In this episode, Janet explains why this behavior actually makes sense and what we can do to help kids pass through these phases readily and in a healthy manner. She illustrates by addressing a question from a parent about his 5-year old’s incessant impulse to protect his territory and possessions from his baby brother. While he and his wife try to maintain an understanding, respectful approach to the behavior by acknowledging his feelings and his space, they’re perplexed by their son’s demands which seem unreasonable and often nonsensical. Worse, he can act aggressively toward his sibling, which is alarming. Janet offers specific advice and verbal examples for handling “mine” and other controlling behavior between siblings and peers.

Transcript of “Coping with Your Child’s Possessiveness”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be responding to a parent who asked about their child’s possessiveness. And one sort of general bit of advice that this reminds me of is that a wonderful way to figure out what’s going on with our children and what they need from us and how to help behavior shift, or at least understand it, is to imagine ourselves in our child’s shoes. Reminding ourselves that our young children are new to the world, everything is fresh. They don’t have these preconceived notions about not sharing, possessiveness, stealing, all of these things. They don’t understand what any of this is. And this is to their benefit, actually, that they don’t have all these judgments in their head about how other children are supposed to behave, how they’re supposed to behave.

Yes, they need our guidance, for sure. But if we can guide from a place of that kind of empathy or imagination—really, it’s us imagining what it’s like to have this fresh perspective that they have—that’s how we’ll be able to be truly attuned to them. To really see them and help them feel the comfort of being seen.

So with that introduction, here’s the question I received in an email:

Dear Janet,

Lately, my wife and I have been struggling with how to maintain a respectful approach when our 2.5-year-old protests our six-month-old playing with or even touching anything that’s not explicitly designated for him.

Whenever the baby touches, say, the wall or the kitchen table or the basket of clothespins, his older brother yells, “No, that’s my wall!” or “The baby’s too little to play with that. He can’t play with that!” We strive to stay unruffled and acknowledge that he doesn’t want his brother to touch those things. And also let him know that the wall or table or whatever it is is for the whole family and that the baby’s actually old enough to play with clothespins (they’re the plastic, non-pinching sort). Our older son usually accepts this with chagrin, but in another few moments, it’s a new protest over a new item.

Sometimes when he discovers the baby touching something, he’ll run over and attempt to pull the baby away physically, his lips pursed with aggression. We intervene as quickly as possible and restrain him, saying, “I won’t let you hurt your brother.”

We’ve drawn a line for his own toys, acknowledging that they’re indeed his, and that he has a reasonable expectation that the baby not touch them if he doesn’t want him to. When the baby begins to roll eagerly toward one of his toys, we coach our son through moving the toy out of the baby’s reach or taking it to his play space we’ve partitioned off so that he has his own refuge from his brother. But we don’t want to have to allocate every single toy as for one boy or another. And nor can we readily abide our son’s continuing expectation of the baby’s less-than-equal role in the family. But more than anything, we don’t want to set our son up to resent his little brother.

Any advice you can offer would be great.

Okay, wow, these parents are being extremely respectful and sensitive and they have a lot of empathy. Really they’re doing a remarkable job, and I love that they’re being so considerate of this situation.

Here’s what I would add: When their son says these things, I would keep in mind something that I guess could probably be the title for this podcast: trust the feelings. What I’m hearing here is something that I experience with toddlers in my classes and when my own children were little. I hear a lot about this from parents that I consult with. And that’s, by the way, the reason that I choose certain questions. I choose them because they bring up a theme or a question that I’m hearing about from lots of other sources, messages in social media, parents I work with in consultations or in my classes. I realize that these are common concerns, and so it seems that they would be good to share on the podcast.

I have to say, I kind of love that this boy is going to the extent that this parent is saying he doesn’t want the baby to touch the wall or the table. Because this makes it so clear to me. It makes it so clear that this is totally beyond reason. I mean, there’s no question, right? It doesn’t make sense. And what that means is that it’s not going to make sense. That these are feelings, not facts, that he’s expressing about the situation. That he has a baby brother, and the baby came and took over his whole life and changed it with his parents. And moved him a little bit out of being the center of the family, which he was used to. And that can be very scary and painful. So he doesn’t really want him to be here in certain moments. Just don’t touch the wall. That’s my wall. This was my whole house, these are my parents, this is my everything. And here’s this baby wanting to touch things, and it’s representative of how he’s invaded my life.

