Transcript of “As Our Kids Get Older – 5 Ways to Continue Building Lasting Emotional Bonds”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be responding to a question, a couple of questions, actually, that I’m often asked—and by the way, I love any kinds of questions that you send me, so please keep them coming! The questions are around, What does your approach—respectful parenting or the RIE approach—look like as children get older? Does RIE end at two years old? What do you do then? What approach do you go to after that? Sometimes they’ll ask me, Who does what you do, but for older kids? And by “older” they might mean kids beyond three or four or five years old. So I thought I would take this opportunity to clarify some things about this approach I teach and my background.

What I’ve called “respectful parenting” is my interpretation of Magda Gerber’s Educaring Approach, commonly known as the RIE approach. And RIE is R-I-E, that’s the acronym for the nonprofit organization that Magda founded with pediatric neurologist Tom Forrest in 1978 called Resources for Infant Educarers, RIE. RIE was created for the first two years of life, and all the specific guidelines that Magda offered pertain to those first two years of life. In that sense, it does end at age two. But the whole purpose of this approach, and the whole reason it’s focused on zero to two, is that this is a foundational approach. It’s a way of understanding our children as babies and our relationship with them, a nurturing healthy relationship, how to navigate that in the first two years and give our child the foundation that they need, and our relationship the foundation it needs, to flourish for all the rest of the years. So this isn’t now we stop doing this and now we’re going to start spanking our child or molding them like clay. This approach lasts throughout children’s adulthood, and I can verify that as a parent of three adults.

Another question I’m often asked is, Is there a RIE person for older years? And there is not a RIE person for older years, because there isn’t a RIE approach for older years. What I’ve done is interpreted and also used my experiences—not only as a parent of three very different children with unique needs and temperaments and talents, but also the many families that I’ve consulted with over these past almost 30 years now, who have children up to age 10 or so. And some of these have been in-person consultations, some have been telephone conversations. And I’ve mainly learned that this approach is still totally valid and works for children of all ages. This same approach that is focused on the first two years of life continues to work. Personally, I’ve never needed anything else as a parent with my own children. Maybe because I’ve put so many years into studying and training, and then practicing and teaching this approach, that it’s foundational in me, in the way that I perceive everything.

I find it so interesting, too, that all these studies show that in the first three years of life, children are learning more, developing more than in the rest of our lives put together. And yet these early years are the ones we don’t remember, right? Magda focused on the first two years because it’s the beginning, and if we can set ourselves up in the beginning, then we’re giving our child something, and ourselves something, that will last.

One of the reasons is because of what science shows, that this is the most important time for children in terms of their self-confidence, their sense of self, even basic character traits, many of them that we’re modeling and they’re learning them that way. This is a precious time. We could say the most precious time in terms of learning and brain development and our relational development. So that was one reason.

Another reason is that while most believe—I don’t know if this is still true because there have been so many studies showing what amazing learners babies are, but yet still I would say we tend to discount these early years. We tend to see babies in this very limited way. Maybe because they’re not talking yet, they don’t seem like full people we can interact with. We maybe don’t understand that they might not want to be in somebody else’s arms, so we don’t bother to let them know or ask them and get a vibe from them whether that’s welcome or not. We maybe talk down to them. We don’t treat them as whole people so much. And yet what Magda believed, and studies confirm, this is actually a time we should want to be extra-careful, because they can’t express themselves. They can’t share nuances about what they’re feeling or their needs. So this is a time, in Magda’s view, and I’ve come to agree with this, to be more careful in what we’re doing with babies. How we’re engaging with them, how we’re treating them, because they can’t express themselves verbally. That’s why she was especially interested in all the things that are going on with babies in the first two years.

So, because it’s foundational and because they can’t tell us, we want to give them extra respect instead of less respect. And that’s why she talks about welcoming a baby as an honored guest when they’re born, not just a cute little thing that’s maybe a little empty-headed in the way that we see them. I mean, I definitely did that. Some people are naturally able to see into a baby and see the person there right away, but I was not able to in the beginning. Now that I do, I can’t stop seeing that with every baby. It’s like once you open this door, you never want to leave and maybe you can’t leave, if you wanted to.

That’s why there’s often this confusion around why this approach is focused on the first two years and what we’re supposed to do later. But I do understand that, just as everything looks different as our children grow, the way that we’re engaging with them looks different. And that’s why in this podcast, I do love to answer questions about children that are up to eight or nine years old. I don’t often go beyond that, because my basis of experience for those years is personal. But what I thought I would do in this podcast is share how I’ve continued to interpret Magda Gerber’s approach and how it has served me beautifully as a parent. I mean, I am not always beautiful as a parent, but this approach has served me that way.

Let’s talk about some of the major points that continue as our children get older and how they look. I mean, all of this continues as children get older, but how it looks.

First: keeping faith in our kids’ competency. One of the amazing lessons in this approach is that babies are born, yes, very dependent on us, and that’s good. It should be that way, right? That’s how we’re going to begin our attachment with them. And there’s so much that they can’t do. But even at birth, they have competencies. And the interesting thing about perceiving our children as competent right from the very beginning is not only is seeing believing, but believing is seeing in this case. So if we believe that our baby can learn how to communicate with us, we will see that this actually is true, because we will act on that belief, meaning we’ll try to include our baby in communication with us.

We realize that babies also have thoughts and interests that aren’t just about us. I remember years ago someone commenting on one of my posts saying, “Well, if a baby is away from you, if they’re out of your arms, they are just waiting to be in your arms again.” Basically, they’re putting life on hold. And first of all, it implies such a limited view of babies, that they couldn’t possibly have an independent thought or interest. Those of us that observe babies know that that’s not true. But if we don’t believe it, we probably won’t see it. We won’t see that the baby is actually quite content, sometimes, in their playpen or safe crib or on the floor as they get older. And they’ve got a lot to do, they’ve got a lot to see, they’ve got a lot to take in. When we see this limited view, we become very self-centered in the way that we’re considering babies, right? It’s all about us, adding so much more pressure to an already challenging job.

When we do begin this—and none of these things I’m going to say can’t be picked up on later in life. That’s the whole point of this podcast episode, is to show you how you can pick this up later in life if you want to, it doesn’t have to be when they’re babies. But when we start it when they’re babies, it becomes so much easier for us because we’re already into the seeing is believing, believing is seeing. We’ve believed and we’ve seen, and that just builds on itself. Wow, my baby can do this. They learned to roll over to their tummy all by themselves. We saw them trying, we saw them working on it, we saw them using their body freely, doing all these interesting intermediate positions. They can do that. And then from there, they can scoot, they can crawl, they can walk. They’re communicating with us. They’re practicing cognitive skills. They’re building higher learning skills like focus, attention, and critical thinking. Wow. Why would we get in the way of that if we saw it, right?

So this is never about abandoning a child or forcing independence. I mean, forcing independence is not possible anyway, right? Because independence isn’t a specific action someone else can teach you. It’s a feeling that you have. It’s something you want to taste, even as a baby. You want to have moments where you get to decide what to look at, what to touch. And the sense of agency that this builds is very powerful for children and carries them through adulthood. What we can do is honor independence, make room for it, notice it, and know that that’s such a positive aspect of our children’s development.

Also, it’s not only that children develop self-confidence and a sense of agency, this I can do it feeling deep within them. But this is also such a healthy relationship dynamic, right? That I trust you in all these areas. You know better than I do what you’re working on. You know better than I do what interests you. So why would I get in the way of that? And when we start opening ourselves up to that, we realize that children of all ages, not just the older ones but the little ones as well, they know what they’re doing. If we could stay out of their way in these areas of development and just create the environment that allows them to practice whatever they’re practicing. Not indicate to them, either overtly or subtly, that Really what you’re doing isn’t important, you need to be doing this right now. Because this is what I’m worried about you not getting, or this is what I was told you need to learn at this age or whatever.

And this can carry through with walking, talking, the way toys work, climbing, toilet learning, reading, homework. Eventually applying to college, choosing partners, choosing jobs, and navigating workplaces and relationships. Through all these autonomous struggles and accomplishments, our trust in our children’s abilities keeps growing, along with their self-confidence.

Alternatively, if we don’t truly believe that our kids are capable of handling their developmentally-appropriate tasks without our assistance—we’re not talking about putting children in a situation that’s traumatic, these are developmentally-appropriate tasks—I mean, if they ask for our assistance, we’re going to find a way to give it to them, right? Assistance, which doesn’t mean doing it for them. If they’re not asking, let them explore it. That’s the best possible thing they could do. But if we’re worried that they’re going to be crushed if they get too frustrated or if they make a mistake or get disappointed or, God forbid, they fail, then we can perpetuate this cycle of dependency. That, again, puts so much pressure on us and creates less security in our child, less self-confidence. The feeling that they need us for all these things that they really don’t, but we both got caught up in it that way.

If you do find yourself caught up in a situation where your child seems to need you to do all these tasks for them, then just try backing off. Not all the way maybe, but a little bit. If your child thinks they need you to sit there right with them while they’re doing their homework and show them how to do it, then just back off a little at first. I’m going to stay here with you the whole time, but instead of giving you the answers—and I’m not saying to say all this out loud, but this is the way to maybe approach it—instead of me giving you the answers, I’m going to ask more questions to help you find the answer.

I remember when my son was I think 10, and he had to make a book report and he had to draw a picture for the cover of the book report of this dog that was a big part of the story. And he said, “I don’t know how to draw a dog. I can’t do it.” And I thought, Uh-oh, yeah, that is a lot. That is kind of intimidating, for sure. But instead of starting to draw it for him—which believe me, I have that impulse. I have all the impulses everybody else has, but I’ve learned to kind of let them go and trust. So instead of taking that on for him, I just asked him questions, like “Is there a part of the dog’s body that you could draw first? What do you feel like you can draw?” And he said, “The nose.” So I said, “Okay, why don’t you try drawing the nose?” He drew the nose and then I said, “Okay, what next? What else could you draw?” “The ears. The eyes.” And it went like that, and he drew this really cool dog. I mean, it wasn’t a perfect dog, but it was perfect for him, at that time, to be able to do that.

I’ve learned, starting at the beginning with my kids as babies, that we want to help. But true help really means doing less, so that our child not only does the task, but learns that they can do it themselves. We want both of those types of learning to happen at the same time, ideally, as much as possible. Not only did you draw a dog, but you can draw. And he wouldn’t have had that part if I’d drawn the dog. He wouldn’t have had either one of those, actually. So this dynamic, keeping faith in our kids’ competency, continues.

There’s a really common thing that we can get caught up in with teenagers, which is we have to nag kids to do homework. And we can put an end to that cycle by stepping back, letting go, and having faith in our child to cope with these age-appropriate situations. And in the case of homework, encouraging our child, if they’re struggling with that, to bring that to their teacher. Because teachers love that too, right? Staying out of parts of parenting that are not really our job, that need to be our child’s job. Developing these skills is one of them.

Along with that is the second point I want to make: encouraging that inner-directedness, that process orientation, and the sense of self that that builds—the communion with self. When children are drawn to enrichment—if we are privileged to be able to give our child enrichment beyond school, in terms of hobbies or sports, if we can make that happen—what I’ve learned through this approach is to let that belong to our child. To let it be totally our child’s idea, if possible. Maybe they were exposed to it, they went to go watch their friend play a soccer game and now they want to do it. Never starting to lead that ourselves. Because once we put ourselves in the position of leading that, we can create a dynamic where our child feels like now they’re doing it for us. Maybe they’re now realizing they’re more interested in something else, but now they’re stuck with this because we feel like they need to finish everything they’ve started.

I don’t agree with that. If we have a child that keeps stopping things they’ve started, I would actually look at who’s really starting those activities and if it really is our child. Because oftentimes we think we’re suggesting things to our child, like, “Why don’t you do gymnastics?” And our countenance is telling them, My parent thinks I should want to do this. Really trying to prioritize letting our child lead these activities, because this is this precious bell inside them of their calling, of their interests, of all the things they’re going to end up doing in life as they get older. And doing with full commitment, because they’re their choice, right? It’s not going to be full commitment if it’s our choice or our suggestion, even. Wanting them to feel that full commitment. And trusting that some children don’t want to do anything after school, it’s exhausting. That’s perfectly okay too, and maybe there are things that they’re doing that are just as valid as going to take a class somewhere.

This looks, as children are older, like they’re choosing their subjects in high school, their electives that they want to take. I remember doubting when one of my kids said they didn’t want to continue with French and they’d done so well in French. I might’ve raised an eyebrow, but I let that go and I trusted and it was the best thing and perfectly fine for my child to do that. He’s a college graduate now and successful at a job already. They know better than we do. And even if we think they don’t know better than we do, allowing them to know better than we do will teach them so many more important things than that they should take French. That belief in: I can do my life, with my parent’s unconditional relationship and support.

And children benefit so much from downtime, what’s known as downtime, which is just they don’t want to do all those lessons that their friends are doing or the other parents are telling us we should do. They actually learn better because they have more time to digest and integrate and assimilate what they’ve been exposed to. And that’s the real brain-building part of experiences.

The other week I talked about praise and being careful not to overpraise, so that children can continue to be self-rewarded as much as possible. Yes, our communities and societies do give rewards, and that’s okay. It’s more important that our relationship with them is unconditional and trusting. They can get all those glossy things other places, but it’s not what our relationship is based on.

The third thing: accepting children’s feelings without judging or rushing them. What I talk about here all the time, because it is so integral to their emotional health, to being able to set boundaries—which I’m also going to talk about today—and really for them to flourish in life: Letting them express all those intense feelings. If they’re expressing them through behavior that might be aggressive behavior or unsafe behavior or even just annoying behavior to us, then all the more we want to encourage them to share those feelings another way. Not by saying, “Don’t do that, do this,” but saying, “It seems like you’re feeling this,” or “Is this what’s going on with you? Because you keep yelling at me.” Or, “Are you worried about something?” In that open, intimate way that we want to talk to our children. Not judgmental. Noticing the feelings beyond the behaviors.

Now, there are lots of ways that we can discourage feelings or diminish them that are far more subtle and loving, even. So we might want to keep our antenna up for those as children get older. Because of course, we never want to see our children hurt or upset in the least. We might say, “Look at all the things you have to be grateful for. It’s going to be fine.” Or, “Ah, they didn’t deserve you anyway.” There were so many times I wanted to say that about a problem with a friend or other relationship. “Oh, they just don’t get you.” No. Just allow the feelings. For me, it’s been about practicing zipping it. I mean, that sounds terrible, but just wait and let them keep going.

Because my urge to say something is often an urge to try to make them feel better or stop, and that doesn’t make them feel better or stop. What makes them feel better is to express it all, the whole way. Because it’s not our power to make our children feel a certain way, unfortunately, or anyone else for that matter.

And I will say that one of the reasons I talk about this so much in my podcast is that resisting the urge to calm feelings never really gets easier, at all. And our kids are going to get their feelings hurt a lot in life. They’re going to get rejected by friends, they’re not going to make the A-team, they’re going to lose the debate, they’re going to do poorly on the test, get their hearts broken. And all of this is life. As Magda always said, If we can learn to struggle, we can learn to live. And that learning to struggle is lifelong learning. And just acknowledging, “Ah, that was hurtful,” or that was whatever our child said it was. So children receive this healthiest message that whatever their moods, their darkest moods, their harshest feelings, even towards us, are safe for them to feel. Will be heard, accepted, hopefully understood by us, if possible.

This is really the biggest secret I know of to fostering a close lifelong bond with our kids. Not just accepting them and believing in them with skill development, but accepting and believing in them when they are at their absolute lowest.

And four, just in case you thought this was about letting kids do whatever they want: remember that the basis for all the healthy freedom that I’m talking about giving children is: boundaries. This could have been the very first point that I made, because none of the rest of this will flourish if children don’t feel safe in our confident, empathic leadership. Making those hard choices sometimes that are going to upset them, but we love them too much to not put ourselves on the line like that. We love them and ourselves too much to not confront it. I mean, I don’t want to confront things unless I absolutely have to, but I learned that this is real love. Real love isn’t just saying, “Okay, whatever, I don’t care.” That’s saying I don’t care. And we don’t mean it that way. We just mean, I can’t deal with another boundary right now. And I understand that, I’ve felt that many times. And maybe we can’t right then. But knowing that even though our children won’t tell us they love us so much when we state boundaries or hold boundaries for them, that’s how they feel.

What I’ve seen over the years is that the children know that. And the children that don’t have that, that seem like they’re so free to do whatever they want and the parent just accepts them, they will seek boundaries somewhere else usually, not necessarily in safe ways. Because it’s not a comfortable feeling when you’re a child—or a teenager, going through all the changes teenagers go through—that you’re in charge of your whole life. Yes, you want to be in charge of your skills and your learning and your free time, as long as it’s safe and reasonable, but not in charge of how you treat people or in charge of how you act on your moods or hurt yourself or hurt people. If we feel in charge of those things, we do not feel the slightest bit safe or loved or able to blossom.

Our boundaries are very often the dynamic that children need between us to be able to share their moods and feelings. So we want to keep practicing reasonable boundaries, sticking up for ourselves, while welcoming our children to disagree in whatever way that they do, as long as it’s not hurting us. And that’s the hardest part, right? Meaning they have a right to feel however they feel about our boundaries. It’s not, “You get what you get and you don’t get upset.” A parent shared with me that a teacher was saying that to her child. And no, that’s called stuffing our feelings. It’s that you’ve got a right to how you feel, and we’re reminding ourselves constantly, maybe, that them putting it out there is healthy and good. Much better for our child, and our relationship with them, than for them to hold it in.

As Susan David wisely shares—you know I always quote her here, I’m a big fan of her work, it’s very much in line with everything I believe. She says, “Research on emotional expression shows that when emotions are pushed aside or ignored, they get stronger. Psychologists call this amplification.” She also says, “When we push aside normal emotions to embrace false positivity, we lose our capacity to develop skills to deal with the world as it is, not as we wish it to be.” And I believe she’s referring mostly to adults here, but all of this applies to children. Because we continue to have the same basic needs from birth until death: the need to have boundaries and know our place in the world, to express ourselves fully, the need to be in communion with ourselves, to be inner-directed, the need to feel capable that we can achieve things when we put the effort in, with lots of ups and downs in the process.

One more point, point five: connecting during caregiving. You hear me talk about that with babies and toddlers and maybe preschoolers, but this is a way to keep nurturing our connection with children throughout their life. And it does look a little different as children get older. Mealtimes is the obvious one, sitting down to a meal without having our devices out, having that time together. Sherry Turkle, who’s the author of Reclaiming Conversation and has done a lot of research on this topic of technology interfering with children’s development of empathy and our ability to connect with each other, she has some great ideas for helping us as a family to limit tech use at times like that. But she also said, I really love this, she said: you can have it be certain rooms, i.e., We’re never going to have tech devices in the kitchen or in the dining room. I didn’t do that with my family, but I thought it was a great idea.

So, mealtimes, bedtime rituals. One of my kids wanted me to lie there with them while they fell asleep, even up to the age of, I think it was 10. And you know what? I was available. We don’t have to do that, but I did it. Only one out of three wanted that. But I’m glad I did it, in retrospect. I’m not saying everyone should do that, but there are some things you can do. Read books, sing songs (until they begged me to stop), of course, we did that for years too. Have those goodnight rituals that are special between you.

Then so many things can be caregiving: Band-aids. Medicine. When kids ask for help with homework or studying for a test, I consider that caregiving, even though I know it’s also skill-building for them and everything. But when my children would ask for help studying for a test, I would leap on that, because I could. If I couldn’t, I wouldn’t. But as kids get older, there aren’t that many opportunities, like there are when they’re little, to connect in that way. And caregiving in all these realms is one of the main ways.

Seizing on those bedtime rituals, seizing on the mealtimes, help with studying for a test, and we used to laugh a lot. I’d be completely focused at those times, I would not have a tech device anywhere near me. Just with them. Shopping for clothes or whatever they need. You want me to go with you? I’m there. It’s an excuse to be with your child as you get older, as they get older and you get older. Helping them with combing and brushing their hair, hairstyles, detangling, make-up for the prom. Taking kids to the doctor or for a haircut. My kids are adults now and they want to go to the dentist with me. Yes! I’m there, I’m right there. And we’ll go get something to eat afterwards and mess our teeth up again. But it’s the best. It keeps that flame alive between us.

And then just simple things, like when my kids come into the house or I’m meeting them somewhere, I drop everything. I’m up, I’m going in for a hug, excited to see them. Those transitions, those transitional times, remain sensitive times for all of us. You’ve heard me talk a lot about how difficult transitional periods can be for young children or even just getting up and getting dressed and getting to school in the morning. Keep helping your child. Yes, they can dress themselves, but if they want a helping hand, they just want moral support while they’re doing it, we can try to be there. And if we can’t, not giving them a judgmental response, “You can do that yourself.” But just, “You wanted me there and I can’t. But next time.”

Because what children can do and what they want to do, what their real need is—which might be connection with us before they leave for the day—are two different things. So when we can, prioritize those activities. The same when I’m parting with my children, I try to jump up. And I mean, I always saw them off to school and everything, but my son’s living at home now, and I try to wake up and make sure I say goodbye to him before he goes off to work. And hello to him when he comes in the door. I stand up, I’m so excited. Basically, any excuse. That’s how it gets.

I know it feels overwhelming now, that you’re doing all this stuff and everybody needs you so much. And mommy, mommy or daddy, daddy, and you could barely take a free breath. Well, I’m not saying you should be happy because you’re not going to have that later and that you should feel bad about the times that you’ve missed. Absolutely not. However, just know that as you grow, you’re going to find these connection points still and find these areas to trust your child. And all of that is going to bring you so many surprises and delight, laughter and amazement, really, at how capable your children are.

And if you want to get on this track and you’re not quite there, you agree with some of it, you don’t agree with other parts of it—that’s okay. You can always step into trust, step into connection. Those are always available to us, and our children want those more than anything from us. So, it’s a win-win.

Now, for those of you who would still like to check out resources that are compatible with what I teach, but for older children, the first thing I usually ask people if I get a chance to respond to them is, what topics are you concerned about? Because that will help me to guide them. I do have a whole list of books that I recommend, that are in my books and recommendations section of my website, janetlansbury.com. There are books covering a variety of topics, and many of them pertain to older children. Also, many of these authors have been on this podcast. So, check out all my other podcasts, and I hope you find the help that you’re looking for.

And by the way, Mother’s Day is coming up, and I’ve got a great gift idea for you: my No Bad Kids Master Course. You can learn all about it at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

The post As Our Kids Get Older – 5 Ways to Continue Building Lasting Emotional Bonds appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Dr. Gabor Maté on Why Parents Matter More Than Ever”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

For most of you out there, I’m guessing that my guest today needs no introduction. Dr. Gabor Maté is a family physician, renowned speaker, with a special interest in childhood development, trauma, and addiction. He’s authored five books, including the classic he co-authored with early childhood icon psychologist Dr. Gordon Neufeld. The book is Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers. And Doctors Neufeld and Maté are reissuing it with a brand new chapter called In the Wake of the Pandemic: Peer Orientation and the Youth Mental Health Crisis. I’m seriously looking forward to discussing the invaluable messages in this book, and more, with Dr. Gabor Maté.

Hi, and welcome to you, Dr. Maté. I’m an enormous fan of yours and it’s really an honor to be able to spend this time with you. Thank you very much for being here.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thanks for having me. I’m sorry that due to technical issues, the main author of the book Hold On to Your Kids, Dr. Gordon Neufeld, can’t be with us. But since I wrote the book with him and have worked with him for decades, I think I can channel his wisdom here, as best I can. But listeners should keep in mind that it’s his work mostly that we’re talking about here.

Janet Lansbury: I believe in you as a channel for his work, and you have amazing work you’ve done on your own as well. And this book, well now you’re reissuing it because you’ve added a new chapter all about the effects of the pandemic. Which I found surprising, your take on it, because it’s very different from the take that we’re hearing from many about it. So I really hope that you’ll speak to that today. But this whole book, it’s really a unique perspective, and remains a unique perspective, even though it was first written back in, what was it, 2008, something like that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: I think even before then. I think it’s probably 2005 or 2004, something like that.

Janet Lansbury: You’ve also added some chapters about the digital explosion that’s happened and how that affects this issue. I’m going to let you speak about the issues that this book covers and brings to light for people. It was something that I hadn’t considered before reading this. I’ve known the importance of having a relationship-centered approach to parenting, that that’s what it’s all about. That attachment is everything, that it’s key to the way that children learn, the way that they live and become who we want them to be or who they’re supposed to be. And that attachment nest needs to be present. But what your book with Dr. Neufeld talks about is that, actually, this is even more important than we thought because there’s competition. There’s this powerful draw of peer orientation. Can you talk a little about that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, we have to consider human evolution. And from the evolutionary perspective, mammals, hominids and hominins, humanoid creatures lived in small-band groups, where the children were around the adults all the time, 24/7, from birth to adulthood. And even with our own species, we’ve been on the earth for about 150,000 years, that’s the way we lived until the blink of an eye ago. So for 95% of our existence as human species, children lived around their parents all the time.

It’s like a duckling. A duckling is born, hatches from the egg, looks at the mother duck and imprints on the mother duck, and then follows the mother duck. Not because the mother duck asserts authority or threatens them or anything, just that nature causes us to be attached to our caregivers and to follow their guidance. And that’s the way it’s been for a long time.

Now, in more recent times, kids spend most of their time away from their parents from a very early age on. In the United States, 25% of women have to go back to work within two weeks of giving birth, which basically means that children are deprived of the natural presence of their nature-intended caregivers.

The duckling, if it hatches with the mother duck absent, will still imprint on anything that moves. And that could be a dog or horse or mechanical moving toy, but none of which are designed by nature to bring that duckling up to adulthood.

