, friend time, but the kids can’t wait a year for me to get it together. Do you have any advice for surviving in the meanwhile? How do I make this time of failure less bad for my kids? They only get one childhood.

Okay. So I feel for this parent, and the thoughts I want to share are not just for her children, but for her, or for any mom, or any dad, or any parent who is struggling this way, because that’s the thing about our relationships with children… they are always about both of us. There are feelings between us. They’re getting reflected back and forth. And we’ve all heard people say, what children really want is a happy parent, which doesn’t mean we’re supposed to make ourselves happy when we do have all these issues going on, but that reflects an understanding that our feelings are just as important to our child as our child’s feelings are to us.

So with that in mind, I want to comment that this parent is highly self-aware, which is a gift in itself. She understands the children’s behavior is often about her and the stress that she’s going through. This is all going to be really, really helpful to her. And of course, it’s fantastic that she is looking into taking care of herself with better sleep, counseling, friend time, getting that perspective from an outside source that cares about us.

So she’s doing it right. And I just want to help her to feel better.

The first thing I want to talk about is exiting the guilt cycle. I don’t know that she for sure is in a guilt cycle, but it commonly happens when we’re going through issues like these. We’re feeling uncomfortable. We’re feeling stressed. Our child is absorbing that from us and reflecting it back out the way children do, which is a lot of feelings, behavior that’s challenging a lot of the time. They’re resisting us. They’re pushing us away. They’re acting uncomfortable. They’re not at their best. I don’t know how old these children are in this case, but it really doesn’t matter. It’s all ages.

So now our children are behaving in ways that are making us upset. We’re losing our patience. And a lot of the reason that we do that is not only because we’re spent with all that we’re trying to manage and put out there in our lives, but our child’s behavior in the moment actually can push a guilt button in us. They’re reminding us every time they’re whining or crying or acting unreasonably, as children do, telling us “no” and not doing what we really need them to do. All of that makes us feel worse and reminds us how we maybe feel that we’re neglecting them at this time, that we’re not giving them what they need, or that we’re not doing it right as a parent.

So not only is the behavior on its face annoying, we’re letting it tap into us at a deeper level because we’re primed to be guilted by it.

Then we will be even more likely to lose our temper or just react to it in an uncomfortable manner that isn’t as helpful to our children ever, of course, as when we can be calm and centered and just help them stop doing whatever it is, or help them do whatever it is, and not have emotions around it. But when our children are not doing their best or they seem emotional or fragile, then yeah, we’re going to be more likely to take it personally when we’re already in that guilt cycle.

And then our child’s behavior, isn’t improving because of the way that we’re responding, snapping and all of that stuff this parent is saying is going on, which is very, very common. And now they’re less likely to behave well. So we’re going to be more likely to feel guilty. And on and on and on and on and on.

So how do we exit the cycle? We exit the cycle by understanding that however much this parent is going through, whatever troubles that she’s dealing with, whatever her moods are, how she’s feeling is going to directly influence her children. And that’s not to feel guilty about, it’s just what is. As this parent says…  first she says “it’s a me problem.” But then she said, “it’s a world problem,” but it’s not her magnificent kids fault. So yeah, it’s just what’s happening in her life. Acceptance of that can be helpful. That, yeah, I’m going through a lot. It’s going to be showing up in me, with my children, and they’re going to be reacting to that. Their behavior is going to reflect my discomfort.

So normalizing this for ourselves, instead of going to that other place, that extra uncomfortable place of this is all my fault and I’m messing up and my kids are unhappy and they’re not good kids, or however we might see that in the moment. Getting that perspective, that yes, our children will not be more comfortable than we are, generally, on a given day. It’s just the way it is. So, exiting the guilt cycle with acceptance and understanding of what’s going on and why my children are doing this.

And maybe this parent already does that. She seems to understand a lot, but it gets away from all of us. It’ll make it a little less likely for her to lose her temper, just remembering: oh yeah, of course, they’re acting like this. Of course they’re doing that. I’m just going to help them as best I can.

The other thing about these cycles, what can happen is that we don’t set boundaries as early as we normally would, or that we should. We feel in our gut: you know what? We should leave the park now. My kids are starting to look tired, and I really need to go, and I’m getting hungry. But then our kids are saying, “No, we want to stay. We want to stay.” And we feel a little guilty because we’ve been snapping lately and life has been tough for everybody and we want to be nicer to them. So we let them stay longer.

And then what often happens is they get over-tired and now they’re melting down. Now it’s harder to get them to leave. So we’re getting frustrated because we gave them that extra time. To be nice. And now it’s blowing up in our face, and we get snappy, naturally.

So that can be a recipe for more discomfort for everybody. And I would look at that. Am I setting boundaries early enough?

Oftentimes when we as a family are in these difficult times, it’s actually helpful to set boundaries even earlier and more firmly, because children, like all of us, when life is feeling chaotic and hard, we want to be nested in a little closer, to feel that those boundaries are around us. Even if we can’t ask for them. In fact, we’re resisting and saying, “We don’t want them.” It helps.

And then when we do get snappy or lose our temper, repair. It’s always the best thing. It makes us feel so much better because we’re going to that higher part of ourselves. We’re being honest. We’re coming clean. “This is what happened, and yeah, I snapped at you, and I’m sorry, you don’t deserve that. I regret it, and I’m really sorry.” It will help us to feel better about the situation, which again is so important.

The other suggestion I would like to make to this parent, and this is again for her and for her children is to carve out some time to be present, to put boundaries on ourselves so that happens. As this parent says, she says, “we don’t have enough needs nothing time.” So Magda Gerber has two kinds of quality time that she recommends. One is, “Wants Something Quality Time,” and one is, “Wants Nothing Quality Time.” That’s what she called it. Those were her terms.

“Wants Something Quality Time” is what I’ve talked about a lot, which is when we’re caregiving, when we’re changing diapers with a baby, when we’re giving a bath, when we’re helping our child to bed with bedtime rituals, brushing their hair or helping them to brush their teeth. Mealtime is another one. Those are the times that Magda recommended we put everything else away, unplug the phone, (well that was in the old days). But putting your devices away, clearing that space just to be present. Not trying to be lively, or be entertaining, or teaching our child something. Just being available. Because these are naturally intimate times with our children that we can take advantage of.

So if a parent is working outside the home, or she’s busy doing other things, then it won’t be maybe every meal or every bath, every toothbrushing, or every band-aid. But when she is available and she can put other things away, she takes advantage of those opportunities, because those will anchor her relationship with her children. And not only that, this will help this parent to escape from everything else that’s going on. This is something that children give us. This is the gift that they give us, one of the many — that they can take us out of all these other concerns. It’s not as easy an escape as having a drink, or getting a massage, or maybe going out with your friend, but it will be a more lasting feeling of escape.

If we have the boundaries, if we prioritize these times, we will get a respite. We will get a moment where we’re just looking at our child’s hair and how it’s changed since they were a baby and all the different colors that are in it as we’re combing and they’re going, “Oh, that hurts. That hurts.” And we’re letting them know, “I hear you, and you don’t like this.”

And of course, you’re going to especially get that in situations like these, because children will use these moments to share those feelings with us. And it’s often not even about the hair hurting so much, or the head hurting. It’s really about I’m here with you, and I’m sharing with the person I need to share with. And that can last all of five minutes, or two minutes, or 10 minutes, or 20 minutes.

These caregiving routines and meals, if we can put those boundaries on ourself to not be distracted, because we prioritize these times, we get a breather. And this is why you’ll hear, or you will maybe have experienced how we can be going through a very dark time, but the fact that we have a child means we have to keep going. They give us that perspective. Life goes on. I’m here. I need you, and I can’t let you drown in all these other concerns that you have. So we have this opportunity to escape.

Also, when this parent says, “How do I make this time of failure, less bad for my kids? They only get one childhood.” Yes, it’s true that they only get one childhood. But we only get one moment as well. We only get what’s going on right now. We only get this time. So it’s not just for our children, it’s for us, to ground ourselves in the moment whenever we can. Do it for you. Do it for your child and you and your bond.

And then when she says that “we don’t have needs nothing time” or what Magda Gerber called wants nothing time. “We don’t have enough.”

Well, the beauty of this approach that Magda taught is that it is enough when you connect during those caring activities — that the wants-nothing time when you’re just there while your child is playing or exploring, that is not as important. It’s wonderful to do when you can. But if you were connecting a few times a day, completely available to your child, that’s enough during times like these. We do our best. And again, we do it for our child, but we also do it for us.

And then the interesting thing that can happen is that we feel less guilt, because we know that we’ve given our child our all for a few minutes here and there throughout the day, or just in the evening, or the morning when we’re working outside the home, or we’re working at home but we have long hours. Whenever. But relish those times. Prioritize them.

When my first daughter was 17 months old, my father suddenly and tragically died. It was a suicide. I was also training with Magda Gerber at that time, which of course was very helpful, because she sort of became, during that period, almost like a therapist to me. But that’s where I first experienced how your child is a respite from all these other feelings.

Your child can snap you out of it for moments here and there just by their existence and the fact that they still need all the things that they needed before.

So I would try not to look at this as failure or damage. It’s just where you all are. It doesn’t have a label. It’s a period of your life that you can maybe find a little more to enjoy in. And at the same time, help give your children more of that connection.

There was a study that I may have mentioned on my podcast previously that researcher Sherry Turkle did. It was a five-year study with, I believe it was 300 adolescent children, where they interviewed the children about their parents’ tech use, mostly their phones. And the result was that children were far more bothered than they were able to express to their parents. They were not comfortable expressing how much it bothered them that their parents were constantly on their phone.

And there were certain particular moments when it bothered them most. And those were after a separation, when a parent would arrive home from work, or picking up our child from school, and the parent was looking at their phone or texting, or waiting for a response on text, or just had that sense of unavailability. So even if we’re not staring at our phone, there’s this feeling that children get. And Turkle found this in her interviews, that I never have my parents’ attention completely. Something could come along at any moment and take them away from me. They’re never comfortably mine. So it’s almost like children can’t quite exhale into that moment, because it could be gone any second.

The other two times, according to Turkle’s study, that children were particularly sensitive to their parents being distracted were mealtimes and when they were doing their extracurricular activities, like a sport or a lesson where they were applying themselves and trying to perform those skills. They really appreciated their parents’ full attention at those times. So anyway, it’s an interesting message about priorities and it really follows the caregiving advice that Magda gave.