And often this also happens in classes with children and their peers. If a child has a baby at home that the parent has added to the family, then it’s very likely that I’m going to suddenly see a change in their behavior, that they become more possessive with other children. They’re in that holding on mode because they feel their place in their home slipping away. So they’ll say mine!, they want everything that every other child has, sometimes. And do they really want those things, those particular things? I don’t think so. I think they want to express, I’m feeling scared or worried or unsettled. I’m wanting to control things. I’ve lost control of what I knew of my life the way it was.

This can also happen for developmental reasons. When children are toddler-age and other children come to their house and they don’t want those children to touch everything. It’s not that they’re showing that they’re mean, selfish brats. They’re showing that they’re experiencing a feeling of feeling out of control of something that they’re used to having control over: their home, their toys. Now somebody else is here and I’m losing control. And if we recognize how quickly and completely toddlers are developing these first three years. Children develop more in the first three years than they do in all the rest of their years of life put together.

So this is a time we can have that impulse to want to hold onto something, anything. Everything’s changing, without even having a new baby in the family. A toddler’s life can feel like, Gah! I want to hold onto things. I need anchors. And that’s why they need us so much to be an anchor and, if possible, not to be reactive along with them. They also benefit from having a predictable routine, which is not too much stimulation, not a new class every day. They’re most comfortable in what we might consider boring, predictable, routine days. Why? Because there’s something there they can hold onto.

My point is that there are a lot of reasons that children feel like this, and rather than judging them, as we might want to in these moments, or trying to talk to them about what’s reasonable, what makes sense, No, this is not your toy, and This is the wall that holds up our house, it’s everybody’s wall. I can definitely understand the urge to want to explain those things, but that’s not really addressing what’s going on here. What’s going on is our child just wanting to say, I want this. I don’t want him to have it. This is mine. I want to hold onto all these things and have them all.

So to help our child feel more comfortable and satisfied and healed, expressing these feelings, all we have to do is actually what this parent is doing, which is acknowledge him. Acknowledge that he doesn’t want the baby to touch those things. That’s it, that’s the perfect response. We don’t need to explain what’s reasonable, and what I strongly believe that this child already knows, which is that the wall or the table or whatever is for the whole family, the baby is indeed old enough to play with this type of clothespin. This is the tendency that comes up for most of us. As parents, we want to explain it, the way we would to an adult or an older child. Let me tell you what’s true. And it feels like if we could just convince him and reason with him, he’ll see what a silly thing that is to say. But it’s silly because it’s an impulsive, emotional thing to say. I believe even as adults, we can say things we don’t really mean because we’re expressing a feeling in the moment. Well, younger children do this a lot more. So I would just stick with acknowledging, welcoming him to feel like that.

And then, because he’s let us know that he may decide he’s going to push his brother away from that wall or take his hand off the wall or do something else physical, we’re ready to stop that. So as we’re saying, “You don’t want him to touch the wall,” we’re ready to calmly intervene if we need to. And then if he tries to do something physical with his brother because he doesn’t want him to touch the wall, that’s when we say, “You really don’t want him to touch the wall, and I can’t let you move his hand. I’m not going to let you stop him,” while we’re blocking him with our hand. “But I hear you. You don’t like him touching that.” And if the baby’s expressing something then, that’s healthy. We acknowledge that too. That’s it. That’s all we have to do.

The other benefit of this: not only does our child get to express what they need to express to us and have us accept it in a non-judgmental, totally accepting way, the way that they really can feel heard and understood and not judged. We’re not only giving them that, but we’re also not winding ourselves up. Because when we’re trying to reason with someone that isn’t expressing reasonable things, they’re expressing these flashes of emotion, unreasonable things, we’re going to wind ourselves up. Because it’s a frustrating enterprise, right? It’s not going to get us anywhere. That’s also what I love about this experience that this parent shared. They got to see that it doesn’t help, because what did their son do? Well, they say he “usually accepts this with chagrin, but in another few moments, it’s a new protest over a new item.” So yes, that’s what makes it so clear that it’s feelings, not facts.