Our children, spending most of their time away from us, imprint on who they spend most of their time with. Their brain is programmed to imprint and to attach, but nothing in nature tells the brain who to attach to. That’s the job of the culture. So when you have a culture in which kids spend most of their time away from the nurturing adults, they imprint on whoever’s around, they can’t help it. They’re not doing it, their brains are doing it.

That means our kids are now imprinting and attaching to, and therefore getting their orientation from, immature peers. Attachment is like a magnet. It’s got two poles. One pole attracts, but the other pole repels. So when you’re attracted here, you’re pushing away from there. So when kids get attracted to and orienting by and attached to their peer group, they start pushing away from the adult. And now we think they have a problem, there’s something wrong with them, and we ratchet up the authoritarian parenting, all the punishments, the timeouts, all this stuff, which further drives them away from us.

And so what we’ve got here in our society, to make a long story short, is a culturally built-in, normalized, absolutely abnormal situation, where kids are getting most of their influence from their immature peers rather than the nurturing adults. And this results in behavior problems, learning difficulties, a lot of what we call pathologies (which are not pathologies at all, they’re manifestations of abnormalities in the environment), difficulties parenting, frustration on the part of parents, all kinds of other consequences which you can talk about. But in a nutshell, it has to do with the loss of primary attachments to the nourishing adults and the replacement—gradually, but insidiously—by the peer group.

Janet Lansbury: When does this begin? When children are three years old, four years old?

Dr. Gabor Maté: For those kids whose mothers have to go back to work at two weeks, that’s when it starts. Because then where do they go to? They go to poorly-funded, very often, and poorly-staffed daycare centers where there’s not enough adults to really connect with each child. Furthermore, we have this idea in this society that somehow we have to socialize kids. They spent the whole week in daycare and then, at let’s say age three or four, we arrange playdates for them on the weekend where they can be with each other even more.

And so I’m just telling you that so many of the problems that parents are having with their kids, there’s nothing because something’s wrong with the kids or particularly something wrong with the parents either. But because in this culture, the loss of parental attachment has been normalized and even encouraged. And there’s this invisible competition that we’re actually taught to court and to encourage.

Janet Lansbury: So what does healthy socialization look like? I mean, when you say that we’re supposed to socialize, I never consider it that way. I consider that children are naturally socialized. It’s not something that we have to try to make happen for them.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s the whole point. Your assumption is quite right. Socialization does happen naturally. But we can over-encourage it, because we forget or we don’t know that child development goes through phases. It’s like a pyramid. And the base and the broadest grounding for that pyramid is attachment to the nurturing adults. And that has to be maintained. These are not phases that we go through, this is a pyramid that we build. And attachment is the basis of it.

The second basis of it is not socialization. The second tier in the pyramid is actually individuation, which means the child develops a deep, entrusting sense of themselves. Now for that, attachment has to be secure. When children develop a sense of themselves, they can then respect the individuality of others and hold on to themselves without having to fit in, without having to mold themselves to the expectations of the group. But if they don’t have a strong sense of themselves, individuation, then they’ll try and fit in with the group rather than being themselves. Then we can see where that leads to. You know what the extreme of that is: gang behavior.

Then the third tier, as Gordon points out, is socialization. So socialization is like the peak of the pyramid. In a healthy sense, it’s based on strong attachments, proper individuation, and then socialization happens spontaneously. We don’t have to make it happen. But we do have to respect the pyramid. And so when we try and push kids into socialization too early, before they’ve individuated, then we’re actually asking for them to just meld in with the peer group.

Janet Lansbury: When parents have asked me, How do I do this? I need to socialize my child. And I point out—because my mentor, who happens to be Hungarian, Magda Gerber, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of her, but she used to say, you’re socializing your child with everything you do in your relationship. That’s how they’re learning social behaviors, through you. You don’t have to put them in a group setting. Group socialization is a whole different thing. They’re learning this through your relationship.

Dr. Gabor Maté: As a matter of fact, this is counterintuitive perhaps, and we’re not here advocating homeschooling, that’s not something everybody just can do, for all kinds of reasons. But if you look at the research, kids who are homeschooled, they socialize better later on. Why? Because they have a stronger, more independent sense of themselves. And now they can respect individuality of others and hold on to their own.

Janet Lansbury: If parents are in the position where they do need to have their child be in childcare, then ideally we want them to be able to attach—hopefully not as their primary attachment, hopefully that still remains the parent, right? That’s what we want. But they need to form a secondary attachment with those adults caring for them, so that they have somebody that’s an adult to be attached to instead of prioritizing the other children to be attached to.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah, we’re not saying kids shouldn’t be in daycare. That would not be realistic. A lot of parents, for economic and other reasons, simply have to send their kids to daycare. The question is to recognize what we’ve lost and how to supplant it, okay? So if the kid goes to daycare, the first point is: what the child’s brain cannot handle is competing primary attachments. The child can handle many attachments, but not competing primary attachments. By the way, that’s true of the human brain in general. It’s very difficult even for adults, for example, to be in love with two people at the same time. Eventually the brain goes this way or that way, but it can’t hold on to both.

Now, the child’s brain, being very immature, is absolutely incapable of handling competing primary attachments. So when the child goes to daycare, the parent needs to encourage the child’s attachment to the daycare provider because that doesn’t compete with the parent, but the peer attachment does. So we have to have healthy adult attachments if the child is not going to be with the parent. It’s like Gordon says: in the morning, the parent hands the attachment baton to the teacher or the daycare worker, and in the evening, we take it back. That’s the first point. When kids go to daycare, parents should hang out in that daycare for a few weeks and make sure that their child sees them, the parent, forming relationships with the daycare provider. So that the child then sees, Oh, okay, I can be attached to both of these people. That’s the first thing.

The second thing is, we have to understand how children attach. And the more immature we are, the more primitive—and I don’t mean that in a negative sense—but the more basic our attachment styles are. So the first way that children attach is physically. To the senses, by seeing, hearing, touching, smelling the attachment figure. Smell, by the way, is huge. It’s one of the first things that develops. Babies can distinguish the smell of their own mother’s breast pad from that of other mothers within a few weeks of birth. So the senses are very important to children.

And other forms of attachment, such as being loyal or being important, holding somebody else in your heart, those develop later. You might have friends that you might not see for two years, but you still love them, you can hold on to them. Children can’t do that. Young children, they have to see you, hear you, touch you. Now, what does that mean? If they haven’t seen you the whole day, that attachment relationship has been attenuated. You have to regain it. So when your kid comes home from daycare at whatever age, hang out with them. Not for the purpose of telling them what to do or watching television together or anything, but just for the purpose of reestablishing the attachment relationship.

So in the first place, kids go to daycare: form attachment relationships with the nurturing adults. And most daycare workers need to be trained or understand the importance of attachment. They’re not just physical caregivers providing food and supervision. They need to be attachment figures, number one. Number two, at the end of the day, you have to reconnect, reattach with your kids. Especially the younger kids, but any kids, at any age. So we can deal with the daycare, not by going back to some ideal time when kids are with their parents the whole day, that’s no longer available to most of us. But we can understand attachment and then we’ll follow the guidelines of attachment to make sure that the kids being away from us the whole day doesn’t undermine our relationship with them.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, I love these points that you and Dr. Neufeld made in the book about the four ways to nurture attachment. The first one is when they’re infants, when children are very little, you call it “being in their face.” It’s having that face-to-face. And then that becomes “collecting.” I really like that word to describe it. I mean, I’ve seen all these memes and things saying, children want us to light up when they come into the room. Well, there is something to that. When we’re returning to each other, we want to drop everything. It’s so important that we’re not texting in the car or whatever. We’re present, we’re there. I collect you. You’re somebody big to me. You’re important.

Dr. Gabor Maté: You would do that with a lover, wouldn’t you? You do that automatically. We do it automatically with babies, too. I mean, even strangers. I’ve been on many airplanes where there might be a little baby there in somebody’s arms and the baby cries a little bit. Everybody goes, Aww. We just all naturally attune with the baby. That’s just natural. Babies evoke that attunement/connection instinct in us. The problem is that with the separation from our kids, that instinct inside ourselves is actually softened, weakened. So we actually get alienated from our own parenting instinct.

When some parenting “expert” comes along and tells you to practice timeout against a two-year-old, basically they’re saying to you, Use the attachment relationship to punish the child. The child’s biggest need is that you should be delighted and welcoming and unconditionally accepting. And when you use a timeout technique, you say to the child, I know what your biggest fear is: the loss of that relationship. And I’m going to deprive you of the relationship for a certain period of time. Now, to a two-year-old, five minutes is forever. And so that, not only does the culture normalize alienation of children from parents, it even teaches parents to use the child’s biggest need—for your delight in them and acceptance of them, an unconditional connection with them—against the child, to try and control the child. Which creates tremendous insecurity in children. It makes them conform to your desires perhaps, but what does it do to the child’s development?

We have to collect them, which means gather them in under our wing again. And Gordon says, collect them before you direct them.

Janet Lansbury: It does become less organic as children get older and we think, Oh, they’re fine, or They don’t care, or we’re busy or whatever. And how important that still is with a teenager, with a child at any age. I have three adult children, I still stand up—whatever I’m doing—if they walk in the door. It’s like a huge thing to me, run and hug and so excited. I naturally feel that way. But I think we can get caught up in our work and our lives and forget, especially when children maybe are already gone into more of that peer orientation space and then they don’t seem like they care. But they do, right? They really do.

And what can we look for, then, with our younger children? What are some of the warning signs that, Uh-oh, there could be something going on here? I mean, when you talk about the behaviors that children have when they do have that peer orientation, the behaviors that they have toward the parents, what do those look like with young children?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, let me just say that even teenagers need this. Not just even, but especially. Because it’s such a difficult time. They need orientation. And in traditional cultures that orientation was provided by adults and elders.

One of my sons and I are writing a new book together. I mean, we’re just beginning to write it, so I’m not advertising anything here. But it’s going to be called Hello Again: A Fresh Start for Parents and Adult Children. It’s based on a workshop that we do. And all the adults that we speak to, adults in their thirties, forties who still want contact with their parents. They may not want the contact that they have, which is often very troubled, but they want genuine contacts. Never-mind infants, even adults are still looking for that.

So what are the signs when kids are getting alienated from us? Well, first of all, they want to be with each other all the time rather than with us, number one. Number two, with the technology that we’ve very unwisely put into their immature hands, they’re connecting with each other all the time. They will not be soothed by us when they’re upset. They will be more oppositional and resistant to our expectations.

Janet Lansbury: And that part could show up with a child as young as three or four. There’s part of that that naturally happens anyway, but then it can become more of a warning sign if a child is consistently having “behavior issues.” But it’s always a relationship issue when children are having concerning behaviors, it’s usually a relationship issue between us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah. In our society, more and more kids are being diagnosed with this, that, and the other. And many kids are being medicated to control their behaviors, which is a vast social experiment in the manipulation of the child’s biology and the indication is that it’s not particularly good for the child’s brain development. In fact, on the contrary, in many cases. What we’re actually looking at is we identify pathologies in a child, but actually there’s no pathology in a child. What there is is a response in the child to the environment, and particularly to the loss of attachment.

So there’s a so-called diagnosis called oppositional defiant disorder. I say “so-called” because not only does it not exist in reality, not even in theory can it exist. Now, it describes something. So in that sense, it refers to something real. But to say that ODD, that a child has it, is to imply that the child has some kind of a disorder. But let’s just look at it for a minute. Oppositionality by definition is relational. Can you oppose somebody if you’re not in relationship with them? When I talk about this, I say to my listeners, if you don’t understand what I’m saying, lock yourself in a room by yourself, make sure you’re alone, lock the door, and oppose somebody. And if you manage to do it, please put it on YouTube because we want to see what it looks like. So oppositionality by definition implies a relationship. In which case, why are we diagnosing the child rather than looking at the relationship, number one.

Number two, I mentioned individuation, the necessity for us to become individual beings in our own right. That’s nature’s agenda. Why? Because the parents are going to die. And nature’s agenda is that by the time the parents pass, the child has become their own adult person, individuated, knowing themselves. That’s just nature’s agenda for any species.

At age one-and-a-half, the child starts saying no. What do we call that? We call that the terrible twos. Why do we call it the terrible twos? Because we don’t understand there’s nothing terrible about it. What’s actually going on is the child is developing their own will, and in order to develop their own will, as Gordon points out, they have to put up a little fence against the overwhelming and overbearing will of the parent. And that’s that no that they start saying. If you don’t know how to say no, your yeses don’t mean anything at all. So there’s nothing inherently oppositional about it, it’s just that—Gordon calls it counterwill. Counterwill is just countering the will of another so that you can develop your own.

Now, we can manage that easy enough if the attachment relationship is strong. But if we mistake it for a problem, then what we do is when a child expresses their counterwill, their nature-built drive for independence, we push on them even harder. It’s in the nature of counterwill that the more you push on it, the stronger it becomes.

So who are these kids with the so-called oppositional defiant disorders? Number one, they’re kids who have lost the primary healthy attachment with adults. Now, if you’ve lost a relationship with somebody, you’re not going to heed them. You’re not going to listen to them or allow yourself to be guided by them, because orientation follows attachment. We follow, orient by, those people that we trust and are connected to. If, because of all the multiple pressures in our society, which is not the fault of individual parents, children’s relationships to parents have been attenuated, weakened, then their oppositionality increases naturally, number one. Number two, the more we push on it, the more confirmed and out-of-hand it becomes.

So who are these ODD kids? Kids who have lost their relationship with the parents and who’ve been pushed on too much. And then we say they’ve got some kind of pathology. No, they don’t. What we have to do is to go back to basics and rebuild that relationship with them. Trust me, that oppositionality will melt like snow on a warm day. We’ve seen this over and over again. But unfortunately the tendency in our society is to pathologize children’s behavior, rather than to see its sources and its remedies in the attachment relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

And then the second point that you make about maintaining that attachment is giving children something to hold on to. In the beginning, that’s a body part, that’s very physical, but it soon becomes emotional as well. And just that feeling of, There’s this person that sees me, knows me so well, is always in my corner, and somebody loves me. And I can go out in the world and deal with some of the challenges, knowing that I have this person to go back to, that sees me better than anyone else.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Even in adult relationships, on separation, don’t we give one another little objects, little mementos? Those are something to hold on to. Children need that. So if the kid goes to daycare, give them a picture of yourself. Give them some cherished, not expensive obviously, but some cherished shared object that they can hold on to. So that’s what we’re talking about, is let them take a piece of you to the daycare or to the school.

Janet Lansbury: And then inviting them. The third one is inviting them to depend on us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah. Again, in this society there’s this belief that we have to push kids towards independence, but we don’t. I mean, a mother bear doesn’t have to push the cubs towards independence. At a certain point, it just happens. And the more secure the child is, the more independent they can become. If you look at these attachment experiments with little babies or little toddlers and so on, those kids that are more securely attached are the ones more likely to be able to play independently and then to come back to the mom or the parent when necessary. As Gordon says, to promote independence, invite dependence.

Janet Lansbury: Right.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That drive for independence is inherent in the child. At a certain point, the child developing in a healthy way will say, “I’m going to do it myself.” So you’re going to tie their shoelaces: “I’m going to do it myself.” That drive for mastery is inherent in a human being. It has to be. So we don’t have to promote it, we just have to provide the security so that it can unfold naturally.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And be that person that says, I mean, unless we can’t possibly do it at that moment, and then we say, “Well, I wish I could but I can’t right now.” But that welcomes them. To say, Oh, you want help with your shoes? You know how to do it, but so what? I’m going to help you with your shoes. Of course, I’m always here for you.

And yeah, I mean, the only thing I was thinking when I was reading that that I would maybe add is just that sometimes we have to honor independence when children do show it. Even as an infant, I want to look over here and notice this right now. That we consider honoring that instead of, Come look at me! I’m the only one here! So when a child does choose it—it’s never pushing a child that way, never. But it’s noticing those expressions of independence and honoring them, not stepping on them. Because one thing I really wanted to ask you—

Dr. Gabor Maté: Let me just quickly comment on that.

Janet Lansbury: Okay, yes!

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yes to what you just said. That’s called attunement. Attunement means being aware of and respectful of the internal experience of the other. At a certain point, the infant may have too much of you looking at them. They wish to look away. You let them. You don’t get anxious, Oh, come back, hey! You don’t try to inveigle them back into relationship with you at that moment, because their need at that point is that it’s become too intense for them and they need to just detach for a minute. If you’re attuned with them, and if you’re not anxious, you’ll allow that to happen. If you’re not attuned or if you’re bringing your own needs to bear, your need to connect with the child to dominate, then you’re not going to honor their experience.

So yes, you have to be attuned with the child, which means sometimes you have to let them look away and do their own thing. Usually it won’t last very long, but you need to give them the space to do that. So it begins very early. And very often parents hover too much in that sense. They should be attentive to the child and be there for the child. But hovering means that you’re bringing your own needs.

Janet Lansbury: And fears often, right?

Dr. Gabor Maté: Your own needs and your anxieties, rather than getting your cues from the child’s experience.

Janet Lansbury: I’m sure you’ve been asked this, you and Dr. Neufeld probably both, but how does your advice in this book stand with all of this research that’s come out about the over-parenting and the stifling of children, and how that’s linked to children who are depressed, anxious, have no sense of themselves, no individuation, I guess.

Dr. Gabor Maté: So for sure. It’s like I just said, it’s—

Janet Lansbury: Lack of attunement, right?

Dr. Gabor Maté: It needs to arise from the child’s needs, not from the parents’ anxieties. So a lot of that stuff has to do with the parents’ fears. We’ve got to take them to this class and that class and make sure they get into the right school. And if we don’t push them academically, they’re going to… In other words, it actually comes from the anxieties of the parent. And it also comes from the sense of the parent that they’ve lost a relationship with the child and they need to overcompensate. So as long as the relationship is healthy and well-attached, you can’t over-hover.

Let me tell you about a study that was done quite some years ago now. They looked at mothers and young children, I don’t know, about a hundred or 200 mothers. I quote the study in one of my books, not in this one. And some mothers, very few, were kind of distant and unavailable emotionally for the children as they interacted. Most mothers were good, they interacted, they played with the child. Some mothers were called supermoms. These supermoms cuddled the kid, extra loving, extra connection, and so on. Attuned, but very warm. Thirty years or more later, the kids most emotionally stable or the adults most emotionally stable, were the children of these supermoms. And what the researcher said is, you can’t love children too much. Now, loving them is not the same as hovering all the time and controlling them.

So the research doesn’t have to do with attachment, it has to do with control and intrusion. And yeah, if you control kids and intrude on them, you’re going to get negative results. But that’s got nothing to do with attachment. In fact, it’s a substitute for genuine attachment.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And do you also think it threatens the attachment relationship and could cause this peer orientation? That if a child feels like, they’re too controlling or they’re trying to mold me. I mean, I think sometimes parents feel like they’re supposed to judge their child, they’re supposed to keep on them. That that is what love is. That they’re supposed to mold, they’re supposed to be on them for everything and make it all happen. And there’s no trust in the child’s nature. And so naturally children can grow up to not trust their own nature, because their parent that they look to never trusted theirs.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Returning, I mentioned this book I’m writing, we do these workshops, my son and I, for adults and their parents. This is what we hear so often from parents. I wish I had left them alone. I wish I hadn’t tried to control them so much. They just needed me to be there for them and be there with them, not to try and direct them all the time. And the residues into adulthood are so negative. So we’re not trusting the child, we’re not trusting ourselves, we’re not trusting nature.

See, children who are connected to adults naturally want to learn from adults. We use this word discipline, but what does the word discipline actually mean? We think it means punishment. No, it doesn’t. Who had disciples? Jesus, for example, had disciples. Not because he punished or threatened them, but because he loved them and they loved him. So then naturally they wanted to learn from him.

So that’s one of the ways we attach, I mentioned the attachment physically. The next way to attach is actually by wanting to be the same as. So when children are well-attached to parents, they’ll copy what the parent does. I mean, look at all the teaching that that saves. There’s a lot of things we don’t have to teach our kids, they just learn it by watching us. Kids who are well-attached to parents will naturally want to emulate the parent, to be the same as the parent. Kids who are peer-attached want to be the same as their peers and behave like their peers and talk like their peers and look like their peers and wear the same shoes.

Janet Lansbury: And as you point out, these aren’t unconditionally loving peers. They can’t be, towards that child. And so the child is not getting the kind of attachment that they need.

Dr. Gabor Maté: No, but they’re getting the only one available to them. And the point is, these parents who think we have to guide and judge and control our kids. No, you don’t. You have to provide the warm attachment relationship. And then you set the guidelines, for which you don’t need to use force because the child who’s connected to you will naturally want to follow your guidelines. So you can back off on the coercive aspect.

There are limits. You’re not going to let a kid run across the street in order to find out for themselves how dangerous it is. You will not allow that to happen. If you live in New York, you’re not going to let your kid crawl out into the winter snow naked. I mean, parenting is a hierarchy, but it’s a benign, beneficial hierarchy.

The problem with peer orientation is it actually flattens the hierarchy. So when kids start looking to each other for guidance and validation, they start resisting the parents’ natural authority. As long as we have that natural authority, we don’t have to keep pushing our kids or cajoling them or judging them or controlling them. They will naturally, literally, fall into line. And by the way, this book has been out now for what, almost 30 years? Published in close to 40 languages. We get messages from all over the world that it changed their whole family dynamics and how they relate to their kids. And things are so much easier now and so much warmer now and so much effortless now. The stronger the attachment relationship, the less the effort you have to make.

Janet Lansbury: Because you’re prioritizing what really works. You’re putting your energy into what actually does help children with their behavior and every other thing that you’re trying to do, if you’re thinking about trying to mold them.

Dr. Gabor Maté: The problem is that by now, we’re talking 2024, by now, we’ve had several generations of parents who themselves were brought up peer-oriented. So to them this looks totally natural. They can’t even see the alternative, even though historically it’s an aberration. Evolutionarily, as I said earlier, it’s simply a blink of an eye. Not even that. And even historically, it’s just a few generations old. But it’s become so entrenched and so endemic in our culture that we take it for granted.

My most recent book is called The Myth of Normal. What I’m saying in general in that book, and I mention the peer orientation dynamic as well, is that things have become normalized in this culture that, from the human point of view, are neither healthy nor natural. And so peer orientation has become so normalized that most researchers don’t even realize it’s there. They just think it’s the way it needs to be. It’s unseen. It’s like a hidden epidemic that’s striking almost every family without people recognizing it. And we’re dealing with the effects of it, rather than dealing with the causes of it.

Janet Lansbury: So you’ve added on chapters about the digital age and then now this recent one about the effects of the pandemic with children. Could you talk a little about how parents can navigate the technology and screens and all of that with a very young child? If you have guidelines for that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, as a physician, I can tell you that the parts of the brain that are excited by the technology are the same parts of the brain excited by addictive drugs. The dopamine circuits, primarily. As a matter of fact, there’s a technology company called Dopamine Lab. The technology companies hire neuroscientists. I’m not making this up. They hire neuroscientists to target children’s brains in the most addictive fashion so they get hooked on the technology. And if you look at the research on brain scans of children who watch a lot of digital media, that interferes with the circuits of thinking and emotional connection and insight and creativity. So this is serious stuff.

Furthermore, I used to work with a highly addicted population here in Vancouver. One of my medical interests has been addiction. You take a child who’s hooked on technology and try and separate them from technology. You know what you’ve got? You’ve got an addict in withdrawal. The same rage, the same disdain, the same oppositionality, the same outrage, and the same obstreperous holding on to that object. This stuff is addictive.

If I was parenting kids today, I wouldn’t let them look at the screen for years. Certainly I would not let them look at a screen on their own for years. I would not give them a cell phone. I would not give them an iPad. If I watched television with them, I’d be choosing what they’re watching. But mostly I’d stay away from it. And I would stay away from texting and emailing in their presence.

Janet Lansbury: I was just going to ask about that, yes.

Dr. Gabor Maté: I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but believe me, I see it all the time. A parent is pushing a kid in a tram, a buggy, and their parent is on a cell phone. What message are we giving the kid when we’re absent in their presence? So it’s not that I would do without my computer or my cell phone, but I would not be letting them interrupt my relationship and interaction with the child.

And so it’s like everything else. There’s age-appropriate behaviors that are okay for one age, but not okay at another. I mean, it’s okay to have a glass of wine every once in a while, but nobody wants to give a glass of wine to a two-week-old. It’s not age-appropriate. Developmentally, it’s harmful. But there’s no rush. Even if they don’t see technology until age 10, which seems like a sacrilege in this society, they’ll learn it overnight. It’s not that they’re missing anything.

The problem is that parents are so busy and so stressed. Parents are desperate for a respite, and one way to get respite is to plunk the kid down in front of a TV set or to give them a cell phone. Now they’re going to be okay for hours, but at what cost? So while I understand the desire for the parents for a break and respite, and therefore using the technology as the babysitter, it comes at a great cost.

Janet Lansbury: I like that you pointed out that even pushing the pram when you’re not maybe facing the child or if the child’s on your back or front or whatever, that they can sense, because they sense everything about us, that you’re doing something else. Even when they can’t see our face. You know, that “still face” experiment always comes to mind when I think of us being on the phone with the baby there and suddenly we’re down a rabbit hole of something else that has nothing to do with them and how strange that is. But even not seeing our face, they sense that I’m not being collected by this person. I’m not in relationship with this person right now, in that moment.

And this is going to sound extreme to a lot of parents I think out there who have a lot of reasons for wanting the phones, but I believe as you do. And I feel thankful that my children are older and I don’t have to deal with it right now because it is very challenging. And I really do hand it to parents that are able to, not get rid of their phones, but have boundaries for themselves. Especially in those times that are togetherness times, the collecting when we’re in the transitions, when we’re greeting each other, saying goodbye to each other, the meal times.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Not to mention what that constant engagement with technology does to the parent. This last summer, I took a two-week break from digital media. I tell you, I was an addict in withdrawal. I turned the cell phone off. But even having turned it off, I picked it up several times a day, and then I thought, What am I doing? It’s not even on.