And believe me, I know that being fully present is challenging, but it’s important to give children that message once in a while. And it’s been my experience that when we do that, we enjoy it more as well. And we feel good about ourselves that we’ve made ourselves put the phone away.

And if we can’t do it in those times, maybe we have to make a call or maybe there is something that we need to do during those caregiving times, or those transitional times. Then we acknowledge, because we know that this matters to our child. So we say, “Oh, I can’t wait to say hi to you, and I’ll be with you in one moment. I just have to do this one thing, and then we’re going to connect.” Or, “I can’t be with you for your bath tonight, sweetie. Daddy’s going to do it. I really wanted to, but I’ll be there to take you to bed.”

Again, we’re being honest. We’re letting our children know that we know that it matters, and that they can trust us. And it will make us feel more like heroes during these hard times.

I really hope some of that helps.

Also, please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. There are a lot of them and they’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon: No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can also get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or Barnes & Noble and in audio at audible.com. You can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Damage Control When We Feel Like We’re Failing appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “My Daughters Weigh In on Respectful Parenting (with Charlotte and Madeline)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today, I’m very excited because two of my most favorite people in the whole universe are my guests on this show, and these are my daughters.

For a couple of years now, I’ve been getting requests to hear from my children. What did they think about their upbringing? And I thought that was a good idea. And it seemed like there was a possibility for this to happen over the holidays. So I put out a question on my Facebook page, asking what people would like to know from my children if they were to do an episode together. I was floored by the enthusiasm and all of the wonderful questions that people had.

Then my daughters had the thought that it would be better to do this without me in the room. That seemed like a good idea to me. So that’s what they did. So they’re kind of doing a takeover on Unruffled for this week.

I just want to say a couple of things to preface this. One is that we are undoubtedly a privileged family in many ways. However, the majority of points that my daughters bring up and that I share about, I truly believe can apply to families in every situation if they value these ideas.

Another thing I want to mention is my daughters bring up RIE, which many of you may not know is an acronym for Resources for Infant Educarers. So that’s R-I-E, but it’s pronounced rye, like rye bread. This is a nonprofit organization founded by Magda Gerber. It’s also used as a name for her philosophy (or perspective) on early childhood that is the foundation of everything that I teach.

So with that, here are Charlotte and Madeline.

Charlotte:  Hi, I’m Charlotte. I’m 28 years old.

Madeline:  I’m Madeline, and I’m 24 years old.

Charlotte:  We have a younger brother, but he couldn’t be here today.

Madeline:  Our mom gave us some questions that people asked on Facebook. We’ll get to some of them and use that as sort of a guide to our conversation. But overall, we will just be discussing our experiences being raised by RIE parents, I guess.

Charlotte:  Here we go.

When, if ever, did you become aware of differences between the way you were parented compared to your friends or peers? Did you have any thoughts on these differences at the time? What’s something you noticed your parents did differently than others that you’re thankful for or didn’t like?

Well, I think I definitely was aware in a school setting, as far as being able to choose activities that we wanted to do. We were never made to do anything. I think that’s pretty fundamental to the philosophy, but we were never made to take a piano lesson. Everything was totally, organically had to be our idea.

Madeline:  And we did take piano lessons.

Charlotte:  And sometimes our idea was to take piano lessons, and it would be for three weeks, and then we’d be over it, and then we didn’t have to take them anymore. I think actually, maybe there was a moment of try to persevere a little bit, but for the most part, we were allowed to do whatever hobbies we wanted to. And so I think Madeline was interested in mad science. So she got to take mad science.

Madeline:  Yeah. I feel like we got to explore a lot of different interests, which helped us gain a ton of new experiences, even if none of those ended up carrying… I still now, if I’m doing the crossword, I know some of the music answers because I took music either in school and a little bit out of school, and I learned certain things that add to my knowledge of the world. But at the time I was like, I don’t want to do this anymore, and I just sort of threw that away. But I still gained stuff from it and at my own pace.

Charlotte:  Yeah. I have friends now who say pretty confidently that looking back, they wish that their parents would have forced them to do the violin or some sport because now they would be really good at it. I strongly feel totally the opposite. It’s much more important to me than my parents raised me in a way that fostered the sense of: we trust you to choose your activities and pursue-

Madeline:  On a day-to-day basis-

Charlotte:  Your passion of the day.

Madeline:  … as well. Yeah. I feel like I’m one of those people who says that sometimes, kind of jokingly, but like if I actually think back and evaluate, do I wish that I magically had some skill? Yeah. But that totally discounts all of the time that I would have had to spend doing something that I didn’t want to do instead of being able to explore stuff that I did want to do.

But something that we’ve talked about recently is that when you’re a kid, you don’t really know how other kids are parented. You can go to a kid’s house, and they have different foods. They have different toys and stuff like that. But you don’t see the differences in the parenting until you’re older, and you can talk to them later about like, “Oh, what were your parents like when you were younger?”

Charlotte:  Yeah. Whatever is in your household, you consider normal for a long time. I don’t know that much about how the brain develops, but there’s got to be a critical period for when you start comparing yourself to others.

Madeline:  It seems like middle school. I remember in middle school, all of a sudden everything was like… I was self-conscious in a bunch of different ways that I wasn’t before then, including what was at my house and what other kids had and stuff. But before that point, which is arguably the more important part in terms of the philosophy that our parents use, before that point, it’s not something that you notice every day. You don’t see other kids with their parents enough to understand what’s going on in their household, and you don’t care.

Charlotte:  Yeah. If you go over for a play date, you think of it more as like, oh, Catherine’s brand is to have a bunch of Cheez-Its there, or they always have this particular game. But you don’t feel that you’re less than because you don’t have that in your own house.

Madeline:  Yeah. So I don’t think you have to worry about your kids comparing themselves to other people in preschool. No child is that aware of those things or self-conscious about those things.

Charlotte:  Yeah. All right. Next question.

Madeline:  Next question.

Did we ever feel that we had been left out of something when we witnessed other parents play with their children in a non-RIE way, since we had not received that style of engagement/attention? This is this parent’s fear when not taking over and leading their child’s play.

This is a no brainer for me. No, not at all. Again, like what we were just saying, I think when you’re a young kid, you don’t really notice those things. And there was never a point when I was younger where I was like: ooh, I wish my mom would come and tell me what to play right now. Is it nice to be available for your child if they need another person to play with on their terms, with their rules?

Charlotte:  Yeah, let them be able to find you.

Madeline:  Right.

Charlotte:  Yeah. Anyway, it’s not to instruct anyone on how to be a parent, but to answer the question. Honestly, if I can think back to being a child and seeing the parents that really… I can remember specifically being in one of those clay pottery places, Color Me Mine or something, where you’re given a raw pot that you can paint however you want, and then it gets fired, and you have this lovely pot to take home or to give as a gift, and you can use whatever colors you want and paint however you wish. And I remember being there with my mom who was letting me do whatever I pleased on this pot, and looking at the table next to us, and there was a parent — it was like a very stark contrast. This mother was literally holding the daughter’s hand to help her paint a beautiful butterfly. And then finally the daughter just like gave up on trying to do anything on her own, having her own autonomy. So she kind of just lost interest. And then all of a sudden it was literally just the mom creating this piece of pottery.

And from what I can remember, my reaction was kind of like… this is dark. This mom is really intense. If anything, seeing a parent who was really obsessed with being a part of their kid’s play when I was able to kind of do my own thing, I looked at that as a bit much. I never felt, oh, I need more attention.

All right, next question.

Did they go through a rebellious period where they shut you out?

Madeline?

Madeline:  I definitely did, in high school, especially. And I think some of it was just some mental health stuff that I was going through at the unfortunate cross section of time in which a kid is even more naturally predisposed to start shutting their parent out. So it was sort of a combination of factors. But yeah, I definitely did. But I think the comfort that I had during that time was I knew that my mom wasn’t going to be offended by that in the longterm. She was never going to hold that against me. She maybe mentions it now, and we look back and laugh together.

I knew that when I was ready to come back and have conversations with my mom and be present and kind, then she would be there and ready to have those moments with me too. She was never going to hold against me the fact that I wanted to just sit in my room and ignore them all day or just be kind of mean or whatever. I knew that I was always going to be welcomed back in, which I think is really important because it’s totally natural. So many people that I know had that same phase with their parents, and not every parent is willing to take themselves, their personal feelings out of it and say… I know this isn’t about me. It’s about what my kid is going through right now. So let me just be there for them from afar where they want me.

Charlotte:  Yeah. Not trying to force it out of them.

Madeline:  Because that just leads to further pushing people away.

Charlotte:  Yeah. It’s like a rebellion, it feels like it’s like a long-term version of a tantrum.

Madeline:  Yeah.

Charlotte:  And you’ve got to let it happen.

Madeline:  Exactly.

Charlotte:  And play itself out.

Madeline:  Yeah.

Charlotte:  My only rebellion was that I wanted to dye my hair dark once, and my mom let me do it all by myself. And then it turned out striped.

Madeline:  And she regretted it.

Charlotte:  I regretted it. My mom didn’t.

Madeline: She learned her lesson.

Charlotte:  There’s my stripey haired daughter.

Madeline:  Next question.

Do we notice differences or similarities between us and peers in terms of handling hard situations or being able to navigate issues or feelings?

Charlotte:  I just feel that, maybe in comparison to my peers, let me say since high school, I have always had a really positive relationship to my emotions at every end of the spectrum. And I guess respected them in the same way that my mother respected them as a the kid, meaning if I am really in sadness, if something, if someone’s broken my heart, or I’m disappointed, and I have a regret or something, instead of trying to stifle it and push it away, I really do like to feel it. Because I do have a sense that if I don’t feel this thing, it’s just going to stay there bubbling under the surface, and I’m not going to be able to get through it.

So I’ve had friends who described trying to stifle their feelings, or repress them, or make an urge to make them go away, which I just really have never felt. It’s not great to feel sad or mad, but I really tried to feel them so that I can get through them. And I know that on the other hand is probably incredible happiness that can come through as long as I give time to the negative feelings.