One of the many reasons I love children this age is because they’re so clear that way. It’s so over the top, right? Some of the stuff that they say that we know it’s not meant to be a reasonable truth. Young children are very uncomplicated. They just need to express it. So if I can’t express it with you here and you’re just not getting it and you’re not hearing me, now I have the impulse to keep trying to express it in another way, to do something else. You’re not letting me express it. And again, the more unreasonable these comments are, the more we can feel certain that they’re using this as a self-therapy, which is what children do. They’re not thinking consciously, I need to tell my parents that I don’t like this baby in my house. But that’s what their unconscious is telling them to do.

You may have heard or read somewhere that when toddlers say, “Mine, mine!”, mine means a lot of things that it might not mean to us. It means I want it, I like it, I need it, I feel like having it, or I don’t want him to have it. It doesn’t mean that my parents bought this at the store for me. Children aren’t thinking of it that way. They’re very in the moment with the feeling, and they’re saying it to express something in that moment. They’re not saying what’s true factually, but expressing something.

So continuing with the details from this note, sometimes when their son discovers the baby touching something, “he’ll run over and attempt to pull the baby away physically, his lips pursed with aggression.” There’s that guy getting into my stuff and he’s taking over my house. He’s taking over my parents. I want to control this guy. Which is also the reason children want to take all the toys away from a baby. It makes a lot of sense, right? This baby ripped my life away. Maybe if I just control every single thing he does, then I’ll feel better about him. He won’t be a threat.

Children feel this. It’ll flare up at different times for each child in different ways maybe, but it’s kind of a grieving process. And the way we grieve about any given situation has its own life and its own process. For example, we might go to our friend’s funeral or our family member’s funeral, and we’re not even crying then. And we wonder, should we be crying? What’s wrong? I don’t feel sad right now. But then maybe some random thing happens, we see something, we hear something. And suddenly, we’re bawling. This is how children grieve this loss, this change in their life. There’s this new person sort of pushing them aside. The feelings come when they come.

That’s why parents will often share with me their concerns that, just randomly, the older child is lashing out at the baby. It doesn’t make sense. No, it doesn’t make sense. And that’s why I encourage parents to try not to judge their children in these situations, because they are grieving and they’re doing it in a very immature, messy way. And yes, they need our help not to do wrong things, but if we could let the little things they say and those feelings that don’t make sense go by and just acknowledge them, they get through it more quickly and without the resentment that this parent says they’re worried about.

So if they’re just taking toys a few times, I would allow that, if it’s not this rampant thing that the child keeps doing. And then I would stop them to help that child, whether it’s with a sibling or a peer, that’s when I would say, “You want that one too, that he’s holding? I’m going to stop you here, because it seems you’re kind of stuck doing this again and again.” Without judgment, we help. But him expressing things like, “I don’t want him touching this or that,” we can let that go by, just validating.

But when he’s running over there, yes, I would try to get over there. I don’t know that I would run unless it was really an emergency. Because coming closer with that calm response, just walking over there at a nice, brisk pace maybe, and trying not to run unless it’s an emergency, helps us to demonstrate a more accepting, calm, non-judgmental attitude. Instead of telegraphing, Wow, you’re doing something really urgently terrible here that I feel I can’t handle unless I stop you immediately! Even if we don’t mean that, that’s kind of how it comes across, that my parent isn’t confident in their leadership here and that I’m doing these really terrible things.

And the tone that’s helpful to create is more of a calm, safe tone. Hmm, I’m going to see. I don’t want you to touch him that way. That’s a little too hard. And then blocking accordingly. So if there’s just a bit of something going on, if it’s not hitting or totally grabbing in an unsafe way, if he’s just maybe touching his hand a little roughly, then I probably wouldn’t even say, “I won’t let you hurt him.” That’s sort of saying the obvious, right? At that point, I would just say, “Hmm, that’s a bit too much.” And I’d have my hand there. “I see. You don’t want him touching that at all. You’re not liking him touching that. Hmm, yeah, that’s a bit too hard. I’m going to need to stop you there. You didn’t like that. You didn’t want him to do that.”