Janet Lansbury: How many days did it take you to not be checking it anymore?

Dr. Gabor Maté: The impulse never quite went away, but I never did turn it on for two weeks and I got calmer and more present to life as time went on. So what I’m saying is, quite apart from the impact on our kids, our constant cell phone obsession, what does it do to us? We become more scattered and less present, which then has an impact on the child.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. I wonder if you’d like to talk a little about this additional chapter, and then I promise to let you go.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thank you. So look, COVID, the pandemic was interesting because it imposed an isolation on a lot of people, a lot of families. And I know there’s a lot of controversy in retrospect about those policies, and I’m not going to get into that. I’m going to talk about actually what happened. Two interesting things happened. On the one hand, the incidents of child abuse went up. More children ended up in emergency wards throughout North America with injuries sustained in home violence. Home violence went up. In some families, drinking behavior went up. On the other hand, in some families it was a godsend. And some parents said, My God, I got to be at home to see my kids’ milestones and I got to interact with them. I learned how they played and I played with them.

So what actually happened was that in families where there was multi-generational, unresolved trauma and fewer resources, emotionally speaking, the pressure of isolation took away from some parents their usual lightning rods, their usual ways of dispersing their stress and their anxieties. They couldn’t go to football games or sports events, entertainment events or to the pub. So the unresolved frustrations and stresses and traumas became expressed in the family. And for those people and for those kids, COVID was a disaster. And furthermore, for the peer-oriented kids, it was a huge loss because all of a sudden they lost their attachments with the people that they were naturally—not naturally, but unnaturally oriented towards, and they were at a loss.

Those families where the attachment dynamics were functional, and those parents who were either economically or emotionally or both resourced enough, this is an opportunity to deepen and warm up and build the attachment relationship with the kids.

So some people think that the COVID experience showed the importance of peer relationships, because look how kids suffered in their absence. Actually what it showed was how unnaturally important peer relationships became, so that in their absence, kids suffered. That’s what it actually proved. Rather than countering our thesis, it proved it. But again, because people took that for granted that it’s the way it should be, they didn’t notice that. They thought it was the loss of the peer relationships that created the problem. No, it was the already-absent relationship with the adults that created the problem. In the absence of the peer relationships, the kids just got more unbalanced, which just shows that the peer relationships had been overemphasized in the first place. So that’s how we understand it. And for us, it just meant we have just doubled down on that relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, fascinating. Really eye-opening, and it makes a lot of sense. It really does.

I just want to say for everybody out there that this book, it will help you at every stage. It will help you to form secure attachments. And it will also help you notice when things might be not going the way that we hope and there’s some weaknesses in our attachment. And it also helps at any age to know how to get it back. As you said earlier, there’s nothing our child at any age wants more—or that we want more—but there’s nothing they want more than to reconnect. They just don’t know how. And we have to be the ones to lead that way back. But it will work, because it’s what children want more than anything. Whether it’s the two-year-old that we yelled at that just wants to feel safe with us again, or the adult child that feels estranged and doesn’t want to go through the rest of their life feeling that loss.

Dr. Gabor Maté: The two major responses we get to the book, some people say, Thanks, this saved our family because now I understand things. But the second interesting response we get is, Thank you, this book validated my instincts. So much of the parenting advice people get actually separates them from their instincts. So that when parents say to us, Thank you, your book validated my instincts. And now I can tell my friends who are telling me to use separation and timeout, “You know what? Here are these experts telling me that my instincts are right.” Now, you shouldn’t need experts to tell you that your instincts are right. As a matter of fact, I’d say in any contest between experts and instincts, listen to your instincts and forget the experts.

Janet Lansbury: Because your instincts know how to attach, that’s a primal thing that we all have. Your instincts know how to attach to your child. Your reasonable advice doesn’t necessarily.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right. But again, instincts have to be evoked by the environment. So anyway, the two responses we get are Thank you, now we see it differently. But the other response we get is Thank you, this validated my instincts.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, I mean this book is so informative and it’s alarming, though. And I could see where you might also get people saying, Oh, come on, that’s hogwash. It’s good to be with peers and it’s the best thing that could happen. But as you two point out, it’s when you come to that peer relationship from a place of you’re still holding on to your parent as a primary attachment, that that’s when it is healthy and works well.

Dr. Gabor Maté: We’re not saying kids shouldn’t play with each other. Children always have, since creation. But what was the context? The context of kids playing with each other was under the watchful eyes of caring adults. I remember growing up in Budapest, Hungary, in the 1950s. We played out in the street with other kids, but there were always parents on the balconies looking at us. And every neighborhood home was a home to all the kids so that we would go to each others’ homes and other mothers would give us lunch or look after us and so on. So that there was a community, a community of caring adults. So it’s not that children shouldn’t play with each other, it’s that that should not be the primary relationship, number one.

And number two, it needs to be in the context of adults being present. So if you’re going to have playdates on the weekend, for God’s sake, be there in the same room with the kids. Don’t have the adults chatting away here and the kids on their own. And adults should always be present with them. So maintain that primary relationship with the adults. Yes, kids should play with each other. No, that should not be the primary relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Because it’s about influence, right? Who’s influencing your child the most? We want that to be us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right.

Janet Lansbury: It’s such a hopeful book. And that last chapter was just such a beautiful ending, really hopeful and will leave parents feeling not afraid, but that this is normal. I mean, it isn’t normal like you said, but it is the new unfortunate normal and that there’s a lot that they can do to counteract some of the draws and influences. That that really is in our power and that children want it to be and need it to be.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right.

Janet Lansbury: Thank you so much for sharing with us and for this book. Your work is really profound in so many ways.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thanks for having me.

Janet Lansbury: It’s an honor. Thank you so much. Take care, and we’ll hopefully engage again at some point in the future.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Take care.

***

Thank you so much for listening and for all your kind support. We can do this.

The post Dr. Gabor Maté on Why Parents Matter More Than Ever appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “When Kids Hide Their Feelings and Reject Our Comfort”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be talking about an issue that many of you have asked about over the years. It’s the natural concern that we have when our child seems to be pushing us away when they’re upset or they seem uncomfortable expressing their feelings, even when we make sure to let them know we’re very, very open to that. Maybe we’ve read or heard or listened to podcasts like mine, talking about how important it is for children to feel safe to share all their feelings with us. That we want to cultivate an environment for them where all feelings are allowed—not all behaviors, but all feelings—and how this is a path to their resiliency and emotional fluency and emotional health.

So it’s obviously worrisome when our child doesn’t seem to be following that pattern, that they’re rejecting us when we try to comfort them, they’re trying to hide their feelings. Maybe they’re saying, “I’m fine, I’m fine,” or running away from us. What does this mean? How can we unpack this and what can we do to make it better? That’s what I’m going to be talking about today.

This time I’ll start with a note that I received from a parent. Some of the specifics in this note you probably won’t relate to, but the dynamic between this parent and her daughter is a common one. This was a message I received on Instagram:

Hi, Janet-

My husband and I are separating. We still co-habit, but I go away when it’s his turn to have them 50% of the time. I’ve noticed when I come back, my three-year-old seems very mad at me. I understand this feeling, but what worries me is the way it plays out.

It seems when she is upset or angry, she is afraid or ashamed of her emotions. She runs and hides, refuses any comfort, tells me to go away and shouts, “Mummy, I want Daddy back!” Today she shut herself in the bathroom and told me to go away if I opened the door. I sat outside, acknowledged her feelings, and let her know I was there and ready to help her when she needs me. The more I spoke, the more angry she was. She eventually just snapped out of it after 20 minutes. She denied hunger and had had a nap, so I don’t think she was tired.

Do you have any advice for helping her to be more comfortable with feeling sad or angry?

Okay, so one thing I appreciate is that this parent really pegs the issue in her last sentence here, that’s a question: “Do you have any advice for helping her to be more comfortable with feeling sad or angry?”

There aren’t that many issues in parenting that we can say, It always means this across the board, and You should do this or that. Because every child is a unique individual, every parent is an individual, our dynamic with each child is unique. That’s why I’m not a fan of categorizing children. I know it’s very popular these days to say that this is this type of child or that type of child. Dr. Mona Delahooke—who I miss so much in these spaces. She had a severe brain injury and she’s still recovering and healing, but she will be back. She agrees with me on this. I appreciate that so much because she is an expert in children that are neurodivergent. And she says as well, let’s approach each child as an individual. Yes, there are some issues children have that are measurably different, but mostly, everybody is a range of things, right? And we can miss so much when we try to adhere to advice that categorizes.

That said, I love that we can say across the board that when children are behaving in ways that are concerning, as in this case, any kind of what we might call “misbehavior,” there’s one thing we can say for sure, and that is that our child is uncomfortable. They’re uncomfortable in some way. It can be very minor discomfort, that, Hmm, they’re not quite giving me a clear answer on this. My parent seems a little uncomfortable, they’re unsure of themselves. So that very minor type of discomfort, ranging all the way to intense fear, trauma, stress, that kind of discomfort.

So when we want to understand and know how to help a child and how to make a difference, like this parent wants to make, what are they uncomfortable about? And why? In this case, she’s uncomfortable expressing her feelings with her parent. And maybe with both of her parents, I don’t know that, but we know she’s uncomfortable expressing it with this parent. And it doesn’t necessarily mean something that the parent did, it could mean the way other people besides this parent have responded to her. But something has made her uncomfortable with being in these emotional states.

Now I’m going to talk about some of the things that it could be, and then I’ll share what I think might be going on in this case with this child, because there’s some clues in this message. But let’s talk about generally what’s going on when children are uncomfortable around their emotions and around us witnessing their emotions.

First, some children are more introverted and more likely to internalize feelings. So, that tendency is there.

Two is the very obvious and severe ways that we make children uncomfortable around their feelings: punishing, shaming children for their feelings, reacting violently or in scary, threatening ways to our child. That makes sense to us, right? When children experience those responses, they’re going to learn very early on that they’re not safe to share their feelings. They need to hide them or stuff them. So I absolutely don’t believe that’s what’s going on in this message, but that’s one of the most obvious ways.

Similarly, if we’re judging, mocking, laughing at our children. There’s been trends that have come and gone where people are sharing that on social media, unfortunately. And no, the child doesn’t know the parent’s sharing it on social media and laughing at them, but they know the parent’s taking a video of them. So that’s obviously not going to encourage them to be open about their feelings.

Then it can be when we’re perceiving these as problematic situations that children need us to address and help them through. And this is where I’m not a fan of the advice to get children to take deep breaths and using calm down jars or other methods to try to help children to calm down. By doing that actively, with all this power that we have as parents—remember, there’s a power differential here. We are so powerful in the way that we respond to our child. In their eyes, we are god-like, especially in the early years. If we’re addressing, with the best of intentions, our child’s feelings with this perception that this is something we need to help them get through and do something about, that can create fear in them in regard to feelings they have that are already uncomfortable. So they’re having the uncomfortable feeling and now my parent’s reacting as if this isn’t a safe place for me to be in myself, that I need to feel better. Well, that can make me feel scared or just uncomfortable with the idea that I’m feeling this. My parent is teaching me that it needs to go away. It’s a problem and I need to do something about it to make it better.

So yes, while it can help children to have a quiet, call it a calm-down place or whatever, but a quiet, unthreatening place to be. Let’s say we’re in a group situation, there’s a calm-down area for a child. We want to approach that not as we’re secluding that child or we’re banishing that child or forcing them to be alone or that now you go in there and you’ve got to feel better. We don’t want to approach it that way, as a problem, but as just a safe place that we trust you to be in while the feelings run their course. In other words, we want this to be a choice that’s helpful to our child, but doesn’t give the message that there’s something wrong here that we need to make better.

Another one, I guess this is number four, when children get into the habit of pacifiers or even thumb-sucking as a comfort tool that they go to as soon as they’re upset. Now, a child’s need to suck can help them to center themselves as babies and toddlers. Thumb-sucking especially is, I believe, a fine and healthy choice. But as children are passing age two or three, we just want to take notice of how they’re using those tools. And I wouldn’t try to change everything overnight or rip those away from them at a certain age. Maybe dentists are going to tell you to do that, but I’m not. When children are used to something, we want them to actually be ready to let go of that, and then we can work together with them to change that.

But in the interim, what I recommend—and actually I’ve never had a chance to say this on a podcast before—is to notice when your child is going there, to that thumb or wants that pacifier, and giving it a moment. Where we, not in a worrisome way, but we just gently reflect: “You’re wanting to suck your thumb right now,” or “You’re wanting your pacifier right now because you’re sad, it seems like.” Whatever we know happened: “This happened and you seem sad or you seem mad about it. You can always tell me those things. I want to know.” So we’re just opening that door. We’re not trying to force or push that our child has to share with us. Because that’s going to do the opposite, right? That’s going to make our child feel pressured and even more uncomfortable. But just opening that up, I see you and I’m here and I’m not going to judge you or make a big deal out of it. I mean, that part we wouldn’t say, but just show. You can always share with me. I see how you’re using that right now. So just that very light, opening the door for them to share a little bit or share a little bit more. But not stressing ourselves out about it, because that’s the other thing, with all our power, that makes children uncomfortable.

That’s why co-regulation, when we hear that term, it really describes this beautifully. Because co-regulation is both of us together. That means I’m not calming you down, I’m calming myself down so that you can calm down, in your time. Oftentimes it helps in these situations for us to actually take the focus off our child and put it on ourselves. Telling ourselves, I’m safe. I can be calm. This will pass. This is actually the best thing my child could be doing right now, expressing what they’re feeling.

Number five, we can make children feel uncomfortable or pressured when we make An Event out of any hurt or other unhappy feeling. So this is related to the problematic situation, right? But in this situation, maybe it’s not about us actively saying, “deep breaths, deep breaths,” but we’re putting a focus on the situation. And I know this is an impression I think maybe I give sometimes about feelings. Because I often get asked, or parents often comment, that they’re going through a hard time with their child and they have other children and they just can’t work their child through all these big meltdowns that they’re having. And how do they manage? Because it’s just too much.

I think this idea that every feeling our child has is a big event may be why some in the press are doing these articles that are mocking gentle parenting or suggesting that it’s damaging. Now, I still don’t know what “gentle parenting” means because nobody seems to define it. I do know that bashing it seems to be sort of clickbait lately, people love to pile on in comments on articles that are about all the awful things that parents are doing. I don’t think that helps anyone. But I do think that at least part of the reason for that is this misunderstanding that parenting advisors like me think that fostering emotional health means we’re giving this big, drawn-out attention to every feeling a child has, indulging them in that way, putting everything aside while we wait this out. And parents complain, understandably, that this is way too much work on top of everything else that they have to do.

And I couldn’t agree more! Doing work around children’s emotions is not a job I recommend taking on because it’s not possible for us. It’s impossible. And it doesn’t help our children, because making a big event out of an every-day, perhaps multiple-times-a-day, life experience that children have—younger children especially—that’s just going to wear us out. We’re not going to survive that. What I recommend is a letting go. That’s why I say letting feelings be. Let go, let feelings be. Focus on acceptance, anchoring and calming ourselves while the rough waves pass us by. We’re not trying to do anything with them or about them. We’re not trying to stop them. We know they need to flow, so we’re just going to accept them and let them be.

Being an anchor doesn’t mean we have to stand there watching either. It’s an attitude, it’s a conviction in this idea of acceptance. And I can accept from across the room, I can accept if I have to leave the room, I can accept if I need to help carry you into the car or out of the car while you’re having a hard time. Acceptance is an attitude, it doesn’t take work. It does take practicing a perspective on feelings that I’ve shared about umpteen times in this podcast, but I know it’s never enough, because it’s never enough for me to not forget: that feelings are safe, feelings are normal, feelings are okay. When we do make an event, then children can feel everything ranging from pressured to embarrassed. It’s too much focus on them in a vulnerable time, and that can cause them to want to push us away, hide.

That can happen when a child falls down or bumps themself and a parent gets really upset about that or so sympathetic, and we’re running towards our child as if it’s an emergency. That’s an impulse a lot of us have, and it’s a good one to try to get perspective on. Because our tone is always going to set the tone. And children don’t want a big fuss made over them, especially when they’re upset. A good default is to observe, listen, receive your child’s energy first, and maybe all the way through if they’re having a feeling, instead of trying to talk or do something about it. So even if our child falls from across the room, we look first. Maybe we start to approach, but slowly, not running over. “You fell.” And then we see that our child is crying, or maybe they’re not crying, but let’s say they’re crying first. “Oh no, did that hurt? Ouch. You didn’t like that.” With a very small child, we might just go over with them what happened, but in this very reflective way. We’re not trying to talk about it, we’re not trying to say words. We’re just noticing: “I think you tripped on this, right? On this toy. Yeah, ouch.” And then we let it go. And if we’re reading that our child seems to want to hug, then we hug. Mostly we’re just receiving, allowing, and accepting.

Of course, if there’s something we could do physically to help our child feel better, we will. Ideally not in panic mode, making a big event out of it. Because then children feel that too, that it’s too much. It’s too uncomfortable, it’s too much pressure, it’s too embarrassing. They’re the center of attention. And sometimes they can sort of feel like it’s their role to help us feel better, because they sense that we’re feeling as uncomfortable as they are. And it’s hard not to as parents, because we do love our kids and we never want to see them hurt or sad or anything besides happy. But I guess that’s where being brave for our child really can be a positive thing. And just being receivers.

Getting back to this parent’s note, she knows, as she says, that these feelings her child has make a lot of sense. She says, “When I come back, my three-year-old seems very mad at me. I understand this feeling, but what worries me is the way it plays out.” So this parent is sharing, and this is why she shared the note with me, that she’s worried. One thing I can know is that her child is feeling the parent’s worry in these moments. And even that can add to a child’s discomfort and make it harder for them to want to share. Maybe one or two times we noticed they didn’t seem to want to talk about it, so now we’re worried. And our child is feeling that. They just want to have their feeling. They don’t consciously think like this, but Just let me have my feeling! I think we can all relate to that. Sometimes when a partner or a friend or a relative or someone is trying to make us feel better and, Just let me have my feeling! If you’re worried about me, now I have to worry about you and I can’t just feel how I feel myself. So that’s something to look at, possibly.

Then this parent says, “It seems when she is upset or angry, she is afraid or ashamed of her emotions.” Again, this parent, very perceptive, insightful. She’s sensing her child is afraid or ashamed about her emotions. That’s the discomfort that her child feels. Now, why would she be afraid? Maybe because her parent is worried. Maybe because she feels a little bit too much attention around this and that’s why she’s ashamed. Maybe she’s ashamed because she feels the parent is too concerned about this, putting too much attention on it. I’m just throwing these things out here, I obviously don’t know for sure. And I don’t blame this parent for anything she’s feeling. She’s going through it, it’s a tough situation all around.

The parent says, “She runs and hides, refuses any comfort, tells me to go away and shouts, ‘Mummy, I want Daddy back!'” The running and hiding—yes, it could be that it’s too hard to try to contain that parent’s feelings while I have mine, as a child. So I need to just get some privacy with this.

“Refuses any comfort.” I wonder if the dear mother, out of her worry, is wanting to comfort her child, but in a way might be wanting to comfort herself that this is going to be okay. I don’t know that, but I mean, I can feel that as a parent. I can feel, I want you to feel better so I can feel better. That’s often where our wish to actively comfort comes from. And I don’t know what this comfort looks like when she says her daughter refuses it. Comfort in this case will come when the parent lets go a little bit more, lets go of worrying. Because, as she says, she understands the feeling. And the feeling makes sense to me. So it’s safe for her child to have this feeling all the way through, and that’s what she needs to do to get to the other side of it.

She says that her daughter tells her to go away and shouts, “Mummy, I want Daddy back!” That is her expressing her feeling. She’s expressing her anger and her upset feeling there and her sadness, maybe. I want Daddy back! I have to make this transition. Go away! I’m not ready to transition from Daddy to you yet. I need to have this passage of feelings first. So let me have them. Don’t get in my way. Even though the parent is trying so hard to do the right thing, right?

She says, “Today she shut herself in the bathroom and told me to go away if I opened the door. I sat outside, acknowledged her feelings, and let her know I was there and ready to help her when she needs me. The more I spoke, the more angry she was.” Yes. So when our acknowledging and our words make our child angrier or more upset, it’s often because, and I think that’s true in this case, maybe our intention in saying these words, maybe it’s coming out of our worry. Our wanting to work her through this, that this is a problem, that we’ve got to say these things and let her know that we’re there. When our child just needs to not be thinking about us and just to be in herself and her feelings.

And then of course, you’ve got to love this: “She eventually just snapped out of it after 20 minutes.” Snapped out of it. That’s what children do, especially at this age. They do snap out of it, when they’re ready to.

So, in answer to this question, “Do you have any advice for helping her to be more comfortable when feeling sad or angry?” Yes. I would calm myself. Not try to talk, not try to comfort. Know that your child feels your presence, they feel your worry or they feel your acceptance. If we can let go of worry and let ourselves drop into acceptance, let the feelings be, just keeping the focus on ourselves, then our child will feel that safe space to express her feelings. And when we’ve done this a few times around all her feelings, especially these ones that are so triggering for us, right? Because I’m sure this parent has her own feelings she’s processing and navigating about this situation. It’s so hard. But trying to keep that separate and just focus on herself, and let her child have it her way, the way that she does it. Which may be shutting herself away for a while, that’s okay. Trust that it’s a process.

And if we can show, not tell her, that we’re there for her and ready to help when she needs us. Even that—obviously this parent doesn’t mean it that way, but it can be pressurizing. Alright, I’m waiting. Let me know if you need me. It feels, as the child, like we’re getting rushed, like we’re supposed to feel better because our mom is doing all this stuff to try to help us feel better, saying the right things, doing the right things. We just want to feel how we feel. Just leave me alone! It can make sense when we put ourselves in our child’s shoes. And if we can trust more and accept more, she will feel safer to have them in our presence. But I wouldn’t have that be your goal. I would just have your goal be to let her do her thing the way that she does it, and trust that she’s going to come out the other side and feel better, probably snap out of it the way children do.

And that’s our job, we’ve done it. Accepting the feelings and also accepting the way our child is expressing them. Even if it doesn’t look the way that we imagine or the way it is in the movies or the way that looks like this wonderful parent and we have this moment together where we hug. That’s just not the vibe of these feelings right now. Giving into that and just letting go of it is the way.

Just a couple details about separations. Understanding more, again, how much sense these feelings make. This is a big transition for this child, or any child, to let go of one parent and be with another. Even if they’re staying in the same house and the parents are moving back and forth, or if they’re the ones that are moving from house to house. All transitions tend to be challenging for children, just getting up and going from here to there. And now here’s one that’s especially challenging, separating from one attachment figure and embracing another.

This can be easier for children when they feel like their attachment figures are aligned, not separate. But that’s not always the way our lives as parents work out, right? So no guilt there. But it’s something to realize, just to help us even more to normalize what she’s going through. Realizing that this is a natural time for her to express the strongest feelings, and the best thing she can do is to vent them out. And it can help kids if we’re able to give our partner who we’re separated from or divorced from grace, so children can still experience as much as possible a harmonious unit between parents. But that’s not always possible, I know.

Here’s some general suggestions for any parent going through something like this, where their child isn’t allowing them to comfort them or showing them their feelings the way the parent wishes them to. Allow. Allow children to express their feelings in their own immature way. Yelling at us may be a part of that. It’s not personal. Allow children to find their way to calm in their own way and time. So we’re not trying to dictate that for them or affect it in any way. That can be a tough one for us, right? And lastly, allow children to hide or not talk about it or stuff it with their thumb or their pacifier, after we’ve opened up that door for them to share with us very briefly. Don’t impose any pressure at all on what they’re doing, that they have to do it differently for us because we want them to. This is easier when we let go of feelings as some kind of agenda for us, and we’re just available. Within reason, I mean, we’re not going to let ourselves be screamed at in the face or pummeled or otherwise abused. We’re just being available, trusting. We’re calming ourselves, and that is the best way to comfort them or co-regulate, if we want to call it that. Calming ourselves, letting the feelings be. So simple, yet so not easy.

I share a whole section on meltdowns and tantrums and other feelings that children have, whining, and how we can handle that, how we can approach it, how to feel about it, in my No Bad Kids Master Course. You can check it out at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thank you so much for listening. I hope some of this helps. We can do this.

The post When Kids Hide Their Feelings and Reject Our Comfort appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “How to Connect with Your Upset Child, Even When There’s More Than One”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I have a question from a parent who wonders how she can connect with her children when she has two of them and there’s only one of her and they both seem to be needing her attention. I’m going to talk a little bit about what connecting with our children when they’re upset and in need of our attention actually looks and feels like.

Here’s the question I received:

Hi,

I’ve been reading more about respectful parenting and I have a question. If I’m interpreting it correctly, when I can tell my four-and-a-half-year-old son is feeling disconnected from me due to his behavior —whining, acting out, etc.— I should focus on connection to prevent power struggles and escalation of his behavior. I’m just wondering how to focus on the connection right there in the moment when I’m by myself with an 18-month-old as well.

My four-and-a-half-year-old likes to connect by climbing onto my lap for a cuddle, but my 18-month-old clearly gets jealous and starts squealing, ear-splitting, not possible to tune out, attempting to climb on me, hitting his brother, etc. If I pick him up too and cuddle them both, then he pushes, hits, kicks his brother, who then retaliates. Instead of properly focusing on connecting with my four-and-a-half-year-old, I’m trying to console/fend off my 18-month-old. My 18-month-old refuses to be redirected or distracted by anything. I’m just unsure of how to make this work with two children when I’m by myself the vast majority of the time. Partner works long hours.