Madeline:  I totally agree with that. I definitely have been taught that it’s okay to be sad one day, because most likely, nine times out of 10, I’ll wake up the next day with some distance and feel a lot better. And I just had to have a sad day, and that’s just what had to happen. And I feel like our parents gave us a lot of space to have that when we were younger.

Charlotte:  How do you feel that when you hear from friends about their upbringings? Do you feel grateful for the RIE approach?

Madeline:  I definitely do. I think anytime I talk to my friends about their parents and how they grew up, I can’t think of a single time where I have thought: man, I wish my parents were more like yours. Almost always, I’m like, I’m glad my parents weren’t like yours. I’m so lucky to have the parents that I did and to have been raised the way that I was. It’s hard to go all the way back to the core RIE stuff of infant and toddler and know really how that was different from my friends, but definitely the slightly older years that I do remember, there definitely feels like there’s a difference. And I always do feel like I come out on top in the parenting comparisons.

Charlotte:  Yeah. There were definitely times where I was frustrated maybe in the moment with, I don’t know, not being allowed to see a movie or something, but in the long run now, in hindsight, I realize everything actually was pretty perfect. And above all, something that I am grateful for is the relationship that this approach has fostered between my mom and I. And I feel like looking back everything that she did, every decision she made, her parenting style just totally above everything has made us have a really copacetic, mutually respectful bond that’s really special.

Madeline: Yeah. I agree with that. I definitely have a stronger relationship with my parents than a lot of people who I know and a lot of my peers in the long run. Even though I did have that moment of shutting them out and everything like that, it is now something where I feel like I can come to my parents with anything, and they will always be there for me. And if they need anything from me, I’ll reciprocate. Like there is definitely that mutual respect that is shockingly rare. And I don’t realize how rare it is until I talk to people my age.

Charlotte:  Yeah. I think that the trust element was really powerful. And I guess I always felt, and this has got to be since I was an infant, that my parents trusted me to make my own decisions. And of course-

Madeline:  They don’t let you drive off a cliff.

Charlotte:  Yeah, that can go totally overboard as being totally permissive. In no way, permissive. But just kind of through every phase of life, respectful and trusting that our instincts were at least a little bit right or just part of the process of our evolution as a human being. That’s something that’s really carried through and now has just fostered this great dynamic that I’m so, so, so grateful for, and I feel really stands out amongst my peers.

Madeline:  Great. Next question.

How do you think your relationships with your parents and siblings have evolved over time?

Charlotte:  Well, we touched on the relationship with our parents, and as far as how it’s evolved. It starts out being… a parent really has to parent because they have to make sure you don’t-

Madeline:  The safety net is a little tighter when you’re younger.

Charlotte:  Yeah. They have to make sure you survive. But then over time, we were then able to make our own decisions.

And I think you can touch more on our sibling dynamic. We’re all four years apart.

Madeline:  And so we all had phases of being really close with one of our siblings. Maybe you didn’t with Ben, the youngest, as much.

Charlotte:  No, I had it with you where you were my little doll.

Madeline:  So I had a phase first of being very close with Charlotte and playing together a lot. And then she got older, and then Ben got older, and so I could then play with him. And he was my-

Charlotte:  It’s like be the boss of them.

Madeline: Not baby doll. But when you’re an older sibling, you get to be a little bit the boss of the other.

Charlotte:  Madeline and I basically exclusively played school where I was the teacher.

Madeline:  Yeah. And I tried to do that with Ben and be the teacher, but it didn’t work as well. So we just sort of played with toys and went outside, and I don’t know, whatever. So I had moments where I was closer with Charlotte, and then moments where I was closer with Ben, and then moments after that where I just wanted to be close to nobody. And I think that there were conflicts during those times, but our parents never involved themselves to the extent of saying, “well, now you have to say, sorry.”

I think with my younger brother, I had a lot of conflicts with him where it would sometimes involve tackling each other, and someone would be in tears, mostly just for the drama of it, not because we were hurt. Of course, if we were hurt, that would be something different. But we had really some intense moments, and I never felt like I was forced to be sorry about it. I think I felt sorry about it when I realized, oh my gosh, what just happened with my sweet little brother? And because I was given sort of that moment to realize what had happened and feel bad about it naturally, rather than just being told, “well, now you have to say, sorry,” and it feeling super surface level, I was able to realize the impact that I was having on this other person who was smaller than me.

Charlotte:  Rather than being forced to save face just to soothe your mom. It can be terrifying as a parent to see your beautiful offspring mid tackle, but just trying to smooth it over and to force both parties to apologize or just to make nice is kind of…

Madeline:  Yeah. I feel like at the end of the day, the core of it is that I got to choose whether I liked my little brother or not. And at the end of the day, because he was my little brother, and he was sweet and fun, and we had so much fun together, I chose to like him. And now I adore him, and I think he’s the coolest person ever. But there were many moments where it might’ve seemed like I didn’t, and my mom could have tried to sort of selfishly say, “say sorry to him, say sorry to him.” And that wouldn’t have been genuine, and that would have fostered some sort of resentment. Whereas, because I was able to have the moment of naturally coming to that conclusion of feeling bad about something mean that I did to him, I was able to actually forge a genuine relationship with him that is now great because it got to be organic.

Charlotte:  Yeah. Next question.

Do we feel intrinsic motivation instead of doing things to seek approval?

Hundred percent.

Madeline:  Yeah.

Charlotte:  This was something that, in school, friends would talk about, “oh, my parents are mad at me for getting a bad grade.” Or, “I have to do this because my parents.” or, “They’re helping me with my homework.”

This was just totally foreign to me. And finally, as I was in high school, I was just fully aware of the situation being very different in my household than it was with my classmates, because my parents didn’t know if I had homework or not. They didn’t ask me. They kind of let school be my own territory. And whether or not I wanted to do an assignment was completely up to me. They realized that there are enough forces in effect at school, in that landscape, that you’ll be punished for a bad grade, and you’ll be rewarded for a good one within that context.

Madeline:  To be fair, we went to a school that was very academically…  that was placed in high importance. And it’s not in all schools, but in the school that we went to, it was. And so there were already forces at play that would make you want to do well. But in terms of our personal experience, I totally agree. And I think that our younger brother would also agree. We’ve all been very self-motivated, and we all want to do well. But I agree that I don’t really know why, besides just, we know that we can, I think. I knew that I was never going to be punished or rewarded either. I mean, I had friends who were paid for good grades.

Charlotte:  Yeah, my parents didn’t even get that excited if I did that well.

Madeline:  No, they sort of matched our level of excitement. So if we said, “Shoot, I got this grade, and I’m not that happy with it.” Then they would be like, “Oh, that’s too bad. But it’s not a big deal.”

Charlotte:  Because I think parents who would say, my kid is not doing well in this class, therefore I need to get them tutored in it. And they need tutoring because they need to get to this level. I think a lot of that comes from they feel like they’re failing if their child isn’t doing well. Maybe it’s just not the right time. Yeah. And I think forcing it, forcing it, forcing it is just another thing that probably breeds resentment between child and parent.

Madeline:  Yeah. I think school is the most clear example of intrinsic motivation.

Charlotte:  Yeah. And it’s something that can’t be taught.

Madeline:  Yeah.

Charlotte:  That’s what I read about in a psych book once. “Can’t be taught.”

Madeline:  All right. Next.

Someone said, they know it’s beneficial to limit screen time, but they’d love to hear the long-term benefits and our perspective on that.

I think the first thing that I’ll say is that screen time now is so different than screen time when we were kids — 20 years ago, I guess now, we were kids — because now screens are actively trying to take your child’s attention, whereas when we were kids, it was basically TV and movies. And then as we grew older, I think in a middle school-

Charlotte:  Computers got in the mix.

Madeline:  People started to get smartphones, and that’s something where the device is actively trying to get you to use it more. So it’s a lot more difficult to keep your kids away from it now. But that being said, it goes back to what we said earlier, which is that what is normal in your household is what kids see as normal. Our normal was we got to watch movies on the weekends, and we didn’t get to watch TV unless we were home sick. And so-

Charlotte:  I still feel sick when I watch TV. If I watch TV during the day, there’s something psychosomatic — I become sick. So that’s conditioning.

Madeline:  And I can’t just have TV on in the background because-

Charlotte:  I must engage with it. Because it was not put in front of us as a distraction or as something that would keep our attention while our parents could… I’m assuming while we were watching a movie, they did get to have some much needed “them time.” But that was never posed as a means to an end. It was just a nice little treat that we got to have. But TV, because it was something that we got to watch so rarely, to this day I have to actively engage with. I can’t just tune it out. Instead of being desensitized by watching so much TV, I’d say I’m super sensitive to it, I guess.

Madeline:  Which I don’t think is a bad thing, for the record. I think, at the time, did I wish that I could watch more? Maybe, because it felt like such a treat. It was like sugar in a way, in terms of, you want more because it’s exciting, and it tastes good. But it’s nice to keep that tasting good, and not for it to turn into this bland thing that doesn’t mean anything.

Charlotte:  Of course, it’s harder and harder these days because we now have phones –

Madeline:  Yeah. That’s what I’m saying. It’s like phones now, it’s totally a different game.

Charlotte:  Which you can constantly engage with and is more personal and is a whole other realm. It’s a screen, but it’s something that you’re engaging with actively.

But as far as how little we watched TV as kids, I can say a longterm benefit is if I have a moment of pause, and I have nothing to do, the last thing I think of is turn on the television. It’s ultimately, maybe I end up doing something a little more productive or more introspective.

Madeline:  Yeah. And in the moment too, if when we were bored as kids, we’d be running around the house going, “I’m bored, I’m bored, I’m bored.” And our mom would be like… “hope you figure that out, here’s some ideas if you want them, but none of them are going to be TV.” So we weren’t able to just pacify with TV. We had to figure out other ways of spending time, which I don’t know how that can possibly be a bad thing.

Charlotte:  Yeah. Friends who had households that were really overstimulating… We would have friends who had the new… because there were also video games, which we didn’t have. We never had.

Madeline:  Until we were older.

Charlotte:  Yeah. I never had one though because I was the first one.

Madeline:  Because you weren’t that interested anyways.

Charlotte:  I asked for a Game Boy every Christmas for four years. It just never came from Santa. It never came. It was Santa skipped over that line every time.

Madeline:  Well, I got a Game Boy when I was older because it was much more prevalent then, and I could make a three point argument why I ought to have one.