So those kind of things show that we’re not perceiving everything as this big emergency. We’re projecting that calm confidence that can be so important and helpful to our children. And to us, because the more we’re in that zone, the more we see how helpful it is and the more confidence we feel in ourselves, and therefore, it can become a natural way that we have with our children. It’s all about the way we’re perceiving this. Hmm, he’s getting into a little bit of trouble there, I better go help. Instead of, Ugh, there he’s doing it again! I got to stop him.

And then maybe if they really need to be separated because our older child keeps going back and he can’t stop himself and he gets in a rage, or he’s just so lost in his impulses, dysregulated, then yeah, then I would separate them. But whenever possible, I would do something much smaller, the least thing. Do less, because that gives the message that we’re not freaked out by his behavior.

This parent says “We’ve drawn a line for [their son’s] own toys, acknowledging that they’re indeed his, and that he has a reasonable expectation that the baby not touch them.” Yes, so that’s good to do. And I think it might help to say more like, “If you want to keep those things away from him, here’s a way to do that.” Maybe making less of a deal about these things are yours and these things aren’t yours, which can kind of feed into that possessive behavior without us meaning to. Again, because this logical part of the situation, that’s really not what this is about.

And that will help with what this parent mentions later in the note, which is: “We don’t want to have to allocate every single toy as for one boy or the other. And nor can we really abide by our son’s continuing expectation of the baby’s less-than-equal role in the family.” So there it feels like the parents might be veering a little bit into trying to keep things so equal at this point. And the truth is, with children, everything isn’t equal. I really love how this is expressed in Siblings Without Rivalry, that wonderful book. I kept it on my bedside table for years. One of the perspectives that it gives is that everything isn’t going to be equal with siblings, but everyone’s going to get what they need. So if you need 10 Ps, our older child, and the baby only needs two Ps, that’s how it’s going to be. It’s not, Well, he got this many, so he has to get that many. I found this idea to very much resonate and be true and helpful.

This baby was born into a very different situation than his older brother was, with all the excitement and the bonuses of having a sibling. But there’s also some, I don’t know, I guess I don’t even think a baby thinks of it that way, but maybe negatives to that, or some things that there’s just less of. There’s less time alone to be the one with all the toys, maybe there’s less one-on-one time. But the trade-off —and the baby doesn’t know any different— is this amazing day-to-day social experience with somebody else, this exciting person. Many of us have noticed that our babies, they know the difference between a child and an adult, and they’re much more interested in the children a lot of the time. They kind of light up. And if toys are taken away from the baby and we haven’t made a fuss about it or been too judgmental, then it’s really not a big deal to them. Most of them don’t mind it at all. Nobody wants the stuff as much as they want the attention of the other child or the attention of the parent.

And yes, seeing it this way also helps us because it makes for a lot less work for us in terms of, Okay, this is yours and this is yours, and Who had it first?, and all of that stuff. That can be hard to decipher at times, especially when we’re talking about children playing with peers. That’s not our job. Nor is it helpful to our children as they’re learning social behaviors, constantly being the police or the referee that’s in there. And instead really trusting a lot more that children can figure these things out a lot of the time, maybe not to our perception of how it should be, but to their liking, to something that satisfies them. But yes, if something’s nonstop, he keeps taking every toy away from the baby, then I would say something light, a little tip, and maybe stop him. “You’ve taken a couple of things. Let’s let him keep that one.” Not in a judgmental way. We’re still on both of your sides and we’re just coaching both of you to navigate this relationship.