Okay, so I chose this question because she brings up so many important points that I want to address. These are common, nuanced misunderstandings and misconceptions about the respectful parenting approach that I teach. And it’s easy to have those, even if I was the perfect communicator of this approach, which I’m not.

Yes, in a general sense, a child who is whining or acting out, etc. is in a place of disconnection and they do need us to connect with them. But what does that look like, and then what does that look like when we have another child or multiple children there as well, and they seem to need our attention? How do we connect with all of these children at once and how does that connection actually look with each child?

This parent gives the example that her four-and-a-half-year-old likes to connect by climbing onto her lap for a cuddle. Now, I’m not sure what has gone on before that and what the behavior or the feelings are that cause them to want to climb into her lap. But first I’ll say that the way to connect with children is not necessarily to give them what they seem to want on the surface in that moment. That is not what it means to connect with an upset child with this approach. When children are upset and behaving erratically or they’re even just whining, they’re not in that logical, rational part of their brain. They’re in the emotional centers of their brain. They’re just in their emotion, and the things that they ask for or demand or want in those states aren’t logical either.

And when it’s out of those feelings, often it’s just a part of expressing that feeling. When they’re wanting to tell us what to do, they need this, or they need another one of those. These are feelings, not facts. So when it’s out of these feelings, what connection is about is really just holding space and supporting those feelings to be expressed. It’s not to try to offer a solution to make the feeling stop. True connecting is seeing what’s really going on with our children, which isn’t always easy because we get touched off by their behavior and the emotions that they’re expressing. We can get easily overwhelmed.

So what I try to work on with parents is to perceive as accurately as possible, to see what’s really going on beneath the surface when our child is going to these places. And to recognize it as early as possible. Recognize that these behaviors that our individual child commonly displays aren’t reasonable requests. It’s more that they’ve just gone to a place that they need to ride out, with our support. And what our support is in those times is really mostly emotional support and acceptance. And out of that acceptance can come acknowledging: “Oh, you want this and you want that, and now you want to sit on my lap.” And if that’s something that the parent can’t comfortably do in that moment, she’s juggling things on the stove or she’s otherwise busy with something, it doesn’t work for her to cuddle right there, then I would cuddle a different way: with my emotional connection with my child. Which means seeing them, seeing and hearing what they’re saying. You want to cuddle and I can’t, and that’s so hard, isn’t it? It’s frustrating. You really want to be with me. Not necessarily even saying those words or any words, but looking at our child with that acceptance, welcoming their feelings while we keep doing what we have to do as the adult in the room.

Ideally, we can pause and give them that moment, but we don’t even have to pause. We can actually connect while we’re doing something else. Connection is in the way that we accept. It’s the way that we’re looking at our child, making that eye contact with that soft, accepting gaze. Calming ourselves, that’s a big part of this. Seeing that dysregulation our child is experiencing, not blaming them, not getting personally offended by what they’re doing. Understanding that this is just a place they’ve gone for now and it’s bigger than they are and it will pass.

But now let’s say that cuddling with our child is a good idea, right then. It’s something that we can do and we want to say yes to our child’s request. That’s lovely. Now, what happens if here comes her other child, who she says clearly gets jealous and starts squealing, ear-splitting, not possible to tune out, attempting to climb on her, hitting his brother, etc. What’s happened there? Her 18-month-old is venting some feelings of his own. He’s going into an emotional state. Oftentimes, a child’s feelings tap into another child’s feelings, giving them the opportunity to vent as well. And this is actually a form of empathy. You’ll see babies crying when they hear other babies cry or when they hear their older sibling upset. It doesn’t mean that they’re having some deep sadness. It’s a reflexive response and it’s kind of a nice thing that they’re joining with their sibling in those feelings.

And now her 18-month-old, he’s not going to be behaving reasonably either, and he starts squealing. Yes, it is ear-splitting, but the important thing here is that we don’t try to fix those feelings. We don’t follow that impulse that we all have as parents to comfort those feelings away, to console them away, to make them better. This mother says, “I’m trying to console and fend off my 18-month-old.” Consoling. Now, that’s a word that sounds very active on the parent’s part, to try to change something, and that can’t be our role. We don’t have that power, and that actually isn’t as connected —or I would say, even as loving— as seeing, accepting, allowing the feelings. What’s known as co-regulation. I’m not regulating you, I’m staying regulated along with you so that you can come back to that state. And now let’s say the 18-month-old comes over, and I’m still cuddling my four-and-a-half-year-old, and I acknowledge, “Ah, now you want me too.” And I’m looking at him. “You want to get up here too.” But I wouldn’t give into that because both children need the message that when we’re there for them, we’re there for them. We’re not going to move them away to make room for the other child because the other child is demanding it. And we can still connect with that 18-month-old, but trying to please both of them, as his mother shares, pleases neither child.

And it’s not our role in the situation. Again, connecting, it’s not about pleasing our child with what they’re saying on the surface. It’s about seeing in and allowing our child to be where they are in that moment, even encouraging our child to be where they are in that moment, because the feelings are not logical facts. This isn’t a deep need that our younger one has to be on our lap when the older one is there. We have to believe that, I know it’s hard. But our 18-month-old might behave that way after we’ve spent the entire day cuddling with them while the older one was in preschool. And now we give five minutes to this older child and the 18-month-old still complains, maybe. He has a right to, but what does that tell us? Hopefully it tells us that it’s not about getting what they seem to want in the moment. It’s venting. It’s an emotional release that’s super important. Maybe that child has been holding onto some control of getting his way with his mother and getting stuck there, instead of letting go and releasing some of that toddler angst.

Toddlerhood, it’s a very emotional time, and four-and-a-half is an emotional time too. It’s another stage of growing towards more autonomy and all of the push-and-pull feelings that go along with that. Both of these children, even if there weren’t any other stressors in their environment, have lots of reasons to vent feelings. And if this parent, like a lot of us do, has been trying to console or make things better, rather than rolling out the red carpet, supporting those feelings to be expressed, then there can be a buildup. And children, in this healthy manner that they have, will keep pushing up against us to —on an unconscious level— find those ways to vent. They’ll keep trying to release those feelings.

And that may be what the 18-month-old is doing here, pushing up against a limit that he needs to be able to let go of. Connecting with him is seeing that, seeing that he doesn’t actually need to be on his mother’s lap at the moment. What he needs to do is be in that place of frustration, be in a place of I don’t control everything and this feels awful, that kind of letting go. The way this could look would be, I’m cuddling my four-and-a-half-year-old and here comes my other baby. Oh shoot, you want to be here too, and I’m with your brother right now. That’s so hard. You don’t like when that happens. Again, not saying those words. I say a lot of words in these podcasts because I’m trying to demonstrate an attitude towards the feelings, an accepting attitude. And not accepting with sadness, but with, You have a right to the power of those feelings! I’m not trying to throw cold water on them and I don’t feel sad about them. I want you to feel heard.

Being that leader that still holds onto what I’m doing, the choices I have to make in these situations. Which is, in this case, I’m giving cuddles to this child who asked me first. I’m not going to erase that because his brother wants it as well. And she’s giving this older child some really, really important messages about his worth, about him getting to be prioritized sometimes. He’s already given up his parents to the birth of this sibling and now there’s this rival there and somebody else that he has to share it with. He can’t be expected to share every moment, so it makes sense to me that when she does allow the 18-month-old on her lap, wanting to please him too naturally, then there’s kicking and then the brother retaliates. Yeah, of course he does. It’s hurtful to never get to just have your mother to yourself for a moment because she wants to please your brother as well. So this is where it will help us to rise up to this job and be that person that can say no, even to an 18-month-old.

When she says that he attempts to climb on her and hit his brother, the 18-month-old, I would have your hand there firmly, not even letting him start to climb, if possible. Being very firm in a loving manner, being on this physically. So you’ve got maybe one arm around your four-and-a-half-year-old, and then maybe you have to take your other arm and your hand to hold off this 18-month-old, putting your hand up to physically block him. So we’re not even letting him start to climb up. And if he does get a chance to climb up a little, you gently but firmly help him down again, holding him off so that he can’t get up there or hit his brother or hit you. Be on this in a preventative manner if possible. Strong, convicted in your choice here. As a parent, that’s what both these boys need in this situation, a confident leader.

And other times this scenario may be reversed and it’s the 18-month-old whose right to be with his mother and have her attention at that moment is protected. Yes, of course we’re not going to really be able to pay full attention when there’s another child there screaming about it, but it’s that message that we give each time that makes this kind of rivalry not happen as often. Because children know that we’re not going to let them battle that way for our attention. That we’re strong and confident. We don’t feel it’s our job to please everybody and to calm down every emotion and try to make it better. That’s an impossible job for us as parents. This would be true with twins, with multiple children, in a classroom. We have to be the leader that displeases people, knowing that it’s really healthy for children to be in that situation and to vent those feelings.

So, trying to let go of the squealing, but I would fully prevent him from hitting or climbing on you. Holding him off firmly, not feeling like, Oh, I’ve got to let him get up and now I’ve got to get him off again. Being as preventative as possible physically. This parent says, “I pick him up too and cuddle them both.” So I recommend absolutely not doing that. I would stay focused as much as she can on just being with her four-and-a-half-year-old, letting his feelings be in the comfort of her arms, not trying to console the 18-month-old. When she says “fend off,” that sounds like maybe she’s letting him get too far. We don’t have to fend off when we’re confidently on it from the beginning, not even letting it start.

At the same time, we’re encouraging those feelings that the child has. Connecting with him by allowing his frustration, encouraging him to share that with you. Not feeling responsible for it, definitely not wanting to fix it. Understanding that it’s actually not just about this specific situation, that he needed to be on your lap. That is simply what touched him off. That’s what it means to connect, it’s a mindset. Obviously, she’s not really getting to focus on connecting with her four-and-a-half-year-old when this is going on, but maybe the next time or in a couple of times, because she’s being so clear with both of them so they can both receive this important message.

She says, “My 18-month-old refuses to be redirected or distracted by anything.” Right, and that’s actually healthy on his end because redirecting or distracting are really the opposite of connecting in this situation, and children feel that. Distracting a child from what’s happening, it can only be disconnecting. It’s literally saying, What you’re feeling isn’t happening. Focus on this and don’t feel what you feel. Don’t be where you are in this moment. I don’t recommend distracting a child no matter how young the child is and disconnecting that way. And redirecting is, again, in this situation, saying, Ooh, don’t want what you want. Don’t feel what you feel. Why don’t you do this? And that’s also putting the onus on us to try to fix it and make it better. I’ve got to do something to change this! But that can’t be our job because it’s not a job that’s going to work in the short- or long-term, and it’s not really going to be what the parent wants, which is to connect with her children.

In her final sentence, she says, “just unsure of how to make this work with two children.” What I would like to help her reframe is what “making it work” looks like. What connecting looks like. It’s not, Okay now I’ve made it work and everything is smooth. Unfortunately, it’s not that. Having young children is emotionally messy for them, and that’s why our attitude towards and perception of emotions is so crucial to ours and our child’s wellbeing. And we can do this with one or two or 12 or a whole classroom of children all venting together. Teachers can encourage at the beginning of the preschool year, for example, when several children are having a hard time with separation, Ah, you too. Ah, you all miss your moms and dads so much right now. It’s so hard to say goodbye. Yeah, it’s okay for all of us to feel sad. It’s like a group therapy session where our only role is encouraging and empathizing, not trying to make it all better. I suggest that actual thing all the time in teacher trainings and they think it’s bizarre when I suggest it, but it works. And it takes the pressure off of us. It takes demanding the impossible off of us.

I hope some of that helps. Also, please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting, you can get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon,

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post How to Connect with Your Upset Child, Even When There’s More Than One appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Mental Health Starts in Infancy (with Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m hosting infant mental health and infant-parent relationship expert Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon. Angela’s also a fellow RIE Associate and now serves on their board, after serving a long tenure at the nonprofit Zero to Three. Dr. Fisher-Solomon has worked on national projects on home visiting, family childcare, Early Head Start, and more.

Today we’ll be discussing what infant mental health really means. It might not be what you think. So, what is it? What is it not? Why is it important? And what can we do to nurture it? Which includes understanding secure attachment, stimulation, infant emotions, and a lot more. I’m really looking forward to this.

Hi, Angela. Welcome to Unruffled.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Good afternoon, Janet. Thank you so much for having me. It is such an honor to be able to sit and chat with you on one of my favorite topics.

Janet Lansbury: Well, the honor’s completely mine, let me tell you. I’m so thrilled to be able to share your wisdom and many years of experience with my listeners. So thank you for taking the time to be here. Like you said, I love this topic. It’s one that isn’t a part of the conversation in parenting as much as a lot of other topics. Why do you think that is? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I think families, and particularly parents, often they shy away from the terms infant mental health because people often think about mental health as, Oh my goodness, if you say infant mental health, does that mean that something is quote unquote “wrong” with my baby? And it does not mean that at all. Infant mental health has what we call synonymous definition, which simply means social-emotional development in babies and toddlers, and that’s all it means. It is really just the capacity of a baby or toddler to experience, regulate, and express their emotions. It’s also their ability to form close and secure relationships and really to explore the environment and learn. All within the context of biology, relationships, and culture.

And so, on one hand, that’s a big definition in terms of the field. But to parents, when parents ask me, well, what exactly is infant mental health? I often just simply say, think of it as, how is your child developing their social-emotional skills? And then that leads into attachment and what does that look like? And basically, just how is your child’s overall emotional wellbeing, what does that look like? And then as an infant mental health specialist, we break that down.

Janet Lansbury: So what are some of the important practices that parents should consider engaging in with their babies and what signs from them are showing us that we’re on the right track? Can you talk about that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Infant mental health, I have found, and in my research, really I link it back to what is happening to the baby in utero. Because infant mental health doesn’t just start when the baby is here, right? After the baby is born. It starts with the connections prenatally. So I often like to tell parents it starts there. What kind of pregnancy did you have? How did you feel about the baby? How were your emotions? Because we know that emotions during the journey of pregnancy are sometimes up and down, right?

Then once your beautiful baby has arrived, what is the connection? Because as soon as the baby is born, infants come into the world, as you know, seeking the connection of another human face, particularly the mother, father, or whoever is going to be that primary caregiver in the child’s life. And it often starts out with something as simple as the earliest connection, making eye-to-eye contact with the baby. Touching a newborn is like heaven. And making that up close, eight to 12 inches from the baby’s face so that they know by smells and using their other senses, they know who mom is. And a lot of research says they also know who dad is, particularly if the dad has been able to talk to the baby in the womb on a regular basis. So parents ask, how can I help my infant have a strong social-emotional capacity? I tell them, by building a healthy, secure attachment relationship, which in turn builds trust and security.

And in my research, which looks at confidence-building in babies, it’s really this —and we know this, you and I often talk about it in many different scenarios— the importance of going slow with an infant. Your language, your eye rapid movement, the tempo of your body language, babies pick up everything. And what we consider to be small nuances of how you interact with a baby, how you observe the baby. And that consistency really in fact is building the necessary skills for strong social-emotional capacity, which ultimately means you are building strong social-emotional skills, which lead to strong cognitive skills and so on and so forth. Because it is strengthening that particular developmental domain and the baby’s brain.

Janet Lansbury: Because it’s giving them that sense of calm and security that allows them to—

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Regulate.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, and then therefore have the capacity to develop cognitive skills and these other skills.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. I mean, everyone wants their child to do well academically. Even if a baby is, let’s say two, three days old, it’s natural for a parent to think, I want my child to be able to read before they get to kindergarten. Or, what should I do? How can I make them and help them to have strong cognitive skills? You know, we as adults, we have societal pressures. So as parents we can’t help but start thinking further ahead. And you know, Magda Gerber used to often say about being in the moment, but it is understanding, and in the world of infant mental health we zero in on: to what degree is slow. Observation, being able to understand the developmental cues, being able to identify them, being able to read them consistently, and being able to meet the emotional needs of the baby. 

An example is, when we talk about regulation, if your baby is crying and you may come close, you have the best of intentions, but in fact the baby already could be overly stimulated and it turns its head away from you because it actually needs to shut down and have a little quiet time. So infant mental health is about helping parents to identify those cues and come alongside the baby, in a sense, so that the baby is dictating what it needs and the parent is better able to give them that.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. And that example of overstimulation, that’s one that’s I think so commonly misunderstood. And there are so many products that we’re offered as parents to maybe make our child smarter or learn faster or be less bored or whatever, that actually are very overstimulating. And I know that this idea of how sensitive babies are to stimulation, that got away from me a lot, even with my third baby. Because we can’t gauge that on our own stimulation needs, they’re so much more sensitive.

And it’s like what you were saying about slowing down, too. We can’t be with a baby in a way that’s really going to be helpful to them if it’s on our adult pace. Magda Gerber and Pikler talked about this a lot, and Heidelise Als, who did so much research with preemies, talked about how jarring it is for them when we’re on an adult, more rapid pace in the way that we talk to them or handle them. So I feel like those things, maybe there’s not enough information and support and reminders out there that babies are… their newness to the world and all this incredible learning potential that they have, they’re so open to the world and yes, everything is more to them. They need so much less than we think.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: You know, infants, their right brain develops much earlier than the left side of their brain. And the right brain is what controls their emotional development. Yes, they come into the world with over 70 billion brain cells. So they come into the world very, very smart. Their senses are heightened. But to your point, the one thing that is not always considered is, although they are simply brilliant and competent little people, their ability to take in information, it must be slow.

You know, parents often wonder, Why do I have to repeat myself, even to my toddler? I explained to them, because it takes them probably around the third time, sometimes the fourth time for it to register. You know, let’s say if it’s a toddler who is only speaking a few words, but if you are using hand gestures and you speak slow enough and use eye contact, even an infant, they’re going to understand you.

And I’ve had parents challenge me, that there’s no way my four month old can understand me and I give them little experiments. Yes. Why? You know, you speak to the baby in a certain way and then I begin to show the parent, Look at her eyes, look at her hands starting to open and close. Her breathing is increasing. She knows I’m explaining something. Parents sometimes think that they’re just little nuances, but they in fact have great meaning.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. That’s what I say to parents too because I often get that, Oh, what’s the point? And, They can’t understand. And I suggest, Try it. And people have come back to me and said, Oh my gosh, okay, I saw it. I saw my baby registering what I said, or I saw them responding in a way that proved to me or seemed to prove to me… It’s still freaky, right? They understood what we were talking about.

About stimulation… I was just imagining, for us it would be we’re in a stadium, really noisy, there’s all this stimulation, all this stuff going on. Which is I think how babies must feel just being there in the world. Because they’re taking everything in—every sound, every sight, everything all at once. And then yes, if we were in that stadium with all of that stimulation and all that sound and all that sight, then it’s going to take a little while for you to communicate with us because we have to tune some of that out just to be able to focus on what you’re saying. I don’t know if that’s a proper analogy, but that’s what came to my mind.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: It absolutely is a wonderful analogy. And I teach on infant brain development to college and graduate students and I often say to them that, there’s understanding brain development, you’re neuroscientists or something like that. But for a parent, they don’t necessarily need to know it to that degree. They need to know how a baby’s brain works, in that a baby’s brain literally depends on the social interaction in order for the right side of that brain to flourish and for the neurons and the connections to get strong enough. And to understand, to your point, that quieter environment, it gives the baby the opportunity to regulate itself. It’s hard, even for adults, for us to regulate our own emotions and our bodies and our senses if we’re, what did you say, in the middle of a stadium. You know, our ability as adults to be intentional, physically, emotionally. Why do we think infants are any different?

And if anything, because they haven’t been in the world that long. They’ve been inside the womb, this really safe, dark but comforting place where only they’re really dealing with their mother’s heartbeat. Even if it’s a water birth, however the child enters the world, it is still a shock. Because now they’ve got lights and they’ve got people moving around, they can’t really see clearly. So it’s a lot for their brain. And again, the right side is much more developed than the left side. The left side holds cognitive and language skills, it doesn’t really develop until closer to age one. So the right side is working a lot and babies need consistent but quieter sounds to begin to allow them to kind of regulate and get their own body rhythms. And we talk about, from Magda, telling a baby what you’re going to do before you do it and pausing and waiting.

All of those practices really help babies, it gives them time. And parents often find that if you give your baby that time and that consistency and you’re going slowly, you literally are helping them to build their social-emotional capacity. Because as they grow, everything is going to start to increase, right? And become a little bit faster. There’s such a big difference between an infant, a toddler, and then a preschooler who’s running around and jumping and going from one thing to the next because they have the capacity to do that. Between age four and five, Oh, he can sit and listen to a preschool teacher. Or the things where when you need them to wait, well, when you go slow in the beginning you’ve been building their social-emotional development, a.k.a. their mental health, they are better able to regulate their bodies. And typically it affects their sleep schedule, their sleep cycles, their feeding cycles, and their play cycles with their loving parents.

Janet Lansbury: Yes.

I wanted to ask you about something because when you brought it up, I got a little feeling of uh-oh, and I’m sure other parents worry about this. You talked about how our feelings around our pregnancy, and of course we all know —and some of us have experienced— postpartum depression, or that anxiety as a new parent or just after the birth of a baby. Well, we can’t help how we feel if we’re depressed during pregnancy, right? I had a very difficult third pregnancy. I think I was maybe too old to be having a baby, I don’t know. But I had a lot of negative feelings.

You know, there’s very extreme things that parents go through. And there are also situations where of course babies are premature, their brain hasn’t finished fully developing as a full-term baby’s would. And then there are situations where there’s adoption and the baby has, I believe, a sense of loss of leaving the person that smelled and spoke like that, that they heard in the womb, and going to someone else. What do we do if that was our situation? How can we help our babies to process that? Is it just being even more sensitive the way you’re talking about? Or can we expect certain things from them that we might not expect from a full-term baby where everybody was emotionally healthy all through it?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Sometimes parents are not able, they don’t necessarily arrive in the best situation. Or to your point, if in this case that there is a mother going through postpartum and she may not have the capacity to give her child the nurturing that it needs. That’s why this field is so critically important because a mom or a family needs support, no one can parent in a vacuum. And if someone has gone through various levels of postpartum depression or other adverse experiences that impede their ability to parent in a healthy manner for their baby.

Babies, unfortunately, they don’t really wait. You know, they grow every day. But they are incredibly resilient. And in the families that I work with, I often explain that you meet your child where they are. There’s no such thing as a perfect parent, we all make mistakes. And whatever the situation is, if you are able to get some kind of support, like if it’s postpartum, they have the amazing Postpartum Support International, that’s doing some amazing work around the country for not just mothers, but they have family groups, they have groups for fathers, they have LGBQT groups, different cultural groups.

Because, you know, you could have one vision for how your family’s going to look when you’re getting ready to welcome a new baby or a child into your family, and it may not turn out that way. So there are many different groups that I try to guide parents to. If I’m not mistaken, there’s probably infant mental health specialists and organizations in almost every state in the country. And many times those resources are free of charge.

And then if you ask, How does that affect the baby? You can only hope that there could be someone there, even if it can’t be the mother or the father, that it could be someone who could still give that infant a nurturing experience until the parent is ready. And when the parent is ready to create the bond, it’s still going to continue to have a major effect on the child’s life. If it can be in utero, if it can be from day one, that’s fantastic, but it might not be until age three.

I tell parents, you do the best that you can and if you’re trying to strive to get better, then a child’s brain is incredibly resilient and flexible. So it is not to think that just because there’s extenuating circumstances, that Is my baby just lost if I can’t provide this slow, nurturing, comforting? No. I would encourage parents to try to get support and resources. And in the world of infant mental health, we have something called prevention and promotion because of course if we can help offset some of those challenges, it’s going to be better for the baby and it’s going to be better for the parenting journey. So earlier is always helpful. Not always possible, but wherever you get the help at whatever time, it’s about the health and wellbeing of both the adult, of the caregiver, and the baby.

Janet Lansbury: That’s very helpful. So let’s say, in my situation where I had a lot of dark moods during the pregnancy, but then once I had my baby, I actually felt really guilty about the dark moods because he was just so vulnerable and adorable and, you know, there was no way I was not going to love him. He had a lot of crying, whatever that was. Colic, I don’t know if it was his digestive system. Not during the day, but in the night he would have lots and lots of crying and I tried a lot of things, a chiropractor, my diet, all of these things.

But I sometimes wonder if, do babies express those feelings that they absorb from us in the womb or maybe in the early days after birth if we’re depressed? Are there different ways that babies express that and process it out of their system with us? Or is that just as variable as all the different types of children there are, with their different capacities? Or are there some themes? An adoption situation, maybe, where they had that loss and now they’re in this really positive situation though? Is there anything that that looks like that we could look out for? Or is it just very individual for each child?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: You know, I get asked that question a lot. And one of the reasons I chose developmental psychology is because my outlook on babies, it’s from a scientific perspective, yes, but it’s also from a holistic and a spiritual perspective. Babies do because of genetic makeup, right? And stress that’s internalized in different hormones that we absorb in our bodies and so does that then get passed to our babies in the womb? Or if it’s an adoptive baby, is that baby coming with a genetic pattern for its emotional framework? In a sense, yes, the science has shown that babies do come, in a sense, with a genetic blueprint. And that’s under the realm of biology, right? But then there’s nurture. And the research shows nurture —which is, again, giving your baby the support it needs once you’re able to identify some of the issues— is stronger.

And so let’s say with you, your son may have had these issues. Or if it’s an adoptive child, they’re going to have some residuals because they had a birth mother at some point. But what I tell parents again is that the power of love is at the core and the center of babies. I know it sounds simple on one hand, but it does have the ability for recovery. If you’re the birth parent, if you have sad feelings that heighten your level of cortisol in your brain and the hormones or stress hormones, and your baby is born extra-irritable, it just seems incredibly tense and it can’t seem to regulate. There are steps in infant mental health in identifying what’s happening. Why is the baby tense? Is it muscle tone, is it irritable? So there are different screenings. And once those are identified, then we can come up with a plan to help a parent bring the stress level of the baby down.