Charlotte:  I would just sneak it on the list and never got it.

But friends who came and had these awesome involved video games at their house, when they would come to mine, they would be, I think the word was thrown around, “I’m bored.” They were bored because they were used to being so overstimulated. But once they got in the vibe of the Lansbury household, and I showed them our playhouse, and I started involving them in a really, really, really upbeat game of house, they wanted to come to my house all the time.

Madeline:  Yeah. No, that’s true actually.

Charlotte:  Because it’s actually more fun, and you can sustain it for longer. You don’t get bored.

Madeline:  That’s true. I would go to my friend’s house who would have TV on all day, and I would get bored there. And there was nothing that I could do because my friend just wanted to keep watching TV. Whereas when they came to my house, we wouldn’t be allowed to do that. And so we’d have to play with dolls all day. And we could spend hours, and I would never get bored. So it’s just sort of a different-

Charlotte:  It’s not a mind-numbing experience.

Madeline:  Yeah, exactly.

Charlotte:  Anyway, that was a long answer. One more.

Was your mom always unruffled?

Madeline:  For the most part, I think. There’s never been a point where I feel like my mom lashed out at us for any reason, even if we were lashing out at her, which I think is what that comes down to really.

Charlotte:  Or when we’re in a state of stress, becoming stressful also.

Madeline:  Right. I’m sure that there was moments where she didn’t feel unruffled, but she never took it out on us, which I think is the important thing and the hard thing to do in that moment. But yeah, when we were having a tough moment, she would at least appear to me to be way calmer than I was when I was flailing around or whatever.

Charlotte:  Yeah.

Madeline:  And I think that that’s good. I do feel like even now, if I am having a really, really hard time, I do feel like my mom is that source of stability, and my dad as well. They’re both people who I can go to because, growing up, they were always the person who I could go to who would be calm and able to help me with an issue.

Charlotte:  Yeah. And I think I’ve been able to model that in my relationships as an adult. They’ve always let us feel the feeling, throw the tantrum, not get all worked up if we were in this high state of arousal. And I, now, in my close relationships, I’m able to model, I suppose, an unruffled approach when it comes to trying to manage other people’s feelings.

Our parents, when we were in a higher arousal state, they would, I think, not become very flustered or would just let us sort of feel those feelings and get through this blackout state where we’re so worked up that we can’t behave like ourselves or say anything that we actually mean. And as adults, everyone has their own version of little tantrums. And I’m always hyper aware of the fact that when a person’s in that state, I can’t trust anything they say, and that it’s something that they have to go through in order to come out on the other side. And so I try to practice my mom’s unruffled approach in my adult life. It usually works.

Madeline:  I think that’s all of the questions that we have ready to answer. So…

Charlotte:  Thanks for joining us. This has been fun. Thanks for letting us be guests-

Madeline:  Unruffled takeover.

Charlotte:  … on our lovely mother’s podcast.

Madeline:  Hopefully you liked us. Otherwise, you’ll never listen to another one again, but…

Charlotte:  No hate mail.

Madeline:  We probably missed stuff, but…

Charlotte:  Yeah, you can always throw us a follow on Instagram. Just kidding. I think that’s it. Hope you all are having a wonderful start to the new year.

Madeline:  Thanks for listening. Be safe, everybody.

Janet Lansbury:  Thank you so much, Charlotte and Madeline. It means a lot to me that you were willing to do this.

I also want to say that I was pretty surprised by my daughters’ conviction and effusiveness in some of the points that they made. What surprised me the most, actually, was this last question. Am I unruffled? Was their mother unruffled? And honestly, I would have thought my daughters would have said something more to the effect of, “well, my mom’s human, like anyone else. And most of the time, she was calm, but she had her moments, like all parents do.”

But they didn’t. So what this tells me is a couple of comforting things.

One, that our children’s memories tend to be forgiving. And two, we don’t need to be calm all of the time. We don’t need to be perfect. If we can embrace a respectful unruffled approach the majority of the time, that’s all that matters. Parents don’t need to be on their game at every moment, especially if we repair, we come clean with our children and admit our mistakes.

We really can do this.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category. So you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon: No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can also get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or Barnes & Noble and in audio at audible.com. You can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening.

The post My Daughters Weigh In on Respectful Parenting (with Charlotte and Madeline) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Raising Emotional Intelligence and Resilience for a Meaningful Life (with Susan David)”

Hi. This is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today we have a great podcast for you. I’ll finally be speaking with someone that I’ve wanted to have on the show for a long, long time, but she’s incredibly busy, so it hasn’t been easy. Susan David is a Harvard Medical School psychologist, CEO of Evidenced Based Psychology. She’s a TED Talk superstar and author of the award winning book, Emotional Agility: Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life. And that’s what we’re going to hear about today. What is emotional agility and why is it so powerfully important? How can we foster emotional intelligence and resilience in our children and ourselves to help us deal gracefully and successfully with all of our life’s ups and downs? I know you’re going to appreciate Susan’s insights and perspective.

Hi Susan.

Susan David:  Hi Janet.

Janet Lansbury:  I want to ask, first of all, how are you doing? Do you have children? Don’t you have young children?

Susan David:  So I live in Boston. My husband’s a physician. And it’s very interesting as parents. You go through the mundane activities of day to day life, exchanging post-it notes about who’s going to make dinner. And now my husband and I… He’s a doctor and he’s very involved, of course, in the virus and the experience from a professional perspective, and now we’re exchanging not post-it notes about dinner, but emergency contact information. And making decisions about, if he’s exposed, where’s he going to stay? Is he going to be able to see the children? And then I’ve got a six-year-old at home and an 11-year-old who are now apparently being homeschooled. Apparently.

Janet Lansbury:  Well, I love all the discussion that’s been going on about how that may be less crucial than we all imagine right now for this little bit of time. And taking the pressure off of that for parents, as much as possible. So yeah, we do our best, but we know that they’re learning so many other important things. Maybe more important things.

Susan David:  Correct. I truly believe that, I think for a child, being able to experience what it’s like to be bored, is actually a profoundly important learning experience. What do you do when you are just by yourself? And how do you get comfortable with that? I think there’s a lot of learning that happens in that way.

Janet Lansbury:  I agree. Can you talk a little about emotional agility, what it is and why it matters?

Susan David:  Yeah, absolutely. So, most of my work, all of my work in fact, is focused on one key question. And that is, what does it take internally, in the way we deal with our thoughts, our emotions, and even the stories that we develop over time that help us to thrive in an increasingly complex world?

Because we know that no matter what grades children have, and no matter what their outward skills are, ultimately what’s going to be the litmus of whether they are well and happy and thriving human beings is determined much more by what goes on inside of them — their capacity to navigate difficult emotions, thoughts, experiences, so that they can bring the best of themselves forward. And so my work really focuses on that. What are these fundamental skills that are critical for children? And that also, as it turns out, are critical for us as parents.

Janet Lansbury:  And to be able to offer this to our children, often it’s important for us to have it ourselves. And that’s one of the reasons I refer so many people to your TED Talk and your book, because I want to help parents be able to help their children by recognizing in themselves the importance of understanding and feeling okay with the discomfort of their feelings.

Susan David:  Absolutely. A lot of what I do in my TED Talk as well as in my work in general is… I’ve very much come up against this idea that a lot of us have in society, which is that we want to be happy all the time. We want to chase happiness. Happiness needs to be a goal. And often, we have that same want or desire with great intentions for our children. We want our children to be happy. And sometimes what happens is, that idea of happiness becomes then almost muddied with this other idea, which is, if they show unhappiness, then it means they’re not happy and that’s a bad thing.

And so what has happened I think in society in general, when it comes to our more difficult emotions like sadness, fear, grief, boredom, anxiety, stress, is we have very much this narrative that these are bad emotions. That they’re negative emotions.

And paradoxically it sounds like a good thing that we have joy and happiness. And that the other emotions go away because they are supposedly negative or bad. But not allowing children to experience difficult emotions, actually undermines their resilience, their wellbeing, and their happiness over time. Because the truth is that our children are growing up in a world… To use the phrase that I use in my TED Talk, in which life’s beauty is inseparable from its fragility.

Our children will one day be rejected by someone that they fall in love with or they’ll lose their jobs, or they’ll flunk a school test. They’re going to have difficult emotional experiences and so as parents, one of our most important roles, is to help our children develop a sense of comfort and competence with these difficult emotions, so that they’re no longer scary, but that the child actually has the resilience and capability to actually navigate them effectively.

And these are these fundamental emotional agility skills that I’m talking about. This idea that it’s not about positivity and happiness; it’s actually about developing capacity with a full range of emotional experience. So the children are able to navigate the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.

Janet Lansbury:  That reminds me of something my mentor, Magda Gerber used to always say, which is, “If we can learn to struggle, we can learn to live.” It’s one of my favorite quotes from her.

Susan David:  Love that.

Janet Lansbury:  And what you say, which is: “Discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life.” It’s easy for us to feel fine when things are going well, but it’s when we can be comfortable with that discomfort, then we are free. We don’t have to feel like we’re just walking this tightrope. If I fall off, I’m not going to be able to handle it. I can handle all of it.

Susan David:  I think that’s it exactly… Because what happens so much, and this is what a lot of my work has looked at, is how people, if they’re experiencing difficulty, they actually then, instead of just experiencing the difficulty: I’ve lost my job.  Or, I’m feeling unhappy here. Or, Things aren’t going well in this relationship. That’s what we call a Type One experience.

But then what we start to do is we start layering Type Two difficulties on the difficulties. Not only am I unhappy in my job, but I’m unhappy about the fact that I’m unhappy because I should be happy. Or we become judgy with ourselves about it. We get into this internal struggle with ourselves as to what emotions we should be allowed to feel and what emotions we shouldn’t be allowed to feel.

But our emotions, even the most difficult ones… guilt as a parent, for instance… our emotions contain signposts to the things that we care about. And so, if we move beyond this idea of trying to crush difficult emotions and we, instead, start being curious and compassionate with them: Gee, I feel guilty right now.  Or, I feel bored. I feel frustrated. And instead of trying to push them aside, we’re starting to say: What is it that I value? What is it that I care about that this emotion is trying to signpost to me?