That’s the way that we get this wish that this parent expressed. It’s the same that I certainly had and I believe all parents have. We don’t want to set our child up to resent their sibling. This is the way to do that. We understand that you’ve got these impulses. We understand they’re not reasonable. We’re going to stop you when you get too out there with them, because we’re on both of your sides. That’s how we give our children the opportunity to really develop a mutually respectful relationship and help our older child to not resent a sibling. Or resent us, or feel that we don’t understand and that his feelings are wrong and that he needs to somehow correct them. None of us can correct our feelings. We can work on our behaviors, the way that we express our feelings, but the feelings are just there. We just have them. They don’t make sense a lot of the time.

Again, I often see these situations with not just siblings, but with peers saying, “mine, mine!”, taking toys. And as parents, we want to say, “Well, no, that actually is not yours,” and we want to make sure that they get this right. But what’s even more important is to trust them to just vent the feeling, the momentary feeling. I’m holding that, I don’t want him to hold that. That’s all they’re saying. They’ve got that. It looks interesting in their hands. I want it. And when nobody has it, when it’s available, it’s often not as interesting.

This is similar to saying “share” to a very young child. They don’t really know exactly what this means with friends. We can explain “share” by using it in our behaviors with our children. Here, let’s share this umbrella so you don’t get wet. Or, I have some extra carrots here. Would you like me to share them with you? Or, Thank you for sharing those with me. That’s how children learn to share, not by it being demanded in situations where it means giving something up that they want.

Know that most of these awkward behaviors are impulses. They’re not reasonable thoughts that they’ll understand that they shouldn’t do if we just talk to them about it more. And the more out there the behavior is, the more you can trust that. Again, helping our children feel safe with all their feelings is really all we have to do.

I hope this is helpful. And there’s a lot more information about these ideas and many, many more on my website and in my books, No Bad Kids and Elevating Child Care. And in my No Bad Kids Master Course, if you really want to deep dive. That gives you the complete picture and helps you internalize this approach. Go to nobadkidscourse.com.

Thank you again for listening. We can do this.

UPDATE: A parent shared how she’s using the advice in this podcast and I thought our exchange might be helpful:

Parent: The day after listening to this podcast, my three year old got very upset about his new baby brother wearing the same diapers that he wears. My husband picked them out without thinking He tried pulling it off of him so I tried to remember what you said and replied, “oh man. I know that’s so hard seeing him wear the same diapers. I can’t let you take those off of him though” while as gently as I could trying to release his grip. I hope that was the right way of going about that. I also know you said it’s ok to allow them to take a few toys but if it seems they’re stuck to kindly stop them, however, what if it’s a teething item in the baby’s hand and they shout “I want that! It’s mine”

My response: Yes to this, well done! “oh man. I know that’s so hard seeing him wear the same diapers. I can’t let you take those off of him though” while as gently as I could trying to release his grip.” You can be firm though. With that wonderful empathizing you’re doing, removing his hand as easily as possible will come of as love and care. Too “gentle” can come off as tentative, which won’t be as helpful to him.

The post Coping with Your Child’s Possessiveness appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “A Secret to Helping Our Kids Achieve (Advice for the New Year)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be talking about this running thread that’s through many of the issues that parents share with me. It’s actually maybe not so much in the issues themselves, but in my thoughts about how to address these issues. These are the concerns that we have with our children’s development of skills of all kinds. Could be social skills, cognitive or motor skills, manners, character traits. We worry about those, right? Especially when kids are seemingly unmotivated, they’re not making progress, or they seem disinterested in doing things that we know that they’re capable of.

Could be a lot of things like getting dressed, building with blocks, drawing, not being welcoming to our friends and family, seeming too shy or too bossy with peers, not using good manners as we wish them to. Not interested in learning letters or numbers or learning to read. Seeming unfocused when they play, moving from one thing to another, or seeming to focus too much on this one mundane task with a toy. And even motor skill development, like when our child is still not walking at a year-and-a-half or even before that, we worry and we wonder what we can do to help.

Often the problem, or at least one element of the problem, stems from this spot-on comment that my mom used to make as a grandma. She was an excellent grandma, so into it. And I remember her saying, with her great sense of humor, when she would maybe make overtures to a child or she would be in the room when someone else was doing it, Oh, come on, give me a hug! She’d say, “Ah, I know. Oops. I want it too much, right?” Or to the other person, “I think you want it too much.” When we want it too much, our children feel that. Even when we want it a lot, our children feel that. And that can be pressurizing. Just as with all of us, or maybe just most of us, pressure can be uncomfortable. It’s nerve-wracking, unsettling, and it doesn’t set us up to learn or perform at our best.