If babies who’ve suffered, let’s say with alcohol syndrome, they recover. It takes work, but they recover and they begin to thrive. So yes, it’s an individual’s situation for both the adult and the baby, but just because it’s not an ideal situation doesn’t mean that the baby has to be quote unquote “stuck”. Does that make sense?

Janet Lansbury: It totally does, yeah. I love that.

You brought up cortisol. What should parents know about cortisol? I know there’s a lot of mixed advice put out there around if your baby cries or if your baby cries for too long or too often, that’s a dangerous thing because of the cortisol. What is the science on that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Cortisol is a stress hormone. We have it, it’s in our bodies, and it’s there for a reason. It’s kind of a measuring stick and it helps to regulate other functions in our bodies. I agree with you that parents don’t quite understand about cortisol and crying in particular. But for babies, crying is healthy. It’s a way to express emotions. The challenge is understanding, where is it coming from? If all the basic needs have been met, sometimes there’s not going to be anything that you can do because the infant is also sometimes trying to regulate itself. However, as a parent, if you feel that, okay, I’ve done everything and my baby is inconsolable, then I would say call your pediatrician to make sure that there’s not anything going on internally. But crying in and of itself, again, once all of the babies’ needs have been met…

And sometimes parents aren’t quite sure as to, When should I hold my baby? Should I rock them? Should I do this, should I do that? To keep them from crying, you have to try to help the baby to regulate. And sometimes it’s taking your baby’s clothes off, warming up your hands. I’m a certified infant massage educator and what we do is called holding sacred space, speaking very quietly in your baby’s ear, looking at them in eye contact. I know you’re upset. I know it’s hard, but I am here for you. And same repeated soft motions that are rhythmic. Typically I found they work, bouncing and all of those things. If the baby is already overly stimulated, then bouncing them is sometimes only going to make it worse and then the crying becomes elevated. So the cortisol level in terms of stress has more to do with prolonged crying and not giving an infant acknowledgement or recognition that someone is there.

Janet Lansbury: And hopefully someone that can be as calm as possible, right? So we’re not adding to it with our own emotion for the baby to absorb.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: And you brought up an excellent point because when you know you’re stressed. In some of my parent-infant classes, I will say, It’s okay. Step over to the side, count to 10 or 20, take deep breaths. And I’ll give them a mindfulness exercise. And then come in. Because if you’re not regulated, it’s only going to add to the baby’s stress. If you’re stressed, then the baby’s going to be stressed. And if their baby’s not stressed, the baby will then become stressed. They basically mirror you and they mirror your emotional capacity.

Janet Lansbury: I love that you teach that in your classes. Can you talk a little about this tool that you’re developing? The FIOT, the Fisher Infant Observation Tool?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Called the FIOT, it’s been a baby of mine for the past 20 years. I was inspired by Magda’s work in talking about confidence and then there’s some other theorists that I researched that also talked about confidence, and Dr. Pikler. I was inspired and I wanted to look at confident behavior as an action verb.

So I looked at adult insecurity. They didn’t just start that way. We always go back into the world of infancy and early childhood. And so what I did was I studied insecurity and fear. Where is it rooted? What are the elements and the factors that contribute to confident and insecure behavioral patterns? And that is the FIOT. So it is a paper parent observation tool. But I created it to empower parents because for me I said, well it’s great in psychology and nurses and pediatricians, we get all these different screening tools and most of them are not culturally sensitive. So I created the FIOT.

Janet Lansbury: You created one that is.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I had some amazing mentors who I think are far more brilliant than I am and more experienced. And we did the research and looked at, what are the differences in parenting styles, the differences in how we see babies and what does that look like across various cultural groups? And how can we ultimately bring this into the hands of parents to empower them? So the goal is to empower parents. It’s not a measuring tool, it’s more of an identifier. If your baby scores a particular number, here are some strategies to help you at home.

So if your baby is starting to show some insecure behavioral patterns, this helps you to offset that behavior. So you don’t have to wait until your child is three to start to wonder, Why is my child so fearful? Other than separation anxiety and stranger anxiety, which are all typically developing behaviors. So the FIOT begins to identify what that looks like. And it has gone through two levels of scientific testing and it has very, very strong scores. We are now in the final phase. We’re constantly looking for funding and perhaps partners at some point, because now it’s ready to be taken around the country. It needs a larger sample population before it’s ready for publication. But ultimately that is the goal.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, you’re amazing.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: It’s been a long process.

Janet Lansbury: I mean, congratulations. Especially because it’s been a long process. So does this also help parents notice if there’s neurodivergence or other issues like that? Can they notice anything like that at the infant stage?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. Even though it is created for typically developing babies, people have asked me, would this be a tool if my child was on the autism spectrum? Just as an example. And what it has shown, because of the identifiers, so far is that it picks up on things that are not consistent, which in turn propels a parent to be able to wonder a lot sooner than later. And it has the chart, you know, typically developing should be doing this. And it also gives room for varying cultural groups. So how a particular culture, what their outlook is on parenting practices. It can be tweaked here and there to make room for that.

Janet Lansbury: It sounds like it might also do something that— this was one of my favorite gifts from Magda, she taught us to see this ourselves and help other parents see this. That it’s not just, My child isn’t doing this yet, it’s, But look what they are doing. They’re doing this. You didn’t realize that was a thing. Well guess what? It’s a thing. They’re sustaining attention on something. Or the way that they’re shifting their body. They’re maybe not rolling, but they’re preparing themselves to be able to do that, moving their head, extending themselves, turning on their side. You know, I love how we’re able to show parents in the classes and ease their mind that your baby’s really making some good progress here. Look at all the things they’re able to do that you never even thought meant anything.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. And the FIOT doesn’t make a comparison and it allows parents to, you know, you don’t take it just once, right? You could take it more than once. So to your point, it’s not as though you’re looking for anything. It’s really training parents on how to observe without judgment. It’s almost like writing in a diary. You know, if you’re anyone that’s trying to lose weight, you weigh yourself and then you might weigh yourself again two, three weeks later. Then if there’s a big enough difference, it gives you time to pause and possibly correct if you need to correct something. And so it’s really the awareness and the awareness early on would in turn help babies and toddlers before they get to preschool. So prior to the age of three, to be able to offset. So it’s the awareness, empowering parents and then allowing them to make their own informed decision. The FIOT will give parents the opportunity and the ability to identify their own baby’s cues.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. Well, I’m excited for this to come out. So keep going.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I will be sharing it at the World Association for Infant Mental Health in Dublin. I don’t share the tool, but I will be sharing different posters about the research and all of that.

Janet Lansbury: Wonderful. Well thank you so much for sharing so many wonderful tips and your perspective and insights. I really, really appreciate it. And I of course personally enjoy talking about one of my favorite topics with an Associate.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Yes. And if anyone wants to learn more about the FIOT, they could visit fiotbabiesconsulting.com.

Janet Lansbury: That’s F I O T babiesconsulting.com. Great. And is that where we can learn more about your work personally too?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: There are small-group classes, you know, similar to RIE classes, Resources for Infant Educators, but these classes deal with a lot of psychology, things that might come up for parents, as well as deepening cultural differences in how they see their children. So yes, there’s a whole series of components. The screening tool is just one of them.

Janet Lansbury: I want to take one of those classes. Maybe with my grandchild someday.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Listen Janet, when we get to the next level, you would be an honored guest.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, thank you. Good luck with all of this. I feel like you’re on your way to helping even more parents than you’ve already helped and more babies. A whole generation.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Thank you so much.

Janet Lansbury: Thank you.

You can learn more about Angela’s work and resources at: FIOTbabiesconsulting.com

And please check out some of my other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in.

Both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting. You can get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com and in audio at audible.com. And you can even get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the LINK in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Mental Health Starts in Infancy (with Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Janet’s guest Dr. Taniesha Burke is a researcher and parent coach who has extensively studied how parent-child intimacy works and what we can do to increase it. Dr. Burke and Janet discuss these findings and how we can apply them with our children and in all our relationships.

Transcript of “The Science of Intimacy With Our Kids (With Dr. Taniesha Burke)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today my guest is Dr. Taniesha Burke. She’s a scientist, a parenting coach, and a child development consultant. She’s also a parent herself, she has a teenage boy and two younger sons. So she really does know the struggles and challenges of raising a self-disciplined child while also keeping her center as an adult.

Taniesha began her journey to understanding parent-child dynamics as a researcher. She had the interest in studying all aspects of parenting that fostered healthy relationships and confident, resilient children, regardless of culture. Then the academic life, it wasn’t as fully rewarding as she’d hoped. So Dr. Burke became intrigued by the prospect of making her findings directly and readily available to the parents who needed it most.

I’m excited for her to share the results of her studies on parent-child intimacy with us today. How can we nurture a closer, more intimate, authentic, lifelong bond with our children? We’ll be discussing those details.

Hi, Taniesha. Welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Taniesha Burke: Thank you so much for having me, Janet.

Janet Lansbury: I’m such a fan of your work. I know that you’ve done a lot of research on families and in particular you did a study all about intimacy with parents and children. That’s kind of what I want to focus on talking about today. I would love for you to share about that study, maybe what struck you as surprising. And also the practical ways that parents can be more aware of creating intimacy with their children, because that’s something that we all want, is to have the closest bonds that we can with our children for life, right?

Taniesha Burke: Right. Yes. The parent-child relationship is a category of child development or relationships in general that is heavily studied. Oftentimes the studies focus on discipline— so whether you’re an authoritarian, authoritative, or permissive parent. And to some extent in early childhood, a lot of research looks at attachment. However, not so much of the research looks at intimacy. And that’s one of the things I found out when I was doing my doctoral studies. And I wanted on a personal level to find out that myself. What creates intimacy in the relationship and how is that expressed in different cultures?

So for example, if we look at the western individualistic societies such as North America, Western Europe, they would say intimacy is more of the child and the parent being physically affectionate, self-disclosure, and so on. And when you look at more collectivistic societies such as Asian, Chinese societies —Chinese culture in particular— you will notice that intimacy doesn’t normally express itself like that. It is more of the parents sacrificing their wants and needs for the child and making sure everything for the child is okay. So in every society or in every culture, in the parent-child relationship intimacy does exist, but it’s just that, depending on the culture, that expression might be a bit different. And that was very interesting for me.

Janet Lansbury: But were there standard aspects of creating intimacy that were aligned with all the different cultures? I mean, were there some classic ways of developing intimacy that everybody uses?

Taniesha Burke: Yes. Intimacy is all about co-creating meaning. So both of us have to be on the same level and page in the sense of we are creating this intimate or close interaction with each other. And throughout the cultures we do see it.

So my research looks specifically at the Caribbean Jamaican culture, and then some of the other research looks at— for example, we can compare with the Canadian cultures. And what we found was that, for example, intimacy comes up a lot with self-disclosure in the parent-child relationship. And that is very similar to an intimate partner relationship, where both the parents and the child feel really connected with each other when they share what is happening in their lives, things that the other person might not immediately expect or know about, but that the parent or the child is volunteering this part of their life. Especially the child sharing what is happening in school, sharing what is happening with their friends, sharing their thoughts and ideas about things without being prompted by the parent. A lot of parents realize this is a special moment to embrace and they do have a sense of closeness with their child.

Janet Lansbury: What are some of the ways that we can facilitate that happening? I know we all want our children to tell us right when they come home from school, What did you do today? And children don’t do that all the time, but what needs to happen? Obviously a lot of trust on the child’s part, right? That we’re not going to say, Oh, that’s terrible, you shouldn’t do that or say that. That kind of withholding of judgment from the parent, right? I mean, what are some things that we can do that make that more possible for children to share with us? We all want that.

Taniesha Burke: So let me go back to looking at the whole element of parent-child relationship, there are three domains. You have the authority domain that looks at everything regarding socialization. That is discipline, guiding the child so that they have the values and attitudes and behaviors of society. And then you have the attachment domain that looks at more of protection and security. Now, with the intimacy, if the authority domain where you have an authoritarian style of parenting where the parent says, Do as I say. What your thoughts and feelings are don’t matter to me. It is my rule. Everything that I say goes, it is difficult for that kind of self-disclosure to come about. So the best environment as it relates to authority or socialization is where the child is interacting with the parent regarding values and attitudes and socialization on an authoritative playing field where the parent, yes they are the authority figure, but they also consider the feelings, thoughts, and views of the child. So there has to be a sense of safety there.

And also with the attachment, that is also important. So are you a parent who is responsive to my needs? When I am in distress, do you tell me to just get over it and ignore me? Or are you responsive and find a way to comfort me? So if that kind of secure attachment is there, it makes self-disclosure a lot easier because the child already feels safe and secure with you to open up and share a side of their life that you wouldn’t necessarily find out about unless you go and investigate it yourself.

So it’s important to have an authoritative form of interaction in the socialization process and also in the attachment process, being there, responsive to the needs of the child in order to get them to feel comfortable to open up to you. So the three domains interact with each other.

Janet Lansbury: That makes a lot of sense. In the published paper that I read, the study that you did with the Jamaican parents, that culture is more authoritarian, right? In their discipline strategies.

Taniesha Burke: Yes.

Janet Lansbury: In that culture, did the children still find ways to disclose and did the parents notice that this felt like positive intimacy?

Taniesha Burke: Yes, they did. Interestingly, when we looked at specifically middle class families, there’s something that parents often talked about. So taking their children to school, they would be driving and the child is in the backseat, and that is when the child opens up. It’s something about not the face-to-face, the direct eye contact, that allows a child to feel comfortable to reveal what is in their mind, in their thoughts. It’s not so intimidating. Another thing is walking with the child, doing activities that do not present that face-to-face. So if there are interactions where there’s not so much intimidation or hierarchy, a child is more open or receptive to sharing what’s going on in their lives. And for parents, doing things together. So, running errands, doing chores at home, any sort of special project, that makes them feel close to their child.

And also when the child spontaneously gives them a hug or says, I love you mami, I love you papi. That makes the parents feel really close to that child during that interaction. So in the research, children did initiate a lot of intimate moments with their parents and they absolutely appreciated it. Some parents even thought about when they are ill or they’re not doing so well and the child is attentive to them, receptive. The child noticed that they might not be in high spirits or something is going on with them. And the child notices that and approaches them and says, What’s going on? Everything will be okay, mami, and gives them a hug. In those interactions, the parents feel really close to their child and describe that as an intimate moment.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. Well, I can definitely vouch for the driving thing because that works with my children. When I want them to talk to me about certain things, not making eye contact, that makes a lot of sense. I used a more authoritative approach, but what’s interesting to me also there though is that the children, even if they were raised more authoritarian and maybe there was fear involved in interactions with parents, which can be a result of that, where there’s intimidation and fear on the part of the child, the child still craved intimacy so much that they were able to take those risks to open up.

Taniesha Burke: Children need to feel that they matter. They need to have a sense of connection with their primary caregivers, whether it’s a parent or somebody in their extended family. So to feel that they matter, sometimes they do that initiation of intimacy. And if the parent is open and receptive to it, that satisfies the need for connection and a sense of belonging with the child. And the child will continue to make those initiations to continue that connection.

Janet Lansbury: And what about the parent disclosing? Obviously there are some things our child would probably not be comfortable with us disclosing to them. So what are the parameters for that? What kind of disclosure from parents creates more intimacy and trust between them, and what might be overwhelming or not as positive an experience for a child to hear? Maybe they feel too responsible for us in our issues or they feel like, Now I have to be the parent, or something like that. Right?

Taniesha Burke: So it’s the issue of parentification of the child, right? So if you as a parent are putting onto this child the sense that they need to take care of you, they’re responsible for your feelings and helping you to recover and all of that, that is not going to create an intimate moment for the child. So intimacy is where there’s a mutuality there that you are both experiencing a sense of positivity and enjoyment in interaction. Now if you’re dumping your stuff on your child, the child is not going to feel that sense of positivity and neutrality, right? So it is simply saying, You know, I had a rough day. Things didn’t work out so well at work. I’m just trying to figure out things, I’m just feeling a little bit overwhelmed. Just sharing your feelings, that things aren’t perfect or I made a mistake. But without going into the details and the nitty gritty of what is really happening. Just showing your child that I am also human. I’m not always perfect at it all the time. Things happen and I’m trying to sort it out, similar to how you might make a mistake and you’re trying to sort it out. That’s what’s going on with me. And the parents have responded to say the child says, Everything will be okay. Can I give you a hug?

A parent mentioned that one day she went to work and when she opened her bag, her child actually left her a note to say that she was going to have a good day at work, because she was just having troubles at work. And she just said, You know, work is a little bit tough for me now and I’m trying to figure out things. And as a way of connecting, her daughter actually left a note in her bag that surprised her the next day when she went to work and saw this beautiful note that says everything is going to be okay. So it’s not going into the woods of what is going on, but just saying, I’m trying to solve some things. I’ve probably made some mistakes, trying to figure out how I’m going to solve this, and so on. That gives the child an idea that you are human, you struggle with things as well, but without giving them the burden of trying to solve it for you.

Janet Lansbury: Right. Oh, I love that story about the note that child put in the handbag.

Taniesha Burke: Yeah, that was absolutely beautiful that she opened her bag and that her daughter left a note there to say she’s going to have a good day at work. So it’s those little things, that you can see that children, they take the initiative and if they value their relationship with you, they will do little things to communicate to you that you matter to them as well. It’s not only them saying, Do I matter to you mami or papi? But they’re doing things to say, You matter to me and I’m going to show you by doing these little things.

Parents have expressed as well that children bought things for them. They might buy a little candy or a little card. It’s not necessarily Mother’s Day or Father’s Day, just a random thing. Just to say, I thought of you when I was buying my thing and here’s a little thing from me. And for a lot of parents that for them was like, wow, this was more important than a birthday or Mother’s Day card or something like that. Because it is spontaneous, it’s not related to a fixed day of celebration.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. A hundred percent. Yeah, I totally can see that. Those children probably experienced similar outreach from the parents. I’ve done that with my children where you leave a note in their lunchbox or especially when my children went off to college, they got a note from me in their luggage, which was probably more for me than for them, to be honest. When children receive those kinds of gestures from us that we maybe initiate, then they’re more likely to reflect them back to us and reciprocate.

Taniesha Burke: Yes. So the relationship is reciprocal, right? What you give is what you get. The thing is when the child is experiencing frequent interactions of intimacy, they want to maintain that. So if you are giving it to them, whether it’s in a note or hug, watching TV with them, they want to maintain that kind of intimacy with you. So they will initiate and sometimes replicate what you have done with them.

Janet Lansbury: I think another benefit of the parent disclosure is that if we can reflect back on feelings that our children are already noticing in us, maybe they can’t pinpoint what it is but they sense that we’re upset, and then to express that to them not only creates intimacy, but it’s a relief, right, for the child, that they know at least what it’s about?

Taniesha Burke: And it’s not about them, they’re not burdening you. They realize you have other things going on in your life that you’re trying to solve. And it’s just to say, Yes, I am trying to work things out right now. I’m a bit distracted and everything will be okay. The important thing is don’t put it on your child to be responsible for your emotional wellbeing and to solve your problems for you.

Janet Lansbury: But that could be tempting too, sometimes. I think if we’re going through something or we’re mad at our partner who’s the other parent, as a child gets older, you kind of want to bring them into that and that’s obviously not going to feel good.

Taniesha Burke: Yes, that’s definitely not a good thing. Children do not appreciate it, especially when they’re teenagers. It makes them feel that they have to take a side, especially if it involves both parents, and it’s overwhelming for them to try and figure out how to help you as a parent. So it’s important not to parentify your child in that way. Best friend, a therapist, somebody else except your child.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, absolutely. I think even with siblings. Siblings Without Rivalry, I don’t know if you’ve read that book, but they pinpoint so many ideas that I would not have had without that book. Which is that even if you’re saying to your son or your daughter, Oh your sibling did this and it really bugs me, or You’re so much better at this than they are. And we feel like that kind of communication, that it’s creating more intimacy with our child, but what the child can pick up there is, Oh, there are a lot of comparisons and judgments going on here in this family. And I could be on the wrong end of that too.

Taniesha Burke: And that is why intimacy is really that you’re both co-creating this experience where you’re both benefiting from it. You both perceive that this is creating positivity, warmth in the interaction. But if one of you perceives that, This interaction is putting me in a position where I now have to choose, do I side with my sibling or do I side with my parent, that is not intimacy.

Janet Lansbury: Right. That’s a lot of pressure to put on a child.

What other things can we do as parents to help nourish the intimacy between us and our children?

Taniesha Burke: One of the things that parents did was they construct distinct relationships, meaning they had these one-on-one interactions. So if they had multiple children, they had, for example, let’s say on a Saturday morning they go to the bakery with this one particular child to get bread for the family. This child knows, This is my time with this parent. And they create that special bond with one-on-one, and they do that with each child. Set aside specific activities that they only did with that one child and the other sibling was not part of it. So they create this distinct relationship that the child can look forward to bonding with the parent one-on-one. And that’s how they created meaning and intimacy.

Also it’s enjoying things such as watching TV programs together, discussing the programs, for boys in particular going into their gaming world, asking them questions about their games. Or even if, especially as a mom you really don’t understand these sporting events, but kind of following what’s going on so you can have a discussion with them. My soon-to-be 17-year-old is a big Arsenal fan and what I’ve done is that I’ve followed people on Twitter who are part of this Arsenal world. And so every time Arsenal news comes up, sometimes I’ll initiate conversation. He’s like, Whoa, how did you know that mom? And he appreciates that I’m willing to continuously go into his world and share with him. So it is creating that opportunity to really knowing what matters to your child and educating yourself on it and initiating those conversations.

It’s communicating too that your child matters to you. Saying, I do appreciate when you helped me with this. I do appreciate how kind you are. You matter to me. It’s communicating that you are not just my child and you’re part of this family in general, but you are special to me in your unique way. And again, that ties into also, you do the self-disclosure and so on.

And integrating them into your lives. So, let’s look at that. If you are building a bookshelf, for example, at home it’s inviting your son or your daughter, they might not necessarily be hands-on building the bookshelf, but just sitting there talking with you, you showing them things and them being interested in it, create that sense of intimacy. So try to integrate them as much as possible into your lives.

I know sometimes as they become teenagers, parents might say, Oh they just want to hang out with their friends and not me so much. But the literature on teenagers do show that even though they crave this independence and need to be with their friends, they still want to know that they matter to their parents and they still want to know that their parents want to integrate them into their lives.

So things like family meals, how often do you have family meals with each other? That’s a time of intimacy and bonding as well because you are all at the table talking about what’s happening in your lives, what happened in the day, a few hours ago, and you’re connecting with each other over food and creating that bond. So those are some of the ways that parents can create intimacy. And the routines, especially with the little ones, the morning routines, the evening routines, all of those are ways that you can create intimacy. Cooking meals together, leisure activities, whether you’re doing sports, riding a bike around the community together. Those are ways you can create intimacy with your child.

Janet Lansbury: So doing projects together, sharing hobbies, and really what you’re talking about I think is that we’re seeing our child. Our child feels seen in their interests, that we care enough to look into it and research it a little bit and join them in that. That we really want to know and see them and that we think what they’re doing is interesting and cool. You know, what they’re interested in is interesting to us.

I noticed with my older children that now when we have time together, and especially if they’re confiding in me or something, I’m so tuned in. I’m like laser-focused because this is precious time, I realize that. And then because I’m tuned in, I remember all kinds of weird details that they tell me. So then later we’ll have another conversation and I’ll say, Oh yeah, that’s that person or that’s that thing. And they almost seem surprised sometimes that I remember. But it feels good, right? Because that means you were really listening, you made mental notes of this and that because it was important to you.

Taniesha Burke: One of the things, Janet, I want parents to consider is that when you take the initiative, when you really make intimacy a priority with your child, you will realize that the authority domain of discipline, the resistance to requests and so on, that is reduced significantly. So when children feel that sense of connection, feeling that they matter, have frequent intimate interactions with you, guess what? They’re more likely to comply, they’re more likely to work with you. They’re more likely to brainstorm and come up with solutions. So it all ties in. If you are having a lot of pushback from your child, ask, Am I creating enough intimate interaction with my child? Do they feel like they matter? Do they feel connected? Do they feel like they belong? Not just, Okay, I’m a member of the family, but do they deeply feel connected to us?

And if you think that’s not the case, what can you do? Maybe you need to really have that distinct relationship where you focus on one day of the week for one or two hours where you connect only with that child. Because once that intimacy is there, other issues solve themselves or they don’t occur as frequently.

Janet Lansbury: Are there ways that we might not realize that we’re interfering with intimacy between us and our children?

Taniesha Burke: Yes. So when we become overbearing with our authority, that is one thing that children, because they all have this need to protect their autonomy, they’re going to push back. Some will push back, some will recoil and become sneaky and withdrawn. But in general, when we become overbearing with the need for control of what they’re doing and how they’re doing things, that can severely reduce intimacy. And that is also tied into the issue of constant conflict. So if there’s a lot of power struggles, a lot of arguments, that is how we disrupt the intimate interaction with our child. So when we misuse our power on our children, that can significantly damage the relationship with them.

Janet Lansbury: One thing that your study didn’t show, but that I try to frame for parents because I actually totally believe in this and I’ve seen it in many ways with many different children: other people’s children, my children. And that is that you can actually be in conflict with your child in a way that is positive for intimacy, ultimately. And this is if you are sort of rising above the argument or power struggle and welcoming your child to fully disagree and be mad at you with the choices that you have to make as a parent, seeing the bigger picture and what the real needs are in the family and for that child. And that sometimes conflicts with what they want in the moment, right? So even that interaction, which doesn’t look so cozy on the outside, is very intimate. It really creates more trust because you can be yourself, you can be mad at me, you can be in conflict with me, you can have a totally different point of view. I welcome that. I’ve still been given this job to take care of you or take care of myself. This is what I’m deciding. But yeah, you get to feel how you want to feel. I’m not going to get mad at you for not liking my boundaries, or whatever it is.