So, I might feel guilt as a parent — it doesn’t mean that that guilt is a fact. It doesn’t mean that I am a bad parent. But what it might be helpful to do is, for us to just slow down into ourselves and say: What is this guilt telling me about what I care about? It might be telling me that I value presence and connectedness with my children, and I don’t have enough of it right now.

So what that does is it’s liberating. It opens up our capacity to make small, meaningful changes to our lives.

And so yeah, when I talk about this idea that, discomfort is the price of admission to a meaningful life, it’s really this idea that we don’t get to have periods of growth without discomfort. Be a parent, raise a family, start a new job or a new business or leave the world a better place… we don’t get to do those things without stress and discomfort. And so, if we can lean in to and open ourselves up to that discomfort and learn from it, that is profoundly powerful in terms of being able to move forward effectively.

Janet Lansbury:  Absolutely. And I was thinking when you were talking about the guilt that another thing we can learn from that as parents, and this happens a lot in the work that I do, is that maybe I am misinterpreting my role that my child needs to always be happy. Getting back to that full circle: If my child is not happy, now I’m doing something wrong. So it can be a way to learn that maybe what we’re perceiving is not the truth or not what’s most important.

Susan David:  Yes. If we think about guilt as an example, often when the person is saying, “I feel guilty because my child’s not happy. I feel guilty because my child’s not happy.” Even with very good intentions, it’s really about the person’s experience for themselves. So it’s still about the parent.

So what can be really helpful is to recognize that our emotions are data. Our emotions contain flashing arrows to the things that we care about. But that doesn’t mean that our emotions are facts. It doesn’t mean that because I feel guilty, I am guilty, and this is all of my responsibility. I can stand back and I can say: What are my emotions telling me?

When we do that, we can also bring other parts of ourselves in. We can say: What are my emotions telling me? What are other parts of me that are important here? Oh, as a parent, not only do I maybe want my child to be happy  (if that is your sense) but we can also think to ourselves: I want my child to be resilient. I want my child to experience what life is about so that they’re more ready to deal with it.

And now, no longer are we just trying to make my child happy in the here and now, we actually recognize that there’s very often wisdom in stepping back and in a thoughtful way, allowing your child to feel what they feel because there’s learning that comes from that, and that that child, in turn, is learning how to metabolize discomfort, and learning how to metabolize fear, and also learning really important aspects of emotional skills that are critical to all of us.

We need to learn that emotions are transient. And a child isn’t going to learn that emotions are transient if they aren’t able to sit with their emotions and recognize that, 10 minutes out, their emotion has passed.

So they’re critical, critical skills that pertain to our mental health, our wellbeing, low levels of depression, anxiety and so on.

And of course we can’t control all of this or manage all of this. But what we can do is we can start helping our children to develop the skills that are necessary to navigate the world.

Janet Lansbury:  And what would you say are steps that parents can take right now to feel differently about their emotions, or to get more of the perspective that you’re talking about? Are there concrete steps that we can take?

Susan David:  So for the parents themselves?

Janet Lansbury:  Yes. I want to take this opportunity, because you are someone that works with adults. And so many parents are asking me, “When I’m mad, what am I supposed to do?” I think it’s going to help parents to take advantage of you being here to help us with ourselves in our reactivity and why certain things our children do make us angry, and what we can do about that.

Susan David:  So the first thing that I would say is from a practical strategy perspective is, a lot of times, we live in an environment in which it’s being almost telegraphed to us that there are good and bad emotions. We are telegraphed this by the media that convey this idea that happiness is the be-all and end-all. But we also have experienced this in our own lives. The language that we use in psychology is “display rules.” Display rules are often the unspoken rules about what is an okay emotion to experience and what isn’t.

So for instance, if you grew up in an environment where every time you were angry, you were punished for being angry, “Go to your room and come out when you’ve got a smile on your face.” Or if every time you were sad there was no space for your sadness, you might have display rules about those emotions that, basically, suggest that sadness is bad or that anger is negative and that I shouldn’t be allowed to experience that.

And so what can often happen is we then grow up with judgments about these difficult experiences. And if we just step back and we think about, from an evolutionary perspective, there is a reason that every single one of these emotions evolved. There’s a reason that these emotions exist.

And the first person who actually wrote about this was Charles Darwin. And what he described is this idea that our emotions, every single emotion, even if it’s feels like a tough emotion, our emotions perform a function. The function is that our emotions are our way of, Number One, communicating with the world. But also, critically important is that our emotions have the function of helping us to communicate with ourselves, telling ourselves what’s important, what feels dissonant or incongruent with our values, emotions that are playing into a story that we might have about ourselves and our value and so on.

So the first thing that I’d say from a practical perspective is if you feel yourself or hear yourself as a parent going into this: I shouldn’t feel, that’s a bad feeling, that’s not a legitimate feeling, that’s not an allowed feeling, just see if you can end that struggle with yourself. See if you can just face into that emotion instead of with struggle, with compassion.

This is what I’m feeling. Raising a child is tough. I’m doing as a parent the best I can with who I am, with the resources and the history and the context that I have in life.

What you’re doing there is you’re moving away from that situation where you’ve got that Type One, which is the experience, and Type Two, where you lay on all these judgments. And, instead, you’re just moving into the space of openness to what you’re feeling and to a sense of compassion.

And what that starts to do is profound. It stops you from being hooked into the emotion.

We’ve all had that experience when the emotion grabs us and we react to the emotion. My husband’s starting in on the finances, I’m going to leave the room. Or, My child’s doing that. It’s upsetting me. I told them not to do it.

And so we blow a fuse, and that’s when the emotion has grabbed us. And what we’re trying to do as human beings is we try to develop a skill to develop greater space between stimulus and response.

I always loved the Victor Frankl phrase, this idea: between stimulus and response, there is a space, and in that space is our power to choose, and it’s in that choice that lies our growth and our freedom.

So as parents or as human beings, when we get hooked by an emotion, often there’s no space between stimulus and response.

So what we’re trying to do when we’re emotionally agile is we’re trying to create space for ourselves so that other parts of who we are, our values, our intentions, the best parts of ourselves can come forward.

The first step to this is actually letting go of the struggle that you have with whether your emotion is wrong or right, and seeing if you can open your heart up with compassion and acceptance to the reality of your experience right now. That is enormously liberating.

Janet Lansbury:  That’s beautiful. I can feel that right now.

Susan David:  When we get hooked by our emotion, we start treating the emotion as fact. If you imagine your emotion is a cloud… When we’re hooked by the emotion, we become the cloud. What we’re really trying to do is we’re trying to be the sky. We’re trying to be the sky, and that emotion is one cloud in our sky, but there are other clouds as well.

Janet Lansbury:  Wow, I love that.

Susan David:  There are some very important ways that we can deal with our emotions that we know from psychological science are really important. So I’ll give you some examples.

Often what people do is we use very big black and white labels to describe what it is that we’re feeling. So as parents we might say, “I’m stressed,” Or “I’m sad.” And you can feel when you use this language, when you say, “I am stressed.” You have become the cloud. You have become the emotion. 100% of me is defined by this emotion.

So we want to try to create space. And some of these things sound simple, but simple is powerful. Simple, when you have got a child screaming in CVS, simple is really important.

A simple strategy is just notice your thought or your emotion or your story. Your story about I’m not good enough or I’m not a good enough parent. Notice your thought, your emotion or your story for what it is. It’s a thought. It’s an emotion. It’s a story.

So instead of saying, “I am sad,” or “I am a bad parent,” “I’m noticing the feeling of being sad. I’m noticing that this is my bad parent story. I’m noticing that I’m having the thought now that no one ever supports me.” What you’re starting to do there is create a linguistic space.

So literally in the language we use, we’re starting to create space between ourselves and the emotion. That’s one really useful strategy, I think, for parents and for human beings.

Another one is this idea that when you use these very big labels to describe everything… “I am stressed” could mean “I haven’t had a chance to cook dinner” or it could mean, “I feel like I’m a complete failure as a person.”  Or, I’m stressed could mean, “I’m in the wrong job.”

When we label everything as, “I am stressed,” what it does is it, psychologically, doesn’t actually again allow us space.

So the work that I’ve done and that others have done as well on a very interesting topic called “emotion granularity…”  Emotion granularity is simply this idea that beneath these big umbrella words that we use are often highly differentiated emotions.

So if you say: what are two other things that I might be feeling beyond stress? And you say to yourself: disappointed or unsupported or exhausted, you can see what that does, being more differentiated. What it does is it starts helping your brain, quite literally, to understand the cause of your emotions. And you’re also starting to move into the space of saying: Ah, what I need to do is ask for more support. Or, pour myself a nice hot bath and take a rest.

What we’re doing when we label our emotions more accurately is it actually provides a psychological space that moves beyond, “I’ve got a problem and I don’t know what to do about it and I’m in panic mode.” Into something that is more solution oriented and connected with the reality of our experience, and it’s profoundly powerful.

Janet Lansbury:  That is so helpful. And I love what you said, too, about using language as a way to give a little more space there by just the words that we use, because the words that we use are important to how we feel about things.

Susan David:  What you’re doing there is you’re getting a little bit of distance between you and the experience.

When you’re working with a parent who says, “My child’s unhappy and I am responsible for my child’s happiness and this is terrible,” you’re so immersed in the experience that you can’t actually bring wisdom to it.

Every single one of us has wisdom. And if we can just open the space to that wisdom through perspective, through not allowing your emotions to call the shots, it’s about being compassionate with yourself. We open the space to wisdom. As we do that, there’s a little bit of a sense of distance that gets created.

It’s almost like your child’s still experiencing what your child’s experiencing, but no longer are you sitting in the boiling pot with the child. You are now at a distance. Not being distant, but there’s a kind of compassionate, boundaried experience that is very important. And it’s in that space that you can do your work as a parent, as opposed to being the victim in the space along with your child.

Janet Lansbury:  Yes. I love what you said also in your TED Talk about seeing emotions as inherently valuable, for that reason, because they’re giving us so much information about ourselves and our lives.

Children seem to instinctively understand, they’re quite willing to be in their emotions and that’s actually one of the reasons I love working with them.  It’s very clear they don’t have those abilities or needs to stifle themselves, so they put it all out there. “I’m excited, I’m scared. I’m sad.” And it’s in every cell of their body, that freedom that children have to just be in it.

Do you have a theory as to why we are, as human beings, so stifled generally in our emotions? As a society we do have this view of them as negative.