So yes, there are exceptions for sure, but for most children, at least in this impressionable time of their life, this more open-to-us, this sensitive time from infancy right through their early teens, they need us, they need to please us. It’s a basic survival instinct that they have. So that pressure, that expectation that we have makes everything harder for them and can even delay learning, affect self-confidence and sense of self. When children know they’re not quite pleasing us, it doesn’t feel good.

The other element that goes hand-in-hand with this is our children’s healthy development of autonomy. Wanting to be their own person, especially as they start to become toddlers, and then all the way through the teenage years. They’re driven to feel autonomous, to feel a little independent of us. Of course, they still want us desperately and they want to be the ones to decide when to be independent of us. But that can get in the way of what we want, right? Because when we want our child to be able to do this thing and our child will likely feel that coming from us, it can make this side of them that wants to be autonomous say, No, they’re not going to do it. And that’s why the toddler years can be so challenging for us as parents because all of a sudden something that our child can do or usually wants, and now they’re saying no to it. What’s that about? It’s about growing up, it’s about being their own person. And it’s very, very healthy. And ideally we can try to remember to see it that way, that sort of rejecting us or things that we want for them is really integral to their healthy development.

But this is why it can be a very hard time when we’re directing our child’s toilet learning or wanting them to do things socially or all these other skills. The need for autonomy can show up there and cause children to naturally want to resist. Sort of holding themselves back from things that they could do to unconsciously make this stand as themselves, as their own separate person from us. If you want it, then I have to say no to it. That’s why children, beginning as toddlers, seem to say no a lot. They’re asserting self in this—hopefully we can see it as positive—way.

So, wanting things too much, wanting our child to do this specific thing, focusing our attention on it, worrying about it, maybe. That doesn’t help our children or help us to get what we want. And so what do our kids want? What do they need from us to be able to flourish?

It’s actually pretty simple because if we think about it, it’s what we all want from our loved ones. We want others to not only accept us as we are wherever we are in our journey, we want to be accepted wholly and loved for that. Rather than our loved ones or especially our parents wishing for more or different or the next thing in our development. So this is very simple, but it can be hard. It can be hard as parents to trust where our child is right now.

And there’s not a lot of help around us, usually. We live in a society that’s achievement-oriented rather than process-oriented, which is the arguably much healthier way that our kids are naturally, as innately gifted learners and explorers. So most of us, we’re not prone to being comfortable with the status quo. When we’re dating somebody, everybody asks, “Oh, how’s it going? When are you going to get married?” Then we get married. “When are you going to have a baby?” We have a baby. “When are you going to have another one? Are you going to have another one?”

And even a lot of parenting advice that’s out there these days is achievement-oriented. If you say these five words, your child’s going to feel better. Or, play a silly game with your child, not because you’re in a fun, loving mood that you want to share with them, but to get them to brush their teeth. Recently there was a popular post going around that said something to the effect of, The best thing you can say to your kids is that whatever grades you get in school, I’m going to love and accept you just as much. Now, there’s nothing really wrong with this, but I couldn’t help but see this from a child’s perspective. And I believe to a child, this would come off as this very kind of surface and late-in-the-game kind of message. Why is my parent saying this? Why does this need to be said? They’ve been giving me this message, or the opposite of it, through all their actions for years and years ever since I was small. Are they saying it to try to convince themselves? Are they saying it because this is kind of a band-aid that they hope will fix the years of subliminal messages that they’ve been giving me? Like when they interrupted my play to quiz me, Where’s your nose? Tell me the numbers, the alphabet song. Or when they got way more excited with my interest in reading than they ever did when I made mud pies or just played in the mud without making anything.