Taniesha Burke: Actually what you shared just now, it’s something that came up in my colleague’s research, where part of the repairing of the relationship is where the parent and child actually talk about the source of the tension and try to find a solution to that tension. And it’s going through that difficult conversation of understanding why the tension has occurred or the conflict has occurred and what can we do together to solve it? That is how the intimacy is repaired in the relationship.

Janet Lansbury: I get that, yes. Because my natural tendency is avoid the conflict, pretend it’s not there, just go along with it. But then neither one of us feels seen and accepted for where we are. And so that bravery to get into it, like a mediator or relationship counselor would for adults, and to open up and say, This really hurt me. I didn’t like this. It does take you to a deeper level, right? So that makes sense to me.

Taniesha Burke: Yes. But it’s in that communication with your child and finding a solution and just being open and honest and also apologizing that the intimacy is restored in the relationship.

Janet Lansbury: That’s beautiful. So helpful, I think.

Taniesha Burke: I think it’s important too because so many parents are so hellbent on, I am the authority figure, right? And I need to make sure the rules and the boundaries are whatever are set. Some parents fear that if they don’t do that, they’re going to have children who do not listen to authority, who are unruly, and so on. And so they might hold firm that as the authority figure, I have to be firm. However, the research is showing that the intimacy is really restored when you’re willing to be vulnerable and have that conversation about what is the source of the tension. I hear what you’re saying as the child, this is my stance as a parent, let’s collaborate and find a solution together.

Janet Lansbury: Wonderful. Well, before we finish, I definitely want you to talk about your beautiful parenting journal, The Parenting Journal: Key to Strengthening Your Parent-Child Relationship. You say it’s a journal for parents, guardians, or caregivers who desire to improve or maintain a healthy relationship with their children. It’s a simple idea, but the way that you executed it, it’s so insightful. You have prompts that help us to reflect on where we are each day, or each day that we decide we have time to log in it, about where we are with self-compassion, what we want to do more of, what we want to do less of, what’s going on between us and our children.

And it reminded me of how I have the privilege of receiving a lot of letters from parents, messages about their issues. And it’s interesting, at least about one in five of them, the parents will say at the end, sometimes it’s paragraphs and paragraphs and paragraphs, right? And then at the end they say, Even if you don’t answer, which you probably won’t, this really helped me. Writing this to you has already helped me so much to digest what’s going on and think about it and figure it out. So that’s what I thought of when I saw your journal. I thought, Oh this is brilliant.

Taniesha Burke: So the idea of the journal came from my research after interviewing all the parents and there are certain themes that came up. You know, in academia a lot of times the research is hidden behind the paywall of the library where you have to try and get access to the publication. And I thought, Why not create a journal based on the conversations I’ve had with so many parents?

One of the objectives too is with the journal, when you start to record what was good about the day, what was good about being a parent, what was challenging about being a parent. When you start going through that over a number of days and weeks, you start to see the pattern. You start to have a better sense of awareness that I need to be a little bit more reflective. I need to be a little bit more patient. Or you have changed some things and you’re now able to see the changes in your relationship with your child or even your child’s behavior overall. So it’s a day-to-day thing, whether or not you are working with a therapist or you just want to keep something for yourself to be accountable to yourself and to really improve your relationship. This is what the journal helps you to do.

And on a long term, when your child is 21, 25, or even when your child is an adult and becomes a parent, you can hand your journals to them, right? And say, This is what I documented when I was parenting you. These are some of the challenges I experienced. These are some of the solutions that I came up with. You might experience the same thing. You might feel overwhelmed. In case that ever happens to you, here’s my journal just to show that this is nothing that you can go through alone. So it’s in the immediacy of building the relationship. But I want parents to also keep it as a long-term gift to hand over to their children when they’re adults as well to say, This is what parenting you was like, these are my struggles or were my struggles and you might get some insights from the things I experienced while I was parenting you.

Janet Lansbury: What an incredible tool and gift to give.

Taniesha Burke: Thank you.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. Well you’ve shared so much information and insight and research and really helpful ideas and thank you so much.

Taniesha Burke: Yes, thank you so much as well. And before we go, I’d just ask parents as you listen to this podcast and at the end of the podcast, ask yourself, How are you with your children? Do you give them enough intimate interactions and what are those interactions? And start to also evaluate, How does my child, or how do my children initiate intimate interactions with me? Paying attention and being more intentional. So maybe you haven’t been initiating enough and it’s now time for you to really step that up and you will see that it benefits all aspects of the relationship in the end.

Janet Lansbury: Absolutely. And you can change things with children at any time and they are very willing because that’s what they want most of all.

Taniesha Burke: Yes. They want to feel they matter, right? They want to feel connected to you. So they will change along with you as well.

Janet Lansbury: Well that’s a beautiful way to end. Thank you so much again. And, everybody go check out Dr. Burke’s website, it’s TanieshaBurke.com. And you’ll find that she has some wonderful resources and coaching. You can sign up for that and enjoy her journal and everything else that she has to offer.

Taniesha Burke: Yes. And thank you so much for having me, Janet, to really speak about intimacy. It’s an important topic and an important part of our journey as parents with our children. You know, so many memories can be created that we will share years to come with our children just by being proactive in creating intimacy in the relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. We’ll never regret anything that we did to enable more intimacy between us because we will be reaping those benefits for life.

Taniesha Burke: Definitely. Take care.

Janet Lansbury: Okay, you too. Bye-bye.

Taniesha Burke: Bye.

Taniesha’s website is: https://www.tanieshaburke.com

Also, please checkout some of my other podcasts at janetlansbury.com. website. They’re all indexed by subject and category so you should be able to find whatever topic you’re interested in. And remember I have books on audio at Audible.com, No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can also get them in paperback at Amazon and an ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Apple.com.

And please know that wherever you are on your parenting journey, with boundaries, especially, I created the No Bad Kids Course to empower you to take your parenting to the next level.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this. 

The post The Science of Intimacy With Our Kids (With Dr. Taniesha Burke) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Preparing Our Children to Be Emotionally Healthy Teens (With Phinnah Chichi)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m welcoming a special guest to Unruffled, Phinnah Chichi. Phinnah is a parenting teens consultant and coach, and a life coach for teens and young adults. Her organization, Parenting Teens Solutions Limited, is dedicated to educating, empowering, encouraging, and equipping parents with the right tools to help themselves and their teens as they navigate through the changes and challenges of the adolescent journey. She’s also the host of the Parenting Teens Solutions Podcast and an Amazon bestselling author. Her most recent book is The Parenting Teens Navigation System.

I wanted to bring Phinnah to the podcast so that she could share all her wisdom for us as parents of younger children, to prepare us for the changes that happen in the teen years. And I think you’ll find that much of the work that you’re already doing is leading you in a positive direction.

Welcome, Phinnah. Thank you so much for being here.

Phinnah Chichi: I’m so pleased to be here. I’m excited.

Janet Lansbury: Me too. I just finished your book. You have this very comforting, encouraging voice that comes through your work. I know it’s in your podcast as well and in your courses, but I really felt it in your book. I felt the way that you talk to teens and children through the way that you were talking to us as parents in the book. And, you know, it’s respectful, it’s really honest, with a lot of empathy and care. And clearly you’re passionate about your work.

Phinnah Chichi: Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: I thought we could start by maybe bringing up the elephant in the room, which is this recent survey that came out, and it actually reflects a lot of recent studies that I’ve seen. That there’s this sharp rise in sadness and hopelessness, depression, and even suicide rates with, I guess it’s mostly girls and also lesbian, gay, and bisexual children and teens. What is your take on all this? Why do you think this is happening and what can we do to help our children in the early years so that they can manage the ups and downs of the teen years?

Phinnah Chichi: I think what’s happened over the years, you know, we’ve been hearing a lot, because I do a lot of coaching with young people, we’ve been hearing a lot about anxiety, depression. That’s all kind of been floating around. But I think something happened after Covid or something happened during Covid that then just made it worse. And there was an interruption in the social development of young people, their interaction with their friends. That is a very essential part of their growth. And what Covid did was just interrupt it. There was uncertainty. They’re not feeling safe. Parents as well, we didn’t even know what to do in the midst of all of that. So that was another contributing factor to it.

More than that, or just even away from that, we have issues with faulty thinking amongst young people, especially with teenagers, especially with girls. You know, teenagers are very quick to judge themselves, criticize themselves, and to speak very negatively about themselves. I have situations where I introduce affirmations to teenagers and I say, “Okay, you know what? Let’s start with saying, ‘I’m amazing.’” They go, “No, Phinnah, I can’t say that because I’m lying. I’m not amazing.” So there’s a lot of faulty thinking that’s happening within teenagers. They’ll be comparing themselves. Social media is not doing them a favor as well in that aspect. So they compare themselves. They think of themselves as, you know, worse than they actually are. And there’s no counteracting. Parents are not aware of it, so parents are not there to then give them the actual positive words to then use. So a lot of teenagers are thinking very badly about themselves.

I’ll give you an example. They might call a friend and a friend is busy, the friend doesn’t call them back in that second. Immediately, many teenagers will think, Oh, that friend does not like me anymore. Oh, there must be something I’ve done wrong. So they think of the worst-case scenario in those kind of situations. And you can just imagine that just building up, as time just goes on, it keeps building up. More and more negative thoughts coming through, coming through. And then it gets to a point where it’s uncontrollable. If you look at depression, if you look at suicidal thoughts, if you look at all that, a lot of it is based from faulty thinking. And this faulty thinking and these things that are not caught on time.

And then sometimes as parents as well, if we’re being quite strict on our children, like really, you know, down on the rules, down on the boundaries, you know, just being over-strict, it’s reaffirming those negative thoughts that our children have. And again, unfortunately we don’t even get to know that because they don’t tell us that in the moment.

Janet Lansbury: Right.

Phinnah Chichi: Unless we are really actively listening to them, unless we are paying so much attention. Can we find those loopholes? And sometimes what happens is that when parents then find those loopholes, the first thing parents will do is, “Oh, stop thinking that way.” That’s not going to help a teenager to stop thinking, that’s not the solution. We’re going to need to give our teenagers backup. Give them words to use, start to affirm them. You look for their strengths so that you keep on affirming them. The more they can hear the good things that they do, rather than the wrong things they’re doing, the better they can start to feel about themselves.

Janet Lansbury: Exactly.

Phinnah Chichi: A lot of times teenagers think, Well, there’s no point. I’m bad at this. I’m not good at this. I’m not this, I’m not that. And it’s almost as if the world is affirming those negative thoughts that they already have on the inside.

Janet Lansbury: Right. So they’re getting hooked into these stories about themselves.

Phinnah Chichi: Exactly. And it just goes on and on. They make up these stories based on the experiences they have around them. A friend disappoints them, a friend doesn’t call them, something happens, or a friend is hanging out with another friend. They start to make up all these stories about themselves.

Janet Lansbury: I think also, before we even validate, we’ve got to understand what’s giving them that impression, right? Is it because your friend didn’t call you back right away? Or, you know, I love how you always focus in your work on that active listening and how important that is. I work with parents on this in the early years, too. It takes us having to calm the reactive part of ourselves, calm that part that wants to fix it, that’s really uncomfortable that our child is feeling that way. Because by doing that, we’re shutting down the conversation instead of hearing what’s really going on. And having that openness and kind of saying less at first really helps. You also talk in your book about, it may not be the time in that moment to offer advice. I call it braving the silence, where we just reflect back, This is how you feel, ah. And not putting that fix on it that we all want to put on there. Or I do at least.

Phinnah Chichi: No, we all do. We always want to fix, because we’ve been helping them since they were young. It happens even with my 16-year-old. You know, during the Covid, she was really depressed. She just shut down. And as she would share with me –you know, sometimes– when she would share with me in tears, I’m tempted to fix the solution. Don’t think that way! But in my mind, I would tell myself, Okay, Phinnah, just shh shh, just be quiet. Just kind of listen, just listen. Just let her say everything. Even if what she’s saying does not make sense and you’re thinking, Wait, why is she thinking like this? Just let her say it all out and keep saying, I hear you. Thank you for sharing that with me. Thank you. Very uncomfortable because I want to help. I’m desperate to help.

Janet Lansbury: It’s a practice, it’s a constant practice that we have. And yeah, as I said, I believe in trying to start this as early as possible with young children too. And most of the parents listening here have younger children. And I so much wanted you on the podcast to help them stay on the track that I think I’m trying to help them be on. And to also see where maybe they need to even shift more as their children get older, and what to expect. And I remember when I had little ones– I have three that are all adults, young adults, now. How many do you have? You have four?

Phinnah Chichi: I have three.

Janet Lansbury: And your youngest is 16?

Phinnah Chichi: Yes, she’s 16.

Janet Lansbury: You’re a veteran of the teen years also.

Phinnah Chichi: Yes.

Janet Lansbury: When my kids were really young, I even thought a 10-year-old seemed really together and, you know, almost tough on the outside. But especially teenagers, I just had these images of them that they are kind of scary, these selfish people that won’t want to talk to you or won’t want to be open, that don’t need you anymore, maybe. And then when your child gets to that age, you realize, Whoa, they’re so vulnerable. I mean, it’s always the people with the harder shell on the outside, right, that are the most vulnerable. And that’s sort of what a teen is to me. You have to practice that seeing beyond to the person.

Phinnah Chichi: Mm-hmm.

Janet Lansbury: And that can be a challenge in the beginning because we can tend to, like you say in your book, see them as irresponsible, selfish, dependent on tech, disrespectful, always moody, lazy, badly behaved, don’t listen. And you suggest, divorce ourselves from these negative reports and claim better for your own teens.

Phinnah Chichi: Totally. It’s so important because if we don’t, then we actually talk to them like the labels that we call them. Just very unconsciously. And they know the labels that the world has on them. They know that adults think that they’re this way. And so they’re having every day to actually be defensive, fight off those labels. So they’re going through a lot as well.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. And what that does is, as you said, it makes this divide between us. It’s harder to connect, right? It’s harder to empathize because we’ve decided this is this whole other kind of person now. It’s not the same little baby that we had or the same little toddler that we had. It’s this other thing. And we have to combat it and you know, keep it in line.

Phinnah Chichi: Exactly. I always tell parents, think back to when we were teenagers and you’ll get a bit of more understanding to your teen when you can reflect on how you were as a teenager.

Janet Lansbury: I noticed just today that you have a course, I guess it’s for the children, you have a webinar about transitioning from primary to secondary school. And I was thinking, Would I have loved that! We call it middle school out here, but how painful and just so self-conscious and awful everything was, and everything felt such a big deal. And you know, This is me forever.

Phinnah Chichi: It’s a tough period for young people. That stage is very tough, very tough.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. I think there are a lot of similarities to the toddler years, which is more my specialty. And it’s even harsher because they kind of need to be so outer-directed in a lot of ways. You know, it’s healing for them to have those social interactions that are beyond us. That’s so important, but that could also be a source of their anxiety too. But they need that so much.

What do you think about this idea that teens need to keep secrets from us, you know, not share certain things, have more privacy and things like that. Do you feel like that’s valid?

Phinnah Chichi: Yeah, in a way. What I feel is I’m very aware and I’m very open to the fact that I may not know everything about my teenagers. And that’s fine with me. When I was growing up, I didn’t tell my mom everything. So I will think that yes, they have some things that they won’t tell me. But my belief is that the important things, I will get to know. And it’s okay for them to share, you know, little things with their own friends. My desire for them is to have the right people that they can talk to and it’s to help them to build that healthy friendship.

So one of the things that I do, and I always share this with my daughter is, A good friend, what are the qualities that you want in a good friend? And so we talk through that because for me, once I know that she’s surrounded with good friends, then whatever she shares with these friends, there will definitely be a healthy conversation going on. It won’t lead her astray. And she knows that I’m there if she needs to talk to me about main things. And we’re quite close because I’m very big on the relationship. I focus a lot on our relationship over the rules that we have in the home. Actually, I never call them rules, I just call them agreements that we have.

Janet Lansbury: I love that about you. It goes beyond connect before you correct. The whole thing is about connecting. Even when you’re giving advice or having boundaries or you want to help your child do something differently, it’s got to all be couched in this connection. And it’s great that you value that and your book definitely values that because that’s everything, right? That’s what we leave teenage years with, is a relationship.

Phinnah Chichi: Yes, exactly. I speak to a lot of young adults as well who are not in great relationships with their parents because their parents focused more on the rules, Go and study, Go and do this, rather than the actual relationship. So now you hear a lot of estrangements, parents and their children. The kids have moved away not really communicating with their parents or thinking back to what their parents said when they were younger. So all these things are things that now, for parents of younger children, we are always encouraging them to stay focused on the relationship. This is the time to build this relationship, before they become young adults. So that in the young adult stage you enjoy the relationship.

And I was talking about friendship because there’s lots of changes of friendship groups in the teenage years. And so knowing for themselves who is a good friend and then attracting themselves to people who have those qualities. Of course, they need to share those qualities with their friends as well. I tell teenagers that the qualities you love about a friend are the qualities you should be giving as well as a friend. And so teenagers being equipped with knowing the right kind of friends to have, it really is a game-changer for them. Because they go through the middle school years and the high school years with that healthy sense of belonging. A lot of times when you see teenagers who are going through depression, anxiety, if you really break it down, they’ve had some friendship issues. They’ve had some friends that have disappointed them. And you know, that sense of belonging has kind of been interrupted for them. And so they internalize it and they start to think more negatively about themselves. So friendships is another big key for parents of young children to start to talk about to their children before even their children become teenagers, because that’s one area that really puts them down a lot.

My daughter as well, she struggled with friendships in the first year, we call it here, year seven. She had a bit of issues with friends and that really, you know, put her in a state of mind that she didn’t really want. And we had to keep talking about that. And actually the key, as a parent, you hear about the things that maybe the friends are doing, is not to speak against the friends. Because a lot of times when we talk against their friends, they’re very defensive. Even if their friends are saying wrong things to them, they’re quite defensive and protective of their friends.

Janet Lansbury: Oh, that was one of the big lessons my oldest daughter gave me. I knew, because I had been practicing this since they were little, not to judge my child. Because that’s going to put this wedge between you and then they’re not going to share, they’re not going to open up to you. Even if we say, Oh, don’t cry, don’t cry, it’s okay, in a way that’s saying, You can’t share that with me, and You shouldn’t feel that way, and so there’s something wrong with you for feeling that way. So even those tiny things. So I’m very aware of that. But then, yeah, when she was navigating an issue with a friend and she was complaining to me about the friend and how the friend had done this really hurtful thing and I did say something against the friend and my daughter said, “Don’t judge my friends, ever.”

I learned from that and I’ve mostly been able to follow that now. But yeah, that’s a big one. Not only can we not judge them, but we can’t even judge the people that they’re sort of complaining about. And I remember reading about this a long time ago, that it’s that safety in numbers that they feel, and it is a balm for them, for all their kind of open sores that they walk around with as teens and this vulnerability and all the fears and everything: Well, I’ve got my friends. And that is a lot of validation for them and in a positive way, usually.

Phinnah Chichi: In a positive way, yes. And a sense of belonging.

So one of the things that I will encourage parents, especially, you know, your audience of parents of younger children, is to introduce affirmations. Having our children to start speaking positively about themselves. It actually prepares them for those years ahead where, as the teenage brain is thinking, Oh, I’m not good in this, I’m not good in that. Having, I call it a tank full of positive affirmations, which will then increase their positive emotions, will help them in those times when those negative thinking and thoughts come through. So building that habit. Sometimes when we leave it until their teenage years, teenagers are like, Oh no, do I really need to say that? Oh, is that really true? But I don’t feel that way. But starting at a younger age to just increase the positive things that they think about themselves, how they know themselves, positive affirmations, building up things that increase their positive emotions will help them in those 10 years.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, that makes sense. And then coming from us too, when we notice things, trying to remember to say, Wow, that was so patient of you to wait for me while I had to take care of your sibling or whatever, and, Thank you. Or, You figured that out all by yourself! Noticing all those things.

Phinnah Chichi: Yeah, the listening part is a big part as well. We talked about that earlier. But yeah, that’s a key part because, you know, I’ll hear young people tell me, “Oh, you know, my mom doesn’t love me or my dad doesn’t care about me.” And I’ll be like, “But did they say that?” “No, but just the fact that they didn’t listen to me the way they reacted when I said something, it just makes sense. Very obvious that they don’t love me.” So there are a lot of conclusions that our children make.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And we know the parent wasn’t intending that message at all.

Phinnah Chichi: Totally not, the parent wasn’t intending that. The parent didn’t even know that they’d made such a conclusion. We’ve got to listen to them very actively.

Janet Lansbury: I love in your book, and I wish I would’ve done this as a parent of teens, I love how you offered this “new teen conversation” to have. It’s this beautiful kind of rite of passage, a connecting, acknowledging speech or communication that you would give. And you gave an explicit example. Wow. I would’ve loved to have that as a teen and I wish I would’ve given that to my teens, although they did all right. They navigated it all pretty well because I think I had prepared them for emotional intelligence and our relationship has always been solid and I feel really grateful for that. But boy, just all that acknowledging of what a difficult time this is. Difficult, but also positive. But you mentioned all the challenges. Can you talk a little about that?

Phinnah Chichi: Yeah, that was a game changer. With my daughter, I just remember that the night before her birthday, she was a little bit down. I was thinking, It’s your birthday, we’re going to do lovely things tomorrow. Why was she down? So I just kind of offered her like, you know, “What’s going on? It’s your birthday tomorrow.” And she goes, “I’m worried.” And she opened up to me, she said, “I’m worried. I don’t know what kind of a teenager I’m going to be. I heard so many things about teenagers.” And so I came in, sat down, and I just kind of heard her, listened to her. And then I started, I said, “Do you mind if I share some things with you?” And she said, “Yeah, go for it.” And then I started to talk her through this. And it was the feedback she gave me that made me realize, she said, “Mom, thank you. I needed that.” So teenagers are worried about their teen years. She said, “I needed that and that’s really, really helped me.”

And I could see through the years, there’s some things, when she goes through some challenges, she will note it down that, Yeah, Mom did talk about that. So then what do I do about these challenges? Sometimes I tell her, “Okay, go think through it.” Because sometimes I want her to have the solutions rather than me solving it for her. But that made me realize that this is something that is so vital. And so I started sharing that as well with my sisters who then shared it with their own kids that were turning 13 and we found out that this was something, it really just opened their eyes and prepared them for the teen years. So yes, it worked because there’s validation in it.

I always tell teenagers to go out there and look for at least three to five values that you want to hold onto. And actually go Google about the values, you know, what are the kind of things that you need to do to actually showcase that you are practicing those values? So if you choose commitments, what are the kind of things you do in a day to show that you are committed? Just to get them also used to choosing the things for themselves. It’s not about parents choosing the values for them now that they’re teens. It’s about them taking the responsibility and choosing it and saying, You know what, this year I want to be more courageous, or This year I want to be more determined, or This year I want to be more hardworking. They get to choose it and they get to be accountable for it. So it’s definitely been something that has helped lots of teenagers. So yeah, I’m so happy that I got that.

Janet Lansbury: And were you already working with parents and teens professionally?

Phinnah Chichi: Oh yes, yes, yes. I was already doing that. Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: So you were basing it on everything you knew about teens?

Phinnah Chichi: Everything I knew and everything I was practicing at the time. And the thing is, when I get these ideas and it works, I then share it with parents. Like, Okay, you know what, why don’t you try this? Why don’t you try that? But one thing I noticed about parents of new teenagers is that we come in with, I won’t call it more threatening, it’s more like, Now that you’re a teenager, don’t do this. Now that you’re a teenager, don’t do this, don’t do this, don’t do this. So there’s a lot of, don’t, don’t, don’t!

Janet Lansbury: All the things that we did, right?

Phinnah Chichi: Exactly. In the book I wrote about disempowering conversations and empowering conversations. So every time when we’re talking to teenagers about the things they shouldn’t do, don’t do this, don’t do this, don’t do this. It’s like, Okay, then what should they do? They don’t have the skills that they need. We need to actually empower them with the skills, rather than all the don’t dos, don’t dos.

Janet Lansbury: Exactly. And it reminded me of, one thing I work with parents is to prepare them, even with your toddler or your one-year-old, to just tell them in simple language what’s going to happen when they go to the doctor or go to a new situation of some kind and without putting any value judgements or this is going to be great or anything like that. Just saying, Oh, so this is what you can expect and this may happen and this part may hurt. You know, all the things. And how empowering that is for them because then they can come into the situation sort of knowing, which is a great feeling to have when you’re going into this scary new situation, right? Like the teen years. To know and to know, Oh, all these feelings that I’m having or that I might have are to be expected.

Phinnah Chichi: Exactly.

Janet Lansbury: What a gift that is.

Phinnah Chichi: Beautiful gift, beautiful gift. And it also helps them deal with uncertainty. They’re able to manage any kind of uncertainty because we’re being open. I love what you shared there because sometimes parents will think, Oh, but do they need to know all that? But it’s important for them to know. It actually increases their vocabulary, it increases their sense of self and their confidence about what they know. You know, they’re going to the doctors, they kind of know what to expect. Those are all the things that actually help to build a confident child. So that’s great. I love what you shared there. That’s great.

Janet Lansbury: And then they can actually even almost, maybe not look forward to all of the hurtful parts, but they can look forward to, Okay, how am I going to handle that? Because I know that might happen, but I can handle that. Underneath it all it’s like, I can, because this is par for the course. This is what everyone goes through. Gosh, I really wish I would’ve thought of that about the teen conversation. I mean, your book alone for that is worth it.