Susan David:  Yeah. It’s really interesting. There are different theories as to why that is the case. Some theories pertain to these display rules that have developed over time and often in response to needs in a particular culture, what a culture may see as being important in terms of task and logic and so on. So display rules can be rules that exist within our families, but they can also exist in our culture.

Other theories have suggested that, actually, what has happened is if you look at the way education developed over time, that when mathematics and physics and these things became very much part of formal education, what it really did is it allowed those things to come to the surface as being primary and important. And the aspects of ourselves that were difficult to be measured and understood were seen as being secondary.

I mean, even when I was doing my PhD in emotional skills, I found it incredibly difficult to find someone who was willing to supervise my work or to advise me. And this was because, even at that time, and we’re not talking that long ago, we’re talking 15 years ago, emotions were seen as being these things that you could not measure. And if you can’t measure them, then they don’t exist. They can’t be scientifically understood. And so there’s been, even historically in psychology, this really interesting push away from emotions.

And yet we know that the way we deal with our emotions drives everything. Our motivation, our leadership, our relationships, how we love, how we parent, everything.

Janet Lansbury:  Right, It is the fuel behind everything.

Susan David:  It’s the fuel, the fuel for literally every aspect of ourselves: our ability to regulate, our ability to put our longterm goals in front of us and stay focused on them, even though you really want to go to the party tonight. So it’s all these things that our emotions and being able to navigate them effectively actually drive.

Janet Lansbury:  And I would say they’re not just thought of as secondary, but even as getting in the way of productivity like, okay, put that aside. Or if for parents… When their child is upset: Well, okay, let’s get this over with quickly. Or, let me do what I can do to fix this so we can move on to other things.

But the child is actually in a place of release, and learning: it is okay to feel my emotions. I do survive this. It is all right. They’re learning such important things and we’re trying to rush them through and…

Susan David:  Yes. Every parent out there is just doing the best they can. And it’s really important for us to have a healthy dose of compassion for ourselves.

I remember many years ago when my son Noah was born… You’ve got this little baby six weeks old and you’ve birthed them and you’ve looked after them and you’ve loved them, and every single thing that they need you’ve done for them, and then you, of course, take them to the doctor to get their first shots. So you’re essentially handing them over to a stranger to be hurt.

(And just to be clear, especially in the current context, I am not anti-vaccine.) And I had this really remarkable experience where Noah was six weeks old and he was happy and goo-goo-ga-ga. And I took him to the doctor for his first set of shots, and Noah’s face turned from happy into absolute outrage.

He started screaming and yelling and yelling and yelling and I, this hormonal new parent doing the best that I could, picked my son up and I patted him and I patted him and he was screaming and yelling and I said to him, “It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.”

And I’ll never forget the doctor, with a nurse in the room, so kindly and compassionately, barely looking up from what he was doing. The doctor said to me, “It’s not okay, Susan. It’s not okay. Your child’s in pain.” And he said to me, “One day your child will come home from school and will be super upset about something and you cannot fathom why the child is upset about this little thing that has now turned big. You might not understand it, but that is what your child is feeling in the there and now, and it’s not okay.”

I remember going home and I was beating myself up about it. I was like brooding and trashing myself. I’ve got a flipping PhD in this stuff and I did the very thing that messes up your child for life. I invalidated my child. And I was going on and on and on.

And I remember my husband coming home from the hospital where he works. And as he walked in the front door and he said to me, “How’s your day been?”

I handed Noah over to him and I said, “I’ve had the worst day. You’ll never believe what I did.” And I told him the whole story and I said to him, “Noah was at the doctor and he was upset and he was crying. And you’ll never believe what I said. I said, it’s okay. It’s okay. It’s okay.”

Anthony just listened to me going on and on and on about this and then he’s very dry, funny, nerdy doctor, he looked at me and with this very naughty look on his face, he said to me, “It’s okay Susan.”

No matter what… Yes, yes, we know that when your child is upset, angry, whatever word we want to use for that very strong emotion, that child is feeling… We know that not trying to solve the problem, literally just showing up to the child the same way as we’ve been saying, showing up to ourselves, making space for the emotion, not being judgy about it, not trying to do away with it or push it under the carpet, just creating space for it is incredibly powerful. And we know that a child who feels seen and accepted, not judged for feeling a particular emotion, that that emotion immediately starts to actually dissipate.

We also know that we can, at a very young age, help children to label their emotions. “Is it that you’re sad or is it that you’re mad?” And we know that children can do this and we know that this is a critical skill that’s associated with wellbeing.

We know that we can also help our children to understand that, just like I said earlier, our emotions contain signposts to the things that we care about. So the child who comes home from school who says: “Jack didn’t invite me to the birthday party. Now I’m not going to invite him to mine.” That child is showing no space between stimulus and response. The child is just: I feel something and I’m going to react. And we’re trying to help our child to develop space between stimulus and response.

Why? Because we want our child when they’re tempted by drugs when they’re 16 years old to recognize: This is what I feel like doing. But actually that’s not who I am as a person.

We want our child to be able to have space between stimulus and response.

So if we can start saying to our child, “You’re upset because Jack didn’t invite you to his birthday party, and that sucks. That’s a horrible feeling.” Instead of trying to make it all better. “That’s tough.” If we felt rejected in that way it would be difficult. So showing up to that sadness, helping the child to label the sadness…

But then the third part of emotional agility is this idea that we can help our children to understand their “why,” the signpost of what it is that their emotions are signaling is important. So we can start saying: “It’s sounds like friendship is really important to you. You’ve been rejected and it sounds like friendship is really important to you. What does being a good friend look like to you? How do you want to be a friend? How do you want to be a friend in this situation?”

What you are starting to do is you’re now not starting to just solve the emotion, we’ve started to do something far greater…

We are helping children to develop their sense of values, their moral compass, their character. This doesn’t come from us telling children what to believe or what values to hold. It comes from children’s starting to say: This is what’s important to me.  To actually internalize that.

So, instead of that thing of like: I’ve got to solve the child’s emotion and return to happiness, we recognize that there’s so much beautiful learning that happens in those pockets of unhappiness.  And the learning is the child says: You see me and you love me anyway. That’s powerful.

The child says, I feel this and I recognize that what I feel is actually something else, and I’m labeling my emotions effectively.

The child says, I feel this and it’s telling me that friendship is important. I am someone who stands up for fairness.

We are developing the child’s moral character. And that is beyond.  If we can create those little pockets of time, and it might not be when your child is lying on that floor in CVS, it might be that you’re having that conversation at night, cuddled up in bed when everything’s calmed down.

But back to my story about the doctor, we don’t always manage to do this. We don’t always manage to bring that part of ourselves — the equanimity — forward. We just always need to remember that it’s okay, we can be compassionate with ourselves as parents. We’re doing the best we can with who we are and with the resources that we have available to us at any given time.

Janet Lansbury:  I’ve been practicing this with parents for more than 20 years in classes where they come with their children, talking parents through it, practicing with my own children and seeing again and again that it’s the best possible thing to allow that child to have the feeling, and see how they pass through it, and how they feel much better and they’re centered again, and they love you for letting them do that and all these positive reinforcements and still… Still, it’s the hardest thing for me.

Every time, all those feelings come up for me. I want to make it stop. I want to make them better. I want to call that parent of the child who didn’t invite my child to the party and tell them off. All those feelings still come up. So, absolutely, the compassion for ourselves, because it is something that I don’t believe that we can ever master and say: Okay, this is just no problem for me anymore. When my dear child’s heart is aching or is angry at me or anything, there’s no way that we can, I don’t think, ever feel: Oh yeah, okay, I’ve got this.

Anyway, I don’t.

Susan David:  What are we really teaching our children in these spaces, what I call “the messy spaces,” the learning that comes from this with our children with emotions is that, Number One, emotions pass. They are transient. And knowing that emotions are transient is a critical piece of learning. It also telegraphs to our children that our emotions and that their emotions are not scary. That they are bigger than the emotion. And as we’re teaching our children this, exactly as you say, we’re also teaching ourselves, because it’s tough.

Janet Lansbury:  Yes. And I would say that we need to do that first before we’re able to give it to our children but, actually, I think it can also work the other way, because that’s how it’s worked for me, that I’m learning through practicing this with my children. I’m learning through that to give it to myself. So it can be the other way around.

Susan David:  Absolutely.

One of the things that also just comes to mind… even as we think about this as we were talking about the value of different emotions earlier, one of the emotions that parents will often describe as this thing of, “Well, I feel guilt and does that mean that if my children have done something wrong that I should just be like, ‘Oh, I’m just creating space for them to be whoever they want and feel whatever they want?'”

You can show up to your children’s emotions. You can be validating and connecting and create space for them, but that’s not the same as saying, “Oh, because you’re angry, you just get to act with impunity.”

The example that I used in my TED Talk is: I can show up to my son’s frustration with his baby sister. I can empathize with it and really connect with it. But it doesn’t mean that I’m endorsing his idea that he gets to give her away to the first stranger that he sees in a shopping mall.

We own our emotions, they don’t own us. And so with this is also, of course, that we have expectations of our children and that we’re trying to foster autonomy in them and we’re trying to give them choice wherever possible. But it’s not choice without expectation as to what is okay and what’s not okay.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. And that’s where the line has to be in that: “It’s okay to feel like getting rid of your sister, but I’m here to stop you from doing that.”

But I don’t judge you as like, “How could you think of such a thing?”

Or I don’t say, “Well I’m not going to let you do this really fun thing that you want to do, but you can’t be disappointed about that. You have to feel okay that I said no to this.”

That’s something that I think we get caught up in as parents, because maybe this is the way that we have been raised, where not only do you not get what you want, but you’re not allowed to complain about that. You’re not allowed to have a feeling about that.

Susan David:  Yeah, exactly.

I spoke a little bit earlier about the experience of an emotion as an emotion and we don’t want to conflate that emotion with all of us. And I think this is very important with children when we think about the difference between shame and guilt as well. Guilt is a very, very powerful and very important emotion. It’s one of what psychologists call the social emotions. If we didn’t have guilt in the world, we would all be running around just doing whatever we wanted, whether it hurt people.

Guilt is a very important emotion that enables society to thrive and function effectively.