Children need us to show rather than tell these messages, because everything we’ve done with them has been showing them how we feel. If we really do take an interest in where they’re at, if we feel that that’s not only enough, but cool. So it’s not that we were wrong to do or say those kinds of things, but if we want our kids to be motivated in a healthy manner, from a place of confidence and comfort in their skin, knowing that they are enough because we’re making a point to show them that. And we won’t be perfect at this, we’ll need to keep reminding ourselves that actions speak louder than words. They always have, they always will.

So what do we do? Let’s say we realize that we’ve unintentionally given our child a lot of achievement messaging or that we’ve been subtly pressuring them to develop a certain skill. How do we change? Where do we begin? First of all, always, with self-compassion. With forgiving ourselves for doing something normal that almost everyone does at least a little bit, because we don’t have support to do otherwise, really. And knowing that really we’ve only been hurting ourselves, in a way, by buying into what’s encouraged around us by the greater society, by our family and friends. Isn’t your child doing this enrichment yet? Oh, they like that? You’d better give them a lesson so they’ll get better at it. We have a lot against us when it comes to trying to trust and wholly accept our children as they are. A lot against us. We don’t have encouragement, and we need it. So that’s where the self-compassion comes.

And then I recommend taking a look at some of the particulars, these things that we want so much for our child. It can be different for all of us. It’s worth exploring, right? Because, really, these things that we want a lot, that maybe we want too much, they’re a window into ourselves. They’re things that we want that we didn’t get, that weren’t encouraged in us, or that maybe we were scolded or rejected around. With that kind of self-reflection, there’s a lot we can learn about what matters to us. That’s where the healing begins. And that’s where we can start to differentiate between our child’s path—which we really don’t control at all. We can only encourage and support and hold boundaries around as needed, but we can’t decide who they’re going to be, what kind of things they’re going to like, what they’re going to want to do with their lives. So that’s where we get a clearer view of our child’s path and our own feelings, our wishes, our self-criticisms, etc.

So just as an example, and actually this note that I received from a parent is part of what stimulated me to want to talk about this today. This question kind of exemplifies what I’m talking about:

Hello, Janet-

Your guidance has fallen in line with the way my ex-wife has shared parenting with me. This framework/philosophy has not only improved the entirety of my daughter’s remaining life, but has also made my life better.

In regards to your recent episode about assertiveness, I found it, ironically, lacking in assertiveness. I’ve been in martial arts since high school, so I’m familiar with assertiveness, and I’ve “trusted the process” while trying to encourage my daughter—who’s eight—to speak up and stand up for herself. The issue is her lack of proper assertion is now starting to result in negative outcomes from interactions in her life. There has been non-zero progress, but nearly as much backsliding. I’m concerned that trusting the process is, in this case, too lackadaisical and will be harder to correct as she gets older.

Thank you for your work, and I hope you can offer some type of more specific action.

I wrote back: “Hi, thanks for your support. Can you explain your situation? Your question is too general for me to understand what you are getting at.”

And he wrote back:

Yes, sorry for being vague. I view it as a broad issue. I noticed this morning you have an episode about a strong-willed child. My daughter is strong-willed. She’s often bossy and wants to lead play on the playground. I joke she’s going to be the activities director for cruises. Paradoxically, her speaking up for herself is a skill I’ve tried to work on for most of her life. If she’s feeling cold, if there’s something she’d like to get or do, etc., it’s been some effort to get her to express herself.

It came to a head recently on the playground. A boy hugged her from behind. It was an unwelcome hug. She did nothing. Later that day, he hit her. She did nothing. This has also resulted in her grabbing things out of the hands of others, and she’s lost her cool with me once. It seems so strange, such a smart, strong-willed little girl not being able to express herself and set boundaries when appropriate.

I’ve talked with her and she agrees that sometimes her not speaking up leads to her being frustrated with people or situations, so she lashes out. Her daily behavior is phenomenal. I don’t want to misrepresent her. It’s that this is unusual behavior and increasing in frequency. I’m doing my best to get her to recognize the times she speaks up and it makes things better. I’m also flat-out having talks about why it’s an important skill. But I’m wondering if there’s a particular thing that can help me get her more secure in asserting herself.

Hopefully this better explains things.