And also the teen success tips. I was so moved by these, I thought, I need these for myself. Like, for example, I wrote a couple of these down, so this is number three: “Do not base your expectations for today on what happened yesterday. Today is a totally new day and it can only be totally different if you expect it to be. Play your part today. Expect the best from yourself and do your very best. Remember that you’re amazing.” And, I love number five, too: “The key to failure is trying to please everyone. The key to success is doing the right thing, no matter what else others are doing. Today, choose success because you deserve it.” Yeah. I kind of get teared up reading some of these. Because I need them for myself. What a gift. Really.

Phinnah Chichi: Thank you. It was teenagers I used to work with first, years and years ago, and then I realized that I’ve got to talk to parents as well, through talking to teenagers. So yeah, I’ve got a big passion for them. I’m very passionate about teenagers.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, it’s a beautiful time. I mean, I feel that way about the toddler years and I feel like there’s a part of me emotionally that relates so much to that. But checking out your work and reading this book, it’s made me feel that in myself about the teen years. That I have those same yearnings, I have some of those same insecurities and needs and yeah, I feel like I’m still navigating some of this. And maybe it is just a life journey that just sort of comes on very harshly in those certain years. But it’s beautiful too.

Phinnah Chichi: It’s a beautiful time for them. Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: I also love in your book how you break everything down, your advice down, into what you call “codes” for relating to our children, giving them the boundaries they need. You call boundaries “agreements.” And these are parenting navigation codes: the helpful codes, the unhelpful codes, and then the mental health and wellbeing codes, which are for us, right? As parents. Because you’re not leaving us out here, and what we should do with teens. You remind us we cannot give what we don’t have. Yeah. So that’s obviously a really important part of this, that we can’t just be the parent that we want to be unless we fuel ourselves.

Phinnah Chichi: Totally. And those are practices that I do. These are things that I do myself. Because we can’t pour out from an empty cup, as they say. The priority so much amounts to take care of ourselves first. And then we have what to give to our children. We have the compassion, the empathy, the calmness, you know. So sometimes things can happen. And if you are not in a state of calm, if you’re not in a place where you’ve practiced self-control, then you won’t have the right tools to actually pass on to your children.

And children watch us. There’s a quote that says, “A lot of things are caught more than they’re taught.” You know, so they catch things from us. That positive energy that we have, that calmness and gentleness, that compassion that we have. But we have to take care of ourselves to be able to give that, that doesn’t just come out automatically. With all the things that are going on in the world today, self-care is so vital for every parent. It’s actually number one. And from that, you can then give yourself.

Janet Lansbury: Can you talk a little specifically about your recommendations for self-care?

Phinnah Chichi: Yes. One of my first things is gratitude. I fill out a gratitude journal. The main thing for me is in the mornings, I spend time meditating. If I spend time with myself, just get myself to a place of, Okay, what have I done? What do I need to do better? What do I need to do for today? Also, my expectations about my children, as well. I bring in, you know, in my thoughts, my expectation of my kids. Just wishing them well and also just staying positive about them, whatever it is that they’re doing. Just being positive about that. And so that’s how I start my mornings. I make sure that I do that. I take care of myself. I do my exercises, I’m trying to be more consistent with it. But those kind of things, they keep my mind very settled.

I’m very intentional about how I am when I go out there. Making sure that I’m kind, I’m compassionate, that I’m positive. I told someone this the other day, I said, I’m very allergic to negativity. I can’t deal with negativity, I’ll just walk away. So that positive energy that I intentionally equip myself with every day is what I take out when I go out, is what I take out when I talk to parents and talk to teenagers. Then in the evenings, I write in my journal, you know, what was good about today, what I could have done better. But I always end it with, I’m grateful for today. I’m just grateful. Pick one or two or three things that I’ve done today. I’m grateful. Like this podcast is going to be part of my things in my journal this evening.

Janet Lansbury: Aw, well, I hope it’s on the good list.

Phinnah Chichi: Oh yeah, totally on the good list.

Janet Lansbury: I’ve loved connecting with you. This has been really fun. And you know, I’m a new fan of yours, but I’m a definite fan.

I just want to share one more thing from your book, which is where you give this list about parenting teen quotes that will help guide you on your journey, A to Z. So B is “Believe in your teens.” This again, to me, starts from birth. Believing in your child as a basically capable person who’s very different from you. It’s not going to be a mini-you, it’s somebody else that we’re going to see unfold in all these different ways. And in the teen years, wow, you really see them branching out and it’s so, so fascinating. If you could see it that way and not be threatened, you know, be interested and be open to it. But I especially love Y, which is, “Remember your great example is not by being perfect. Your teens prefer You. The imperfect you, the growing you, the you who makes mistakes and apologizes. The you who listens to them. The you who is joyful and forgiving. The you who speaks to them with respect, they’re learning respect from you. The you who will never give up on them, no matter the mistakes they make.”

It’s a good letter.

Phinnah Chichi: I remember when I wrote that, I remember it was first thing in the morning. It just came up in my head and I just wrote it down so quickly. It’s a big one for me, yeah, it’s a big one. Because it puts us in that situation where we have to be so conscious about what we are doing as parents. We have to be very conscious because we are their great example. And that’s how we stay connected with them. That’s how our relationship with them, you know, blossoms and evolves. Just remembering that we are that good example to them. So it’s vital. It’s everything.

Janet Lansbury: Talking about your morning routine, what can parents do if they’re so busy? They have to go to work. They’ve got all these other maybe children or challenges going on. And what if they have hardly any time or energy for any of this? What should they focus on?

Phinnah Chichi: I would say they should make the time because it’s priority. And it doesn’t have to take long. It can even just be waking up about 10 minutes earlier than normal and just having that time for themselves. Even if it’s two or three words that they repeat to themselves every morning for five, 10 minutes or even five minutes, even probably over a cup of coffee. Just say something to yourself. It’s about what you tell yourself, because we want to keep on building those positive emotions. So prioritize that, create it, even if it’s five minutes to yourself. It could even be when you’re brushing, just say some things. I have some little affirmations on my mirror in the bathroom, so when I’m brushing I can just look at those words, you know, and just say some things to myself.

Again, what we’re trying to do is just build up those positive emotions. Because we’re going to need it throughout the day. Rather than give so much time to all the stresses out there in the world, let’s create some time. It’s priority. Create some time to look after you. It doesn’t have to be an hour. It can be a few minutes. You’ll find out that if you’re spending five minutes on it, because you then see the results of what’s going on. You’ll want to spend more time, just to really, really enjoy that space for yourself. Really good. And it helps you with how you then interact with people out there in the world, once you get up in the morning. Your relationships, your spouses, your friends, your work colleagues, you’re kind of in a better frame of mind because you’ve looked after you first. So it’s really key.

Janet Lansbury: I love it. I want to call you first thing in the morning.

I wanted to also mention to everyone that on March 24th, Phinnah’s going to be releasing her new online workshop. It’s a self-paced workshop called Parenting A New Teen. And that sounds wonderful. I’ve been talking a lot about Phinnah’s book, The Parenting Teens Navigation System. So you’ll definitely want to check that one out. And yeah, thank you so much again for sharing with us today and hanging out with me. I really appreciate it.

Phinnah Chichi: I appreciate it too. Thank you so much. I’ve enjoyed our conversation. As you said, we can go on and on.

Janet Lansbury: We could.

Phinnah Chichi: It’s been beautiful. Thank you so much. And thank you for what you do as well because it’s so important. Just toddler years, those early years, is actually key. So yeah, thank you so much for what you do and for the lives that you are transforming and changing as well. We appreciate you. Thank you.

Janet Lansbury: Thank you.

You can learn more about Phinnah and her work through her website, parentingteenssolutions.com. And I’ll also be linking to her book The Parenting Teens Navigation System in the show notes.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

I have good news! Finally, all in one place, you can get the whole picture on my respectful, empathic discipline approach. It’s right here at nobadkidscourse.com. The feedback from parents and professionals has been incredible and I’m so excited to share this with you!

The post Preparing Our Children to Be Emotionally Healthy Teens (With Phinnah Chichi) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of What To Do (and Not Do) When Kids Have Meltdowns, Tantrums, Strong Emotions

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be talking about a topic that I don’t think we could ever get too much support on: What do we do, what do we say, how should we act when our children are upset, maybe tantruming or having a meltdown? I talk a lot about this topic, but I don’t often describe in detail what we can actually say and do to help children share their feelings, process their feelings. Helping them develop emotional health, resilience, increasing the trust between us and the trust that children have for themselves as capable of handling their feelings and the ups and downs of life. I have three notes here that I’m going to be addressing, and then in the end, I’ll get into my specific recommendations.

Now, one really interesting thing about these notes is that they’re all from people who work with children professionally. They’re not from the parents of these children. So I thought that was interesting in itself. And these caregivers, and in one case an ER doctor, as often happens, all of them already have a sense of what they can do to improve these situations, and what isn’t working as well. So I’m mostly going to be offering my encouragement and agreement with their instincts. I just want them to feel even more confident about the direction that they sense they want to head in. And also in these notes are some really common ways that we all tend to respond that are not as helpful.

So here’s the first note:

I am a nanny to a 2.5-year-old who I’ve been with for two years. She is strong-willed and very articulate for her age.

For some context, she gets a lot of one-on-one attention from the adults in her life, because I am with her about 30 hours a week. Her mom works from home. Her dad is essentially retired, so he is around most of the time. And her grandparents are around a lot as well. While this amount of quality time is a huge blessing and a privilege in a world where most parents and caregivers are stretched so thin, there are times where I wonder if it is overwhelming for her, specifically in moments where her emotions are running really high.

For example, this week she had a really intense meltdown because she woke up from her nap and wanted her mom, but her mom was not home. At first she was just crying, but her dad heard her and came in the room, and after that, it really escalated. Both her dad and I are always calm and reassuring during meltdowns like this, but I came away from the situation wondering if, as a child, having two adults sitting next to you waiting for your emotions to subside feels like a lot of pressure.

The next day I asked her if she wants someone to stay with her when she is upset or if she wants to be alone, and she said she wants to be alone. I don’t take that statement as absolute fact, but everything that I was witnessing in the moment the day prior corroborates that idea that she truly wants space, even if it feels counterintuitive to us. I know you have a lot of experience working with kids while their parents are nearby. I wondered if you might have any thoughts on this or any specific advice.

So what a perceptive nanny this is. She saw how the child escalated and expressing her feelings seemed to last so much longer because of the way that she and the parent were there. I have the sense that they’re stopping everything and sort of making an event out of the child’s feelings. And while it’s wonderful to be available to the child—and that’s a common time that children sometimes have feelings. It’s that transition of waking up in the afternoon, it can be a rough one for some children. But then if people are sort of witnessing you like an audience, yes, it can extend the whole experience. And it can give the message to a child that this is a big deal to us. This is not just the normal passing through of feelings. Now we’re stopping everything and saying, This is an event. This is a situation that needs all this attention and care. That’s obviously very loving coming from the parents. But yes, sometimes we don’t realize that the message is that this isn’t just a normal, natural part of your day. This is a problem. This is, Whoa, I hope she’s okay, and we’re going to wait for her to feel better.

What I would do instead is definitely not just walk away and leave her alone. That can also give a message, the message that we are trying to avoid you when you feel this way. So I wouldn’t recommend that either. What I would recommend is keeping the flow of your afternoon as best you can, rather than getting stuck there. And maybe that means confident momentum, helping her up. Come on, let’s go. We’re going to go in now and help you get up because you’re having a rough one. So helping her to move forward and for you to move forward so you’re not just stuck waiting for her.

And at the same time, welcoming those feelings as you move her along. And if she doesn’t want to come, she doesn’t have to come. We’ll be right here waiting for you. As soon as you feel better. We’ll be getting your snack ready. Whatever it is that you would do next, just invite her to come along while you acknowledge, Oh, it’s so hard to get up out of bed sometimes. Waking up, yeah, you have feelings about that. Normalizing this.

And that not only helps our child, but it helps us not be exhausted by the ups and downs that a child has. Not have to think, Oh gosh, now we’ve got to wait this one out. And this problem, oh boy… Instead think, Yeah, you know what? It’s going to happen. It’s good for her to get it all out. We’re not going to rush that, at all. But we’re going to show her that life goes on, feeling however we feel in whatever state we’re in. But we’re not a stuck audience to this.

So I agree with this nanny. Not that she should be left alone, but that it doesn’t help this little girl to have people stuck there with her waiting for the emotions to subside. That is pressure. And then if this little girl said she wanted her mom and her mom wasn’t home, Oh, you wanted your mom, you’re stuck with us. Ah, that’s really hard. But we’re saying that from the understanding that she’s safe, it’s okay. It’s just a feeling, comes and goes.

Okay, here’s another one:

Hi,

I’m a childcare worker who uses positive discipline, discipline without shame. I was working with 15- to 32-month-olds, but I’m now working with three- to four-year-olds. Typically, how I would deal with crying would be to let it happen and trust the process and be there for them while not accommodating, which worked wonderfully.

Since switching age groups, the adults in the room seem to be a lot less okay with crying. Instead of letting it run its course, they put a huge emphasis on taking deep breaths, calming their body, etc. This calms them for a while, but then they become upset again within 10 minutes. With this age group, should I be helping move their emotions with these calming techniques? I guess to me it feels like they’re not getting a chance to really feel it and move through it. What is the right time to start teaching these skills? What would you do?

Thank you so much.

So again, we have a very insightful caregiver here. There is, I think, encouragement for this that’s around and about in parenting advice and childcare advice that there’s some kind of lesson-teaching that we need to actively give to children around their feelings. I don’t agree with that for the reasons that this childcare worker is noticing. Which is that instead of giving the message that your feelings are healthy and normal and they pass, we can give the message that this is something we have to work on with you to make it go away.

Obviously, that’s not what these teachers or caregivers are intending at all. But usually when we do this, the impulse to want to help children work through their feelings this way, it usually stems from our own discomfort with the situation. We want the child to feel better, and maybe we feel like we’re not doing our job if we’re allowing feelings to run their course. But we can still be there for the child while we move on and help with this other child, And you’re still with me. And maybe sometimes all the children are upset, And you’re also upset right now. You’re having a hard time since your parents left.

And I think this is also why people will sometimes say to me, Oh, I can’t possibly do this. I have more than one child, or, I’m a teacher, I can’t do this thing that you’re talking about. Because I think what they’re imagining is working each child through their feelings in this active manner. And young children especially have a lot of feelings, so if each time they express something, we have to do all this work around the experience, then yes, that would be impossibly overwhelming.

What I’m suggesting is passive acceptance that doesn’t use up our energy or stop us in our tracks. It’s a big difference. We can be there, we can acknowledge, without making this into an event or a problem that we have to fix, that we have to help our child through and do something active to make better. I know it’s really hard to be with children when they’re upset, but as much as possible, our comfortable presence, that’s what helps children through. That’s what teaches them through our modeling, through showing them this is a healthy, normal, acceptable state. This is nothing to fear, not a problem. We don’t feel good for a while, and then we feel better. And we’re here for you, the whole way through. We think it’s okay. We think it’s normal. That’s the message we want children to get.

And when we’re saying, We’ve got to breathe and we’ve got to do all this, we are turning it into, without meaning to, a scarier situation, an unnatural crisis, even. And again, if we really look at that in ourselves, what makes us want to do this? It’s like we’re not comfortable with our child in this space. Not that we’re ever going to be completely comfortable, but that’s the challenge. That’s the whole thing right there, that practice that we build on to let feelings be. To know that every time our child expresses something, they’re healing something, if we can allow it and be the safe presence. And sometimes it takes longer, sometimes it’s shorter. It’s not our process to do anything about, it’s really theirs.

So I totally agree with this childcare worker that what she’s seeing is not as helpful as what she was doing before with the younger ones. And children will learn. Again, they learn through our message of acceptance and the way we’re perceiving the feelings as normal and healthy and a passing thing that we trust. That’s how children learn to move through the feelings better. Simply through that example that we’re giving them. I think a lot of times too, that when we’re in a field of teaching, or even, you know, as a parent, we feel like we’re supposed to teach, right? And that means we’ve got to do something. Instead of actually facilitating an environment for learning. And this goes with every kind of thing that children learn, especially in the early years, this precious window of time. We want to work more on facilitating the right environment instead of teaching.

Because children are such expert learners, they’re learning all the time, but they’re not always learning what we want them to learn. That’s Magda Gerber’s famous quote, “Be careful what you teach. It might interfere with what they are learning.” So we think we’re teaching how to work through emotions, how to relax yourself, how to take deep breaths. But what we might be teaching instead is, Ooh, this is kind of scary and not normal and you’ve got to help yourself to feel better. It’s not okay to be in that sad place or that angry place. You’ve got to get on with it and get past it.

Okay, so here’s one more question. This one, I think this came on Instagram and I responded to it. Here it is:

May I ask a question? I work as a doctor in the pediatric ER and often have to do painful procedures on children. I always try to be kind and truthful with them about what’s going to happen. I use numbing agents plus sedation and avoid restraining them as much as possible, etc.

However, understandably, they will still usually become very upset both during and following the procedure. When this happens, I can see that not only are they distressed by the situation, but that their trust in me and nurses/doctors in general has been compromised. I’m not sure of the best way to address these two issues. Often I will say, “I’m so sorry you’re upset,” or “I’m so sorry that hurt you.” But I wonder if there’s a better way of approaching this in terms of validating their feelings and reassuring them. Would you have any suggestions?

Thank you so much.

Okay, so she really nails something so important here. Trust. This is one of the results that we want when children are upset, right? We want them to trust in us, trust in themselves, trust that their feelings are okay and healthy. So here’s what I responded to this doctor:

I would be completely honest and open about every detail. Sounds like you are already in this direction, but maybe even more. This part sometimes hurts, stings. And then you will actually build trust if you can, in the moment, welcome whatever the child shares. So not only, “I’m sorry that hurt,” which is great, but also being there receiving in the moment. Ah, you didn’t like that part. That was uncomfortable, wasn’t it? Whatever they’re giving you and what it’s related to, if you know. In other words, you’re not only apologizing for and commenting on the feelings, you’re welcoming them as they come.

And if a child is too upset to hear, just be in that welcoming, accepting place. Nodding your head a little, looking at them with empathy but not sadness, obviously. Ah, I know. That one can be especially uncomfortable, you didn’t like that. If it’s a situation where the parent isn’t there, I might say, Ah, I bet you wish your mom was here. You’ll see her soon. But it’s hard not to have her here right now with you. In other words, saying all those truths that most of us are afraid to say. We fear it makes matters worse, but it actually does the opposite.

And she wrote back:

Hi Janet, thank you so much for your reply. I appreciate it so much. I could definitely adjust what I’m doing based on your advice, as I am guilty of taking kids’ emotions on board too much and showing that in my face, i.e. looking sad. Thank you again for everything that you do. Kind regards.

And I wrote back: Not guilty! Totally normal. And it’s great that you are aware.

So yeah, when we’re not the parent, we can still get our buttons pushed. It can still be so hard for us, as in the case with this ER doctor and also the caregivers that were trying to get the children to breathe and work through their feelings. As parents, it’s even harder for us because we’re so deeply invested in and connected with our child.

So this is what I recommend doing: Working on not letting our discomfort take prominence over our child’s. And really trusting in letting feelings be, that it’s safe, that feelings come and go. And then when we feel ourselves reacting with fear or anger, breathe. I mean, we don’t have to take this unnaturally deep breath. Just feel yourself breathing through normally. Center yourself in your body. For some people, it helps putting their hand to their chest or feeling their feet on the floor. For me, I love using imagery: My hero suit that I would put on when my children were upset or I knew I was going to be upsetting them. It has a shield that deflects my child’s feelings, so, as a sensitive person, I don’t take them in and absorb them. Or I’d imagine I’m a therapist welcoming those feelings to be shared, seeing how positive it is that a child does this, that any person does this. Or being that anchor in the waves, just letting those waves pass by. Not trying to stop them, knowing they’re right, they’re what should be, and that they will subside.

But what has helped me and those I’ve worked with most of all is connecting with this perspective: Feelings are healing if we let them be. This is not a problem to fix, but a passing state my child is in, and this is the healthiest thing for them to be doing right now. And I’m being the greatest parent or teacher or grandparent or caregiver by allowing and supporting this.

And in terms of saying something, I wouldn’t say anything in the beginning when I’m first working on this. Because often those words we want to say are going to come from that place that’s not comfortable in us or that’s trying to achieve something. And the only thing we want to achieve here is demonstrating how safe this is, how acceptable the situation is. So that’s usually better done, at least in the beginning when we’re kind of transitioning into this way of seeing and being. It’s better to just let your shoulders drop, finding that exhale in yourself, and if your child makes eye contact, just nod your head.

And then later, when you are more practiced at this, sometimes words will come out that are always going to be in agreement with what your child is saying, agreement with their right to say it. So whatever they say, you acknowledge, Ah, you didn’t like that, or Oh, you wanted to do that thing that I wouldn’t let you do, or You think I’m the worst mom, it feels like everything’s wrong right now. Just mirroring what they’re saying. And try not to talk for any other reason. If you’re coming from that place of overall acceptance, let that be your guide. So if there’s something you need to do or a place you need to help your child move to, do that while still being in that same mode. So comfortable that I can pick you up out of this situation while you’re upset, I’m not mad at you, I’m not pushing back on this. I can be that hero helping you through.

And then I think it’s important to really focus in on our goals overall as we practice this. And I can’t say enough how profoundly trust between us is increased when we can meet our children’s feelings bravely with empathy or at least acceptance, rather than sympathy or fear or impatience, without stopping everything to cater to them. Being as comfortable as possible, an un-rushed presence. Not letting our own discomfort take prominence over theirs. Perceiving what our child feels as this healthy flow rather than a problem to fix or an ordeal to help them through.

I’ve witnessed the beauty of this hundreds of times with my own children at all ages. And believe me, it never gets easy, though it gets a whole lot clearer with experience that we’re doing the right thing. I’ve done this with children in my classes. And even with children that I just met in an in-home consultation, I see a result. It feels like I see how I’m going from being a stranger, in those cases, to becoming somebody who helps them feel a little safer, maybe, more seen, accepting them as they are. And often they’ll look at you with this kind of surprise, I don’t know, a little bit grateful too, maybe. These are the memories I draw upon every time I need to bolster myself to be this person for children and for all people the next time. So know that this is relationship-building. Really, the safety and trust that children feel with us is everything.

And we’re going to help children to process their feelings fully and completely when teaching them, through these experiences (the best way to learn, experientially!), this healthy attitude toward their feelings and regulation states, fostering emotional health. So we can do all of these things through just this one type of experience, letting the feelings be. I’m sure a lot of you listening already know all of this, because I do touch on these themes a whole lot. They’re so important. But I do feel like for myself, I could never get too much encouragement and too many reminders that this is the groove I want to be in. So, I really hope this helps.

And for a whole lot more help, if you haven’t done so already, please check out my No Bad Kids Master Course. I go into all these topics. Tantrums and meltdowns. What do we do when kids say words to us that are unkind? What’s driving all these behaviors that children have? And how we can effectively ease them, heal them. At the same time, building this incredible lifelong relationship of mutual respect and trust and enjoyment of each other. How we can enjoy our whole experience as a parent so much more. It’s all about the way we see. So I hope you’ll check out that course, it’s at nobadkidscourse.com, or you can also go through my website, janetlansbury.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

The post What To Do (and Not Do) When Kids Have Meltdowns, Tantrums, Strong Emotions appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Stuck in a Pattern of Frustration and Anger”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be sharing my response to an email from a parent who’s upset about what she feels is her deteriorating relationship with her almost three-year-old daughter. She feels like she spends most of their time together struggling to get her girl to cooperate or behave, and then, naturally, getting angry when she doesn’t. This parent really wants to find a healthier dynamic for their relationship.

Okay, here’s the email I received:

Hi, Janet. I have an almost three-year-old daughter and an almost three-month-old son. Since becoming pregnant and then having my son, my bandwidth for interacting with my daughter has lessened so much, which saddens me greatly. We used to have such a close relationship. And while I think we still do, it is tarnished with my lessened patience and losing my temper at times.

Today, for example, we went to the park. Leaving the park has become “a thing” now. It started with me losing my temper one time when she wouldn’t leave when I asked. Now it happens almost always. She runs away when I say we have to leave. I brace for it. Today I told her, “Bye, I’m leaving,” when she wouldn’t come. I did it out of anger and desperation. In hindsight, I realized that kind of threat is manipulative, hurtful, and maybe even scary for her. She was very overtired as it was. She sat down in the wood chips, crying and screaming.

She finally did come. I said, “You can hold my hand or go in the stroller.” As I’m writing this, I realize how much my angry emotion plays into all of this, and even maybe causes her behavior to deteriorate. Anyway, she sat down and wouldn’t walk. She wanted me to hold her. I told her I couldn’t. She said at one point she wanted the stroller, and then refused it. I was physically trying to restrain her into the stroller while she was shrieking. I felt absolutely terrible, I hate having to physically make her do something. It actually hurts me now that she’s fairly big. I ended up roughly pulling her along the grass to where we were going.

This was a low point in my parenting. I ended up crying, which I’m sure was very upsetting to her. It has happened before. A couple of times I told her, “I know you’re really upset that we have to leave,” but it didn’t help much. I was so upset, it was hard to focus on saying these things. I really don’t want to continue this way with my daughter, but once these patterns start, I find it so hard to change them. It also happened with diaper changing, but has improved since I stopped getting angry at her.

I just don’t know how to be calm and confident when I’m so frustrated. Any suggestions for what to do in the park situation and how to create a new pattern where I do not lose my marbles, and she actually complies in a reasonable time when I say we’re leaving? And then just random statements like, “Please don’t put stickers on the couch. You can put them on this, but not that.” I feel like I’m just constantly telling her to not do something. If she doesn’t stop, I usually tell her I will have to help her, but it just feels like I’m spending so much time on her back. No fun.