But it’s really important to internalize the difference between guilt and shame. Guilt is when you’re saying to your child, “This behavior is wrong. This thing that you did is unacceptable.” Guilt, it’s targeted at a very specific behavior and it’s something that the child can choose then not to do again.

Shame is when we send a message to the child that you are wrong, you are a bad person. You having done this thing says something about who you are as an individual.

There are some really interesting studies that have looked at the difference between guilt and shame. For instance, in prisons, if you have people who’ve committed a crime and you look at when those individuals are released from prison, what is going to predict whether the person re-offends versus doesn’t? And as it turns out, people who are filled with shame are more likely to re-offend because there’s almost a sense of: I’m a bad person no matter what I do and therefore my behavior’s not in my control.

People on the other hand who feel guilt: It’s a very specific thing that I did wrong and I choose then not to be able to do that specific thing again are less likely to re offend.

So in communicating expectation, it’s also really important for us as individuals, when we do something wrong as parents or as spouses or loved ones, to be careful not to conflate what we’ve done wrong with ourselves. I might have done the wrong thing and I feel guilty and therefore I can make it right. And be careful not to imprison ourselves where I’m now defined by this thing, which is shame. I am a bad person.

Janet Lansbury:  That’s so fascinating. Unfortunately, I think we have to finish and I could geek out on this all day. I’m just…

Susan David:  Me too. Love it.

Janet Lansbury:  I’m so fascinated by you and so grateful for your work and I know that you’re changing the world and just so happy to be able to share that with my listeners here. Thank you so much, Susan.

Susan David:  Thank you for inviting me on the show I really loved the conversation.

Susan offers a free Emotional Agility quiz HERE on her website. The personal report was insightful!

“The Emotional Agility Quiz gives you personalized feedback on how to be more effective with your thoughts and emotions, so you can come to your everyday choices and your life with more intention and insight. Emotional Agility helps you cultivate real thriving at work and at home.
The quiz takes just 5 minutes to complete. You”ll receive a free 10-page personalized report offering specific strategies to help you become more Emotionally Agile.”

And Susan’s wonderful book is a favorite of mine: Emotional Agility: Get Unstuck, Embrace Change, and Thrive in Work and Life

Also, both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting.  You can get them in ebook at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com, and in audio at audible.com. As a matter of fact, you can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Raising Emotional Intelligence and Resilience for a Meaningful Life (with Susan David) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “What Children Really Need to Succeed in School… and Life (with Rick Ackerly)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled. Today I have a special guest joining me, Rick Ackerly. Rick is a nationally recognized educator, author and speaker with a master’s in education from Harvard University and in his first book, The Genius In Every Child: Encouraging Character, Curiosity and Creativity in Children, Rick explains that genius is not just about intelligence and aptitude, it’s also a word that embodies our inner soul, nature and character. His heartwarming stories as a former principal and father shed insight into children and the process of education. Rick has served as a head of five schools since 1974, and he currently consults with schools and speaks to parent groups around the country. He publishes essays on parenting and education weekly on his blog, geniusinchildren.org, so I know you’ll be excited to hear from him. So here he is. Hello Rick.

Rick Ackerly:  Hi Janet, how are you?

Janet Lansbury:  Thank you so much for being willing to come on and share with us.

Rick Ackerly:  Always my pleasure.

Janet Lansbury:  You were probably one of the first comrades that I met online, in social media. I can’t even remember how we connected.

Rick Ackerly:  I remember. You were one of my first Twitter friends and I quoted you after following you a little while. “Janet Lansbury says, ‘Children are whole people.'” And I put that on one of my early blogs.

Janet Lansbury:  It’s been such a gift to have your support, your corroboration, your insights from your very different perspective that are completely compatible with mine, I feel.

Rick Ackerly:  Yeah.

Janet Lansbury:  Really, I can’t appreciate you enough.

Rick Ackerly:  Thank you. And likewise.

Janet Lansbury:  What I wanted to focus on with you today is when we talk about things like school readiness and how to give our children the tools or help them hone the tools that they need to succeed and thrive. And as you and I both know, thriving in school is the same as thriving in life. We need the same traits…

Rick Ackerly:  Yes.

Janet Lansbury:  And you have, of course, this long time perspective as a problem solver type administrator. You worked directly with a lot of the children when they were having issues. And I was wondering if you had seen certain trends, or noticed certain traits that stood out as signs that children could thrive in these environments.

Rick Ackerly:  Well, the most important research, if someone could read only one thing, it would be Alison Gopnik. She’s written a couple … at least a couple of really good books or go to one of her Ted talks. The core concept is that kids are not empty vessels to be filled up with information. They’re not so much needing to be trained, they are scientists. They are born scientists, and every move they make for the first five years of their lives is testing the environment. So every move they make is a hypothesis, and they test that hypothesis against that reality and they readjust the hypothesis, and they keep going like that.

Every minute of every day they’re studying how people react, how to build relationships, how to make friends, how to collaborate. Everything from playing with Legos to building a tree house or playing a game, eating dinner, or helping the family prepare for dinner or all of that. They’re learning how to make it in the world. So that by the time they walk in the door of a kindergarten, they have been doing research on the world for 43,000 hours.

But the most important thing, which is ignored by most schools and not handled that well by many parents, is that they think we have to do stuff to kids to get them educated. And that’s completely opposite. We have to create the conditions in which we facilitate them doing it.

Janet Lansbury:  Well, they are the experts at this, right? That’s what Alison Gopnik says.

Rick Ackerly:  That’s right. Act as if they are the experts.

Janet Lansbury:  Well, they really are, because they’re built to learn more in these early years than in the whole rest of their lives put together, in terms of gathering knowledge. So we don’t want to get in the way of that. We want to support them, understand that they know what they’re doing.

Rick Ackerly:  Yes, treat them as if they know what they’re doing.

Janet Lansbury:  And of course they need our boundaries and to help keep them safe and keep them appropriate. But yes, absolutely. I love that you brought up Alison Gopnik because I’m in love with all the understanding that she’s brought to the public about the way children learn and how, again, they are the experts and they’ve got the tools. And we do make that mistake, I think, as parents. Even when we understand this research — that they are absorbing and learning so much in these early years, it can be tempting to want to say: well, let me give them numbers and letters and colors, math problems, let me put more stuff into them. But the way that they’re taking things in is so much more profound. They’re practicing their higher learning abilities.

Rick Ackerly:  That’s right. Yeah. I think it’s very important for parents who are looking forward to school, or looking forward with terror to school or, whatever, anxiety, fear or confidence. I hear over and over again that the main thing is reading. It’s all about reading. Well, first of all, it’s not all about reading. But let’s just say it is all about reading… The average age at which a child is physiologically ready in every way is six and a half, which is why first grade is when it used to be reading is taught, quote, taught. But the range at which someone is ready to read is anywhere from three years old to nine years old. Not when they do read, but when they’re physiologically and neurologically ready to read. That varies a lot between kids. And our whole culture is: Oh my God, we’ve got to get them reading early. If they’re not reading, by the time they’re ready for kindergarten, you know they’re going to be failing.

That is like trying to take a car that’s in second gear and drive it 60 miles an hour. You have to work with the child at their point of readiness. And they can be ready for other things. If you put words in front of them and their eyes bounce off the page, that’s fine. That’s fine. See what they are ready to do and help them do things that they’re ready to do. It’ll all feed into reading when it’s time for them to read, because the entire world, their environment is so full of letters and numbers, and everybody else is doing it. At some point they’re going to want to do it and they’ll, in their own way, figure out how to do it. I mean, I didn’t read until I was in fifth grade and I got a great education. I went to Williams College, I went to Harvard graduate school and I’ve written the books. It’s not a killer if you can’t read.

Janet Lansbury:  How was that handled when you were in school? Because that’s, of course, the danger when we do try to harness some types of knowledge that children aren’t ready for, that they lose confidence in themselves as learners. What gets thwarted is this most precious thing that we have, which is I’m capable, I can do things, I can learn, and I know what I’m doing. That is the precious part that we don’t want to interfere with. How did that go for you? Were you made to feel less than, or …

Rick Ackerly:  Let’s start with the blessings that made it easier. The first is that my parents didn’t let on much that they were anxious about it, and they didn’t feed that anxiety to me. They acted as if I’m accountable to my teacher and the teacher’s accountable for doing whatever is necessary to get me to read. It wasn’t that I couldn’t read, it was that I was a slow reader. It didn’t feel good to be behind other people in reading. I do remember in first grade we were sitting in circles and we were literally reading: “See Jane run.” There was those books. And Johnny read, “See Jane run, look, look, look.” And then it got to me and I haltingly read the words that were in front of me, and we went around the circle and it was okay. A week later or something like that, maybe the next day, Johnny is in a different group and I’m in this group and I said, “Wait, why is Johnny in that other group?” A: Johnny was my friend and, B: I compared myself to Johnny.

I used Johnny as sort of a benchmark for how I was doing and I thought I was keeping up with him. And the teacher said, “That’s the good reading group and you’re in the slow reading group.”

And I went, “Wait, wait, wait. That’s not correct. I’ve been comparing myself to Johnny and we’re the same.”

She said, “No you aren’t. He’s a better reader than you.”

And that was a blow. That was not good. It didn’t ruin me. And I kept trying to read and my parents had books by the side of my bed, mostly picture books. But I learned how to read. But one of the real blessings I had is that dyslexia hadn’t been invented yet. I’m sure I would have been diagnosed with dyslexia, but it wouldn’t have done me any good. I needed to learn how to read in my own way. And the entire environment was conspiring to get me to read.

I did. I’m still a slow reader because I read every word and I think about it and I go back. My wife, who’s a very fast reader says, “Everybody says I’m a good reader and you’re a bad reader. But the thing is, I can read a whole book in a weekend, but I don’t remember a thing. And you remember everything you read.” So who’s the good reader and who’s a bad reader? Schools and parents need to be very careful about getting all bent out of shape about reading, and especially at an early age because there are so many other pathways to success. Not that there’s nothing to worry about, but worrying is not that constructive. That’s all.

Janet Lansbury:  Right. It’s that thing of children not being able to learn as well when there’s too much stress in the environment.

Rick Ackerly: Yes.

Janet Lansbury:  And what you’re also reminding me of with your comment about comprehension is that, when children are younger, there are some children that are vocalizing language much earlier than others. Parents get worried about that and, yes, of course, like you said, there are things to look at and maybe get checked at some point, but oftentimes that child is comprehending just as much, if not more, than the child who’s speaking.