I love this note. I love the love that this parent has for their child and their deep interest in them, and it seems like he sees his daughter very, very clearly. And this is so interesting, right? Because here’s a strong-willed girl, he describes her as, who’s very strong, can be bossy, bright, and she’s not standing up for herself. And as he says, this is unusual behavior. So I guess like other mysteries that we’re trying to solve, when something’s unusual, that means something, right?

This dad says, “Her speaking up for herself is a skill I’ve tried to work on for most of her life.” So there’s a clue, right? There’s the first clue. This is a really important skill to this parent. I don’t know how it’s looked that he’s tried to work on this for most of her life, but she knows it’s important to him and he’s focusing on it. We could say maybe he wants it too much. So she knows that, and she’s probably feeling both of these elements that I brought up earlier. She’s feeling the pressure of that. Oh, I know he wants me to assert myself when this child does this with me. And I’m feeling that vibration from him. He’s talked about this with me a lot. It’s a big message. It’s a big learning he wants me to do. Uh oh, the spotlight’s on. I can’t do it. So there’s that.

And also the other. I think especially because this is a strong child. He wants me to do this so much, I have to say no. And I don’t think this is conscious at all. I just can’t do it. I can’t give him what he wants here because I am my own person and I’m not going to let him decide just because he wants something that I’m going to do it. So again, not a conscious process inside our child’s mind, but that’s the impulse. That’s what we set up when we want it too much.

And he notices this. He says, “It seems so strange, such a smart, strong-willed little girl not being able to express herself and set boundaries when appropriate.” The thing is, she’s sort of expressing herself and setting boundaries with him, in a way, in these situations. You’re not going to decide how I handle this. I’m not going to do something that I know pleases you even though it would please me as well. And then the frustration that comes from that resistant mode that she goes into and feeling the pressure, both, that makes her later want to lash out. It’s frustrating, I wanted to do this, but I couldn’t do it.

He says, “I’ve talked with her and she agrees that sometimes her not speaking up leads to her being frustrated with people or situations, so she lashes out.” He says, “I’m wondering if there’s a particular thing that can help me get her more secure in asserting herself.” Yes, I believe there is, and it’s what we all want. You didn’t feel like asserting yourself there. Interesting. And, So what. That attitude. And I would dial all the way back his talks with her about how important this is, the teaching that he’s doing. All of that has sunk in, but now it’s holding her back, I believe. And when he backs off and becomes totally accepting of where she is right now and what she’s doing and taking an interest in that. Interesting. This very strong-willed girl doesn’t want to confront in the moment with some of these behaviors. That’s interesting. It’s not a bad sign. It’s not an endgame. It’s not a direction we need to worry about. It makes sense when we understand the way children think and feel and how perceptive they are when it comes to what we want. And how they’re, in this very subtle way, maybe training us to want the child we have, where they are.

And from that place we can learn to walk this very fine line of balance between where children need our support and help and where it’s getting in their way. And it’s kind of a lifelong journey that we’re on, trying to figure this out. We’ll never be perfect at it, but it’s sort of what takes raising children to another level for us mentally. That we can engage in this really interesting challenge of supporting without wanting it too much and without taking over in a way that doesn’t help our child.

And what I would say to her if I was this parent or any parent who realizes they’ve been maybe pressuring their child in some way or creating that resistance without meaning to, besides dialing it back and just not doing that and really accepting our interesting child where they are right now, I would put it forward. Because she knows and we know that she knows and she knows that we know that she knows. So I would put it out there: “You know what, I’ve talked to you a lot about standing up for yourself and how important that is and how much I want you to do that. And I realized you’re going to do it when you want to, when you feel ready. And that’s really nothing to do with me. I trust you. You know what you’re doing. You’re totally capable. And when you want to do that, when you’re ready, you’ll do it. If you ever want my support or my ideas around it, just ask.” She’s eight years old, so we can definitely have a conversation like that. But I would have one even with a one- or two-year-old. Maybe a little bit simpler, but I would offer up, You know I’ve been doing this. I know I’ve been doing this. Whether it’s around potty training