I know you have a million emails, so if I happen to hear anything back, I will be happily surprised. Thank you.

Okay, so I feel for this parent. This dynamic that she’s gotten into with her daughter, it’s actually pretty common. There are some elements that create this that I recommend this parent takes a look at and deals with at the cause. That’s always the most effective way to address children’s behavior. Just like with anything, we want to heal it at the cause, not just deal with it symptomatically. If we can address and heal what’s behind the behavior, that’s where we’ll see a change. And that’s very important to understand.

So in this situation, first of all, this little girl has a three-month-old sibling, and this tends to be an emotional crisis period for most children. It shows up in different ways for each child. They do have a lot of fear around this situation, around this change and what’s happened to their life. And usually it will need to be expressed by the child in the way that children do this, which is unfortunately through behavior, through limit pushing. And then when the parent is able to calmly and with, ideally, a lot of acceptance of the child’s feelings, push up against that and hold their boundaries, then the child is able to discharge the feelings, to release the feelings. And that could come out angrily. It could come out in a tantrum. It could come out in an overwhelmed flopping to the floor, crying, sadness. It can look a lot of different ways.

So the first thing I would say to this parent is, it sounds like she probably does understand that this is a big element to what’s going on and that she can expect her child to be pushing limits at this time. That is the healthy way that children get their feelings out. And those feelings ideally will feel safe for them to share, even when they show up in these most obnoxious ways. It’s not that we’re going to be joyful that our child is behaving this way and responding so unreasonably, just seeming not to listen, not to follow directions, pushing back at us. But we’re able to see this as a healthy dynamic, a typical dynamic, an expected dynamic, and understand our role in it, which is just to hold these limits and to accept the feelings. And see the feelings, see these desires just to stay at the park. And, like this mother said she did, acknowledging that.

But it sounds like the problem that this parent seems to already understand in herself is that she’s not helping her child to feel safe to land the feelings, because she is getting frustrated and angry when her daughter does these things. Now, there’s certainly nothing unusual or shameful about parents getting frustrated and angry with their children. We all do it, sometimes. But it’s important to understand that this actually creates more discomfort in our child. Therefore, it makes our job even harder because now we’re going to see that every time our child is uncomfortable, there’s going to be more of this kind of behavior because they need to release those feelings of discomfort and fear. So now we’re adding the fear that, from the child’s point of view, Not only do I feel so in a crisis that I’m doing these crazy, impulsive things, but my parents are angry with me. These people that I need to help me in these situations and see where I am and help me early, they’re rejecting me for this. They see me as wrong and bad, and yikes! What that does is it makes feelings that are already very scary and uncomfortable for a child, even more scary, even more overwhelming.

But on our end, the reasons we do get frustrated are that we have this different expectation than the one that will ultimately help us. We maybe have the expectation that our child should be able to leave the park, or our child should be able to not put stickers on the couch when they know they’re not supposed to. Because children are, certainly at three years old, intelligent enough not to do these things. They do understand what we want, so hey, why aren’t they doing it? Because they’re seeking, unconsciously, that boundary. They’re seeking that safe place to push up against so that they can land their feelings. And if we have that kind of outlook as a parent, that kind of perception of the situation, that expectation, that will help us to not get frustrated. There’s still nothing wrong with us if we do, but getting frustrated is perpetuating the problem. So it’s something to go for: a perception that helps us get less frustrated.

Then the other part of this is the way that we actually handle the behavior. It’s my sense that this mother may be waiting way too long to be physical with her child. She comments that she doesn’t like being physical, and yeah, that’s a problem that I hear often. And I really understand, especially if what we know of physicality from a parent was out of anger and frustration. That doesn’t feel good, right? But when we see all physicality as a problem, it really does get in the way, because caring for young children, they need this feeling that we can handle them, no matter what they throw at us. That we’re going to be able to somehow pick them up or get them out of those situations, and that we’re going to be able to help them do things that they’re not able to do. And, ideally, without losing our temper or being rough or being angry.

The way to do that is to first expect it on some level. Expect that there’s going to be this kind of behavior. If we’ve seen it in the past, if we know that our child is in a big transition, like the transition to a new sibling, we want to try to expect it and then see it at the outset when it’s starting. For example, with the stickers on the couch, I wouldn’t even say, “please don’t do that,” because I could see that my child is already doing something that my child knows I don’t want them to do. So instead of telling them something that they already know, I want to notice, Okay, they’re doing some funny business there, so I’m going to calmly make sure that this doesn’t happen. I go over to my child. Mm, you’ve got those stickers, I see. I’m not going to let you do that. And I’m already physically stopping my child right there. That physical limit-setting is what children crave, especially when there’s a baby involved who’s getting a lot of physical care, a lot of touch, a lot of holding and carrying. So for that reason as well, they feel the need for that.

And that’s why it’s so important for parents to perceive this, as much as possible, as positive. A positive, loving exchange when you’re actually doing something that, yes, it’s against your child’s will in that moment, but you’re doing it with love and kindness and confidence. You’re taking that little bear cub and you’re stopping those little paws from doing this or that. And you’re picking them up and taking them out of the park.

And, with the park, she says this has become “a thing.” So yes, see it coming. Anticipate, not in a negative, Oh, here we go again! way, but, Okay, my child’s struggling with this, so I’m going to help. And then go close when it’s time to leave. If possible, we don’t want to signal by saying, “Okay, it’s time to go!” when our child has shown this behavior of having difficulty leaving, because then we’re kind of signaling, All right, we’re going to enter this power struggle now! We’re going to go back to this routine that we’ve had up until now!

Toddlers that have babies at home or younger siblings or other reasons that they have strong feelings, maybe they’re in another kind of big transition, like they’ve just moved or they’re starting a new school or something’s happening with their parents’ relationship– they’re very likely not able to leave the park. It’s those little transitions that do them in. And, as this parent says, she realized her child was overtired. So yeah, it becomes impossible for them. But rather than putting your card out there for her to see, that it’s time to go, from afar, don’t say anything until you’re right up next to her. Okay, it’s time. It’s time for us to go. And now you’ll already have your hand on her shoulder or your arm around her back. Here we go. We’ve got to go now.

And then if you feel any resistance, you move right through it. Confident momentum. If possible, you pick her up, you help her into the stroller. The sooner you do it, the less likely that you’ll be facing a struggle in return. But even if there is a struggle, we want to still keep moving through it as best as we can. Yes, this can be hard sometimes with a bigger child, maybe it even hurts us. But every time we take one of these actions, we’re going to prevent more of this. So we’re actually improving this situation, healing it from happening again, by doing this messy thing. I know it’s not fun, and sometimes it’s not easy, you might get kicked or hit a little bit. But if we do the best we can to move through that, that’s going to save us from this happening a bunch of other times.

It’s going to take this out of becoming “a thing” into becoming a time when a parent puts their arm around you and moves you along with love. Seeing this as positive, seeing this as a loving exchange that our child wants to have with us, needs to have with us. That’s the key to not getting frustrated, not getting upset, not being too rough, or even anything remotely close to abusive. Is it forceful? Yes, forceful with love and kindness. It’s a loving act, and it’s a million times more loving than threatening that we’re going to leave or losing our temper or asking our child more than once, even. If we hear ourselves asking our child to do something or not do something more than once, then usually that means we’re already too late in physically following through with that limit.

But of course, we’re not going to be perfect at this. And, when we realize after the fact that it didn’t work or we weren’t at our best, we got angry, we yelled at our child, we did things we regret. It can be really helpful after this kind of situation, like after the park or whatever, when it didn’t go well, to consider with self-compassion, Huh? Where was I going there in my mind? Why did I get so upset? Exploring this in ourselves, with a lot of love and kindness towards ourselves. We’re all on a journey, and the goal is to make slow progress. Sometimes it’s going to be two steps forward, one step back, or one step forward, two steps back. But we can pat ourselves on the back if our goal is to continue moving forward.

So when this mother says that the little girl sat down and wouldn’t walk, ideally we would want to be there soon enough, and before we talk about leaving the park, so that she doesn’t have that time to sit down and get more set in that kind of power struggle. But if she does, I would still try to get in there right away, pick her up. And if the baby’s there, I would consider having the baby safe in a stroller and not be carrying the baby if that’s possible at that time. Because it can be really hard for a toddler to see the baby right up there next to you, and that’s going to make it more likely that she’s going to have a hard time in that exchange and need to express feelings around it. So just for ourselves, it’s easier if we can be physically available to our toddler, but I realize that’s not always possible. So if we’re not and we have a baby in a carrier, or we need to hold the baby, then just know that we have to be even more confident. And use what I call confident momentum: coming in early, ready to move, expecting that this might be an issue, getting that momentum going. It makes up for physical strength that we might not feel. And some parents have physical issues and they can’t pick their child up every time. Confidence makes up for a lot. When we have that motion going, we don’t need to use as much physical strength. Because we’re in the zone, we’re in this mode that we’re not mad at our child and we’re just going to help them. We’re going to make this happen.

So that’s how I would break this pattern. By being physical right away, by using confident momentum, and definitely not expecting that words are going to be enough. They’re just not. Our words don’t have that much power with a child that has reasons to want to dig their heels in. So I would say a lot less and expect to do more and do it a lot earlier. Not getting to that stage of telling her to do something, and then if she doesn’t stop, now I have to tell her, “I’m going to help you.” It will work better if she just helps her right away, without signaling it. And at this time in this child’s life, for whatever reason—in this case, there’s a good reason, the transition to the baby. But for whatever reason, she’s showing that she does need help right at the outset of these behaviors. And then this parent will see that she’s not going to be spending so much time on her daughter’s back. There may be periods where it feels like she’s constantly moving her daughter through or stopping her daughter from this or that, but it will all pass much sooner if she can move through with confidence as a leader. Perceiving this as loving, knowing that this is what children want. I hope that helps.

And there’s much more help on the way because … at last! I’ve created the No Bad Kids Master Course to give you all the tools and perspective you need to not only understand  and respond effectively to your children’s behavior but also build positive, respectful, relationships with them for life! Check out all the details at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Stuck in a Pattern of Frustration and Anger appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

In this week’s podcast, Janet breaks format slightly by sharing back-and-forth interactions she’s had with listeners and her reflections about these exchanges. In the first, a parent eloquently describes a revelation about his children’s challenging behaviors and how they can bring out his best self. The second exchange explores the nuances of navigating boundaries and the messages we unintentionally give children by walking on eggshells vs. welcoming their feelings. Janet connects these discussions by noting how they both express what putting love into action really means with our kids.

Exciting news: Janet’s “No Bad Kids Master Course” is available now at: NoBadKidsCourse Check it all out and receive an introductory discount!

Transcript of “Love Doesn’t Mean Walking on Eggshells”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be doing something completely different. I’m sharing some correspondence back and forth between me and some people that reached out to me. In one case, it’s a comment on Instagram that I decided to give a long, drawn-out answer to. And I’m sharing these in hope that they’ll clarify some things, get a little deeper into the nuances of some of the issues that we have as parents. And I guess also kind of to let you into my world a little bit. I must love my job a lot because, as busy as I’ve been lately, I still get certain comments or notes that I feel compelled to respond to, because I want to explain. I want to help people understand the view that I’m sharing. And I believe this episode will help you clarify your role with your children and frame boundaries, these things that are really hard for us to do sometimes, in the most positive manner.

Okay, so first I am going to read to you an email that I received. Here it is:

I’m a dad to an extremely impulsive four-and-a-half-year-old and an extremely sensitive two-year-old, with baby number three due in three months. So you can imagine we have an exhausting house at times. As I’ve been listening to your podcast, I’ve come to understand parenting in a new way and wanted to share it with you.

It goes like this: Everything my child does is a different way of asking me, What does love mean? Thinking about parenting this way has completely changed my perspective and given my parenting a purpose. What does love mean when it’s time to clean up, but I say no and keep playing? What does love mean when I’m sick and wake up crying at 3:00 a.m.? What does love mean when I can’t stop grabbing things off the counter? What does love mean when we lay in bed talking at night? What does love mean when you tell me not to hit the TV with a toy and I grin at you while doing it one more time? What does love mean when mommy has morning sickness, but I’m hyper, playful, and mischievous? What does love mean when I’m having a meltdown, when I scrape my knee, when my sibling takes my toy, when I’m scared of monsters, when I’m supposed to take a nap, but instead take out every single piece of clothing from my drawers and throw it on the floor— again? I know I’m not supposed to bang the kitchen cabinets open and closed, but what does love mean when I do it anyway? What if I do it when we’re being playful together or when you’re busy making dinner or when I’ve already just done something wrong? When you’re in the middle of disciplining my sibling, when I’m already feeling mad about something else? The list goes on.

I think this is such a beautiful way of looking at my interactions with my children. It’s also a huge responsibility knowing that everything I do is a different way of answering that question for my kids. How I handle it in the good and bad times, or when they’re acting up, will define what love means for them for the rest of their life. How do I handle it when I’m already stressed or impatient or frustrated or exhausted from work is defining what love means for them, and they’re listening carefully. So thank you for your wisdom and advice and guidance. It has put me in a position to be really intentional about how I handle the day-to-day moments with my kiddos. I’m not always perfect, of course, and then I get to show them what love means when I need to apologize.

Adam

Here’s what I wrote back to Adam:

Dear Adam,

I love this beautiful perspective. What a lucky family you have. I wish everyone understood discipline this way. Unfortunately, people might also think that love is spanking and other punishments to teach right and wrong, et cetera. You obviously don’t, but maybe there’s something you could add to this that would make that clearer. I have a quote from my book, “Boundaries are one of the highest forms of love,” and I believe that 100%. I’ve seen proof time and again. Again, your family is so blessed to have you.

And Adam wrote back:

Thank you for your feedback. It’s funny that you bring up the different answers to, What does love mean? That’s the double edged sword of parenting, right? My wife and I are defining what love means to our kiddos. It’s solely within our power to decide if the message they subconsciously internalize is: love is manipulation, intimidation, fear, and painful consequences. Or, love is patient, empathetic, grace-filled, and affirming. Our kiddos are going to get an answer to their question, whether we’re intentional about it or not. I can scream, spank, banish to a bedroom, and force the behavior I want, or I can connect, listen, guide, and still expect the behavior as I lead them with my hand on their back. The confident momentum you talk about a lot. Either way, I’m going to hold my boundary, whatever it is, but I’ve got to be okay with the picture of love I’m painting in my child’s mind. And you’re right, it is unfortunate that some parents do define love for their kids through spanking and punitive, arbitrary punishments, maybe unintentionally or maybe because they think they’re providing a good definition of love. But when my kiddos look for a spouse in 20ish short years, the person they pick will be a reflection of their internalized sense of what love means. I hope they have a healthy perspective by then.

To clear things up in my original message, I would add this paragraph: I can define love for my children one of three powerful ways. I can generally do nothing, be passive, inattentive, and permissive. I can lose my temper, scream, spank, intimidate, and manipulate. Or I can connect, attune, regulate, empathize, and guide. Our parents likely defined love for us in one of these ways. I know which definition of love I hope to embody for my kiddos.

So that was that exchange with Adam. What an amazing parent and person, right? So now I would like to share an exchange that I ended up having, spontaneously, on Instagram. A parent responded to last week’s episode, Weird, Worrying Behaviors That Our Child Keeps Repeating. So in that episode, I responded to notes from a few different parents, but the last one was from a parent whose daughter was turning four. She was going to have a birthday party, and the little girl had expressed that she would like to invite two of her good friends this time. I guess usually it’s been a family affair, just with relatives. But she offered that up and her parent seemed like she wasn’t that sure, but her daughter persisted, so she did go ahead and invite the friends. Then this happened. This parent says:

Tonight she’s been unsettled and unable to sleep. She’s called me into her room multiple times. She asked me if I could talk, so I laid in bed with her as she told me she no longer wanted the two girls to be invited to her party, that she wanted me to contact their parents and uninvite them. I just listened calmly as she told me in various ways that she’d like to take back the invitation. I know that she’s probably nervous and that this party is totally foreign to her. It’s probably scary anticipating something she doesn’t know anything about. No matter how much we plan, who can reliably prepare a four-year-old on what to expect? And I know it’ll be overwhelming with grandparents and family wanting to love on her. My question is, what do I do? Do I honor her feelings?

So that’s the gist of it. And my response was:

The key is to welcome your daughter’s understandably wound-up feelings, but not accommodate them, because that gives an unintended message: When you feel uncomfortable or in conflict, you need me to fix that for you. I don’t feel safe when you are upset and demanding. When in truth, these mixed feelings she’s having are a normal part of life. If she disinvites friends, she will likely regret that too. So the answer I recommend is to hold the boundaries while welcoming the feelings however she shares them. Something like, Ah, unfortunately, disinviting people isn’t an option because that’s hurtful and unkind. I hear you, though. It’s normal to change your mind or have second thoughts about a decision. You wish we could disinvite them. You wish they weren’t coming. But just reflecting back what she’s actually saying, not adding on.

And I went on to say:

The more solid you feel about this decision/boundary and the more confident you feel about allowing her to blast you about it, the sooner this will blow over. I can almost guarantee you she’ll be glad she had her friends there. But if you’re uncertain or go at this hoping to please her in the moment, this can become more about the two of you and something she needs to keep pushing and testing, even at the party. Hope that makes sense.

So I had written that back to this parent before sharing that exchange on my podcast last week, and when I did, the parent gave me a short note back:

Welcome them, not accommodate them. Such a great reminder. I appreciate you diving in and going into detail for me.

So that was that. So then on Instagram, another parent commented:

I love your work. I’ve listened to every single one of your podcasts at least once. And to say that your teachings have been invaluable is an understatement. However, for the first time ever, I actually disagreed with some of your advice today, and I’d be interested to hear your feedback.

It was regarding the young girl who was anxious at night because she had changed her mind about inviting a couple of friends to a birthday party. You emphasized a lot about not wanting to be unkind to the other children, but I’d be inclined to disagree. I think that at three years old, you can make a decision and then realize that it wasn’t the right decision. And if that results in feelings of anxiety, I think it’s our job to help ease that for our kids, even if that means uninviting some kids to a party. I am 100% for allowing kids to experience upset, disappointment, rejection, et cetera. But the thought of a three-year-old dreading her birthday party in order not to upset people doesn’t sit right with me, especially as I’m always trying to teach my children not to go against our guts to please others. I know it was mentioned that maybe she would have regretted it if she didn’t invite them, but I’m not certain that’s the case. My daughter is extremely sensitive, and if she had realized that she made a mistake by inviting her friends, I know 100% that, for whatever reason, she didn’t want them there. Hopefully I’ve explained this clearly.

I had this incredible urge to write her back. Instagram, to me, isn’t really conducive to these long conversations, but I couldn’t resist. So I said:

I’m so glad you shared this feedback with me. You really got me thinking, which I love. Here are some thoughts I have about that particular situation.

First, I took note of the fact that this wasn’t the parent’s agenda to invite the friends, but the daughter’s, and the daughter persisted in her request and decision: “This year, she expressed she’d like to invite two girls from her class. I said that sounded good, and we moved about our day. When it came time to fill out invitations, she mentioned the two girls from her class again. Again, I acknowledged and made sure to make them invitations. When I let her know that they RSVP’d yes over dinner tonight, she was excited.”

Then, as you noted, she changed her mind. But honestly, I never sensed dread at all, but anxiety, which is par for the course for a child anticipating their birthday party. To me, it sounded like she began focusing her nervousness on that one decision she had made, which is what children and all humans tend to do when we’re excited, anxious, whatever. We doubt ourselves, question everything, sometimes obsess on one specific thing. I do this. As this was something new for this child, inviting friends, it made a lot of sense to me that she might focus on questioning that aspect. I didn’t suggest that she would regret not inviting her friends, but that once she did and was happy about that at first and then later changed her mind, she might well regret disinviting them.

And that brings up the main point I want to make, and maybe where we are seeing this differently. Where would you draw a line? Where would the boundary be for you? If the friends were disinvited and then the girl regretted that and wanted to change her mind again, would you then re-invite them? What if she focused her anxiousness on a particular family member who was set to attend? Should they be disinvited? Or what if her nerves about the party made her want to call the whole thing off? Would that be a decision to leave up to her too? In other words, for me, this is an instance of a child needing help from an adult to navigate, i.e. set a boundary, around a decision that originally came completely from her.

I would trust that innocent voice that told her she’d enjoy sharing her birthday with her friends this year over the birthday nerves voice. I would not be concerned about disappointing her friends or upsetting them at all. My concern would be leaving a child high and dry when they have worked themselves up to a state that makes thoughtful decisions really, really hard. Children say a lot of things they don’t mean when they’re having strong feelings. My sense is that this child might be disappointed in herself at her birthday because she canceled the friends. And that’s where I would be protective and try to be the adult in the room. If she was coming from calm thoughtfulness when she said, I don’t think having my friends there is a good idea, that would be another story. But this is also about knowing our child, and I’m sure you know yours better than anyone.

Okay, so then this parent kindly replied back to me:

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply. This is also interesting to read and has made it much more clear in my mind the reasons you felt it’s so important for the boundary to be set. I loved what you said about hearing the child’s innocent voice over the birthday nerves voice, and that children say a lot of things they don’t mean when they’re having strong emotions. I’ve always realized this was the case when children were feeling angry or upset, but hadn’t considered that it would be the same when they were feeling anxious.

And then she added: P.S. Dreading was the wrong word for me to use.

So all of that exchange is on my Instagram page. And then, just in case, I decided to reach out again to ask that original parent of the soon-to-be four-year-old for an update on how the birthday went.

And the parent said:

Her party was great. She was thrilled to see her friends. She was actually disappointed one couldn’t make it due to the weather.

It’s also worth mentioning that following your simple advice, Welcome feelings, don’t accommodate them, has helped in so many other interactions with my now four-year-old. I didn’t realize that I was walking on eggshells a lot of the time, trying too hard to make her world positive and happy, which is both unrealistic and exhausting. I think within myself, I was afraid of conflict or calling her out, probably a reflection of having a mother that enjoyed conflict and calling me out. Whether we have a conflict or a meltdown or strong negative feelings, I repeat, Welcome, don’t accommodate, in my head. It’s become my mantra. In doing so, she has a clear leader, I have firm boundaries, and we both seem to communicate better. I feel a million times more confident. I think so many parents that follow respectful parenting have this blurry line of trying not to be a “mean, authoritative figure” that we lose sight that we are their biggest teachers. We need to allow all feelings to flow and take the opportunity to teach whenever we can.

Wow, I feel like the luckiest person in the world to be able to be in communication with these thoughtful, insightful, eloquent people. And for me, this all circles back to Adam’s note, What does love mean? What does love mean when I’m anxious, in nervous anticipation, questioning everything, indecisive? For most of us, being loving could mean getting drawn into our child’s feelings and stuck in that awful suffocating space of discomfort that can seem like it will never end. We’ll want to resolve this for them, right? We just want our kids to feel better. That’s being a caring parent.

And then maybe out of that passionate love for our child, we do the brave, really awkward thing of going back to those parents of those children and telling them that they shouldn’t come after all. But then later, maybe not until the actual party’s there or even afterwards, maybe our child expresses their regret that the friends weren’t there. And how hard is it for us not to want to snap back, Well, you were the one that told me you didn’t want them. How disappointing and discouraging that could be for us, right? And maybe even make us resent our kids a little? Understandable. It’s the same as if our angry tantruming child says, Go away! I don’t like you! I never want to see you again! Do we hold them to those kinds of decisions? Or maybe, I hate all of these toys! I don’t want them anymore. Do we give all those toys away? And then when our child asked for them again, Well, you said you didn’t want them. We gave them away. We can’t take everything children say in a state of emotion as fact. But instead, we can be the adults in the room that see beyond the moment to that bigger picture, understanding our child’s immaturity and what help and love really look like when they’re struggling.

And yes, this thing about walking on eggshells. I remember feeling this way, and so many parents mention this to me in consultations, in notes. Try turning this around and imagining how it feels to be a child when your parent, this tower of power in your life, this pillar of strength, is walking on eggshells around you. How can that make you feel safe and comfortable? Feels like there’s something to be afraid of, right? Because our parent is acting in that tentative way out of these beautiful intentions: We don’t want to be the mean guy. We don’t want to be the mean person. We want our child’s world to be happy and shiny and without all these explosions and discomforts that they might have. But that doesn’t help children to feel their own positive power. Instead, it feels like they’re very powerful in a kind of scary way. They’ve got their parent scared.

This is the looking beyond the surface that actually makes our experience as parents much richer and more interesting. But it’s challenging. That’s where the answers are, though. They’re not in words that we say or our child says, or in certain actions that we’re taking. It’s really this understanding and connecting from that place of intimacy, that knowing place, or at least that curious place that wants to know.

Again, I want to thank all these parents for sharing with me and engaging with me and giving me a chance to explain myself. I value all of your viewpoints so much. So please keep them coming. I wish I could offer a personal response to every single one. Unfortunately, that’s not possible.

But I do have something now that just feels good to finally get it out there in one whole package. And that’s my Master Course, where I teach respectful discipline, boundaries, helping children when they need our help. All the elements that we need to absorb this deeply for ourselves. And many of you have noted, we don’t have that many models out there around us of what it looks like to frame boundaries as love, as Adam does. So if you haven’t already, I hope that you’ll check out my No Bad Kids Master Course, because there’s a lot of modeling going on there, including many actual demonstrations. And this is all designed to give you self-confidence so you can stand tall and be proud of the way that you’re parenting. Be proud of the way that you’re engaging with your children and the relationships that you’re building with them. So anyway, if that interests you, it’s at nobadkidscourse.com. Or you can always go to my website, janetlansbury.com. Tons of free information there for you, tons. And you can also get information about the Master Course.

Thank you so much for listening to and supporting this podcast. We can do this.

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