Rick Ackerly:  Yes. It’s one of the neuroses in our society. Get there quicker, faster, sooner, and you’ll be better.

Janet Lansbury:  Right.

Rick Ackerly:  So one of my daughters, she’s a teacher, she has three sons. None of them spoke at all fluently until four and a half years old. None of them. I don’t know why. But under those circumstances, a lot of people, including me, might be inclined to think: Well, they just don’t know what’s going on. Maybe they’re even stupid. They don’t seem to know stuff.

That was wrong. They are so observant. They’re picking up everything. The words that we spoke to them were in their head. And it really became clear to me when the first one, from between four and a half and five, he started to stutter and his mother said, “Gee, maybe we should get him tested.” And I said, “Well, let’s just wait a little bit.”

I had a hypothesis that he’s having a motor problem. He knows the words, he hears the words, he knows the meaning, he knows what’s going on, but there’s some glitch between that and it coming out of his mouth. And sure enough, his stuttering was about working through this motor problem. By five, he was speaking quite fluently. He’s 11 now, he’s getting good grades in school, and you should see him in action. Absolutely no dysfunction whatsoever. He’s right up there with everybody else. But just another example of, in our society, one of the neuroses is the faster you move up the ladder, the smarter, better, more successful you will be, and that’s wrong. It’s just not correct. There’s no data to support that at all.

Janet Lansbury:  The only thing I feel like earlier is better in is for the parents to start trusting their child as a capable person. Because the comprehension thing, I see it in infants. When you start talking to infants about what you’re doing with them, they respond as if they understand, because they do. So a child who’s speaking at age two, let’s say, speaking words, has absorbed all this language for years already.

Rick Ackerly:  And that’s kind of what I was saying about my grandsons. It’s not that they didn’t understand. It’s not that they didn’t know the words and they couldn’t follow the directions, and it wasn’t that they didn’t know what was going on. But to make like it’s a problem is a mistake. It’s just how they’re developing. And that’s sort of a theme running through everything you say, and what you said in the very beginning. The first step is to believe in them, know that in their own peculiar, sometimes distressing way, they will develop.

Janet Lansbury:  And Magda Gerber said this all along, not these exact words, but why can’t we enjoy what children are doing instead of focusing on what they’re not doing? And that aligns directly with your book, The Genius In Every Child.

Rick Ackerly:  Yes.

Janet Lansbury:  As parents we’re always going to worry about something. There’s always something to worry about. I know that I have three children, they’re all adults now. I’m always worried about them. So, to tame our own worries and take that leap of faith to trust, it is very challenging. It’s not easy. But it’s so important that we encourage what our child does have. And that not only helps them to hone those talents and foster them, but it helps them on this most important level of the self confidence, the belief in self as able.

Rick Ackerly:  So Howard Gardner is important because he shows that one’s intelligence, one’s self, one’s way of manifesting in the world, what you’re good at, what you’re not good at will show up in a wide variety of ways. There are all sorts of different ways that the complex organism of the brain organizes itself. For instance, when I was a kid, I was always on the floor of building things. I played with blocks and the precursors of Legos, and nobody would have said, “Oh, that’s going to really help you in math someday.” But it did.

I can literally say that… when was it? In fifth grade we started multiplying and dividing fractions. It was not at all a surprise to me that four times one over two equals two, because we had a block, and then we had half blocks and four half blocks equals a double. That was built into my brain from block building. So it was easy when it came time to put symbols to it.

The other people who hadn’t been building with blocks found it very difficult. It’s just another way of saying what you’ve been saying all along and what Gerber says is trust their way of approaching the world, of doing their research on the world, of diagnosing the world, and support it and engage with it. Ask questions, participate. Make it your research project.

Gosh, how does he learn? How does she handle this? And they come home, “So and so’s picking on me.”

“Well, tell me about that. How does that work? Tell me what exactly what happened on the playground.” Right?

“What did she do? What did you do?” Not with any sort of: I’ve got to solve this problem. Because it’s not your problem. It’s the kid’s problem.

Janet Lansbury:  Exactly. Is that what you did as an administrator when …?

Rick Ackerly:  Oh yeah. So the normal thing to do is if two kids — third graders — are fighting on the playground or something like that and they’re sent to my office, the normal thing to do is sit them both down and say, “What’s your side of the story? What’s your side of the story?” Because it takes two to tango. Well, it may take two to tango, but that’s not the best way to empower each child to become better and better at negotiating the world.

I would send one into the hall to sit in a chair in the hallway while I talked to one of them. And I would say, “What did you do to get yourself here?”

And the child might say, “I didn’t do anything. The teacher’s being unfair.”

“Okay, but what did you do?”

“Well, it’s no fair because she …”

“Okay, the next word out of your mouth has to be ‘I’ and then there’s a verb and then you can say anything you want. I what?”

“Poked my finger in his eye.”

“Okay.”

In other words, I’m trying to maximize everybody’s responsibility. 100%- zero, not 50/50. Sure, technically it takes two to tango, but that’s disempowering. I want every kid to know how not to get sent to my office.

Janet Lansbury:  That’s brilliant.

Rick Ackerly:  On their own. “Okay, you made a mistake, yeah. What are you going to do about it? Okay, say you’re sorry? Will that work, will that be sufficient? It’s not sufficient. What do you have to do? Well, maybe you have to … ”

All problem solving. That person in front of me is the only person that matters right now. The person out in the hallway, that’ll come. The teacher who wants to make sure I handle the problem properly, that’ll happen later. But that student in front of me is the only thing that matters right now. And what matters about that student? Their empowerment, their self actualization, their ability to do what they want to with their lives, and they probably don’t want to spend in the headmaster’s office.

So then I just send that person out, bring the other person in and I do the same thing. And maybe, it depends on what they say, they might both come back in and they’d both say something to each other.

And I’d say to one, “Did that fix the problem?”

“Yes.”

And I’d say to the other, “Did that fix the problem?”

“Yes.”

“Okay. Do you have to do anything else?”

“Yeah, I think we better go talk to the teacher.”

But it’s all their self-determination. We have to empower their ability to make something of themselves. That’s the whole thing.

Janet Lansbury:  That’s great. I think you’ve actually answered my other question, which was what to do as parents if maybe we haven’t given our child this space to develop their own talents and their own view of the world? What if we we’re coming to this later and we want to make changes? And I think your answer… it sounds like would be: “Just open it up now. Empower them now. Be curious about them, give them ownership of their lives and their conflicts, and just make that change at any time.”

Rick Ackerly:  Right. And we’re not giving this to them. They have it. Their inclination to self-determine, they come into the world with it. We’re respecting it. We’re appreciating it. Working with it.

Janet Lansbury:  Exactly. We’re acknowledging that it has been there the whole time. There was a quote that I actually shared yesterday and it got a very big response on one of my pages. It’s from Seth Godin. It just sounds spot on for your book, The Genius In Every Child and also the work that I do with infants and toddlers and preschoolers. He says, “My proposed solution is simple. Don’t waste a lot of time and money pushing kids in directions. They don’t want to go. Instead, find out what weirdness they excel at and encourage them to do that. Then get out of the way.”

Rick Ackerly:  And I agree with that. Except the “get out of the way” part. Yes, don’t be in the way, but go hand in hand, or at least follow them. I am not for leaving your kids alone so much as building a relationship with them that respects their autonomy and their drive for self-determination. And you have to play your role, which is to set boundaries maybe sometimes. They’re actually looking to you, who has, what? 30 to 40 years of experience, to know stuff that they don’t know. Yes, I am a scientist. Yes, I will investigate the world. Yes, I’m going to determine my own life. But you know a lot more, so you could whisper something in my ear.

Not wanting to be an authoritarian doesn’t mean you ought to keep your mouth shut. You have all sorts of things you could tell them about what might be a better move, as long as you’re not implying that they’re not very good at making decisions. But have a relationship with them, make sure they know they’re loved, they need to know that you’ve got their back.

Janet Lansbury:  Absolutely. And I would also add that as parents, if we can learn to let go of those worries, the hovering, and that super interventionist approach, we can enjoy who our child is. It’s a process of discovery. It’s much more fun as a parent than trying to second guess and maybe fail because I’ve spent a lot of money putting you into this and putting you into that thing that I thought would be the best, and it didn’t work. So we can free ourselves of all of that.

A wonderful thing about parents today that I’ve noticed is that they want to be more involved, and that’s great. You can be so involved, as you’re saying, in an enjoyment and fostering level that’s so healthy and wonderful for your child and it builds an amazing relationship. It doesn’t need to be: well, either I’m involved and I’m hovering and taking over or I’m not involved at all. I’m out of the way and I don’t care about them and I’m just standing back.

No, as you said, we can be right there observing and supporting, if we can work on taking our worries out of the picture. If we can take our own: oh, I’ve got a better idea for how these blocks should go out of the picture. If we just put these blocks over here, I could teach him red because there’s a red one.

I know that I get so many great ideas as a teacher with young children when they’re playing and I feel them all coming up and I try to pause and tell myself: Oh no, just wait and see. They always surprise you with something much more interesting because it comes from them. This can be the joy of parenting, watching our child unfold, what Seth Godin calls the weirdness, or you call the genius.

Rick Ackerly:  Yes.

Janet Lansbury:  I love Magda Gerber’s magic word “wait” too. So waiting a little first, because they may figure it out in a different way. So just being in that more responsive mode. Now I see my child is really stuck and I’ve given it that wait moment or two, and now maybe I can give them some kind of minimal guidance so that they could do more.

Well, Rick, I just want to tell everyone, if you haven’t already, please check out Rick’s book, The Genius In Every Child. I’ll be linking to it in the transcript and I’ve been recommending it on my website for… forever. You’ll find that, again, it’s very compatible with everything that I talk about in early childhood, but it really takes it a step further because of Rick’s incredible experience as a school head and inspirer of not only children, but adults and teachers. He’s a blessing. So thank you so much Rick, and we’ll do it again, I hope.

Rick Ackerly:  Good. I hope so too. It’s always good to talk to you.

Also, both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting.  You can get them in ebook at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com, and in audio at audible.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

Rick Ackerly’s book is available here: The Genius in Every Child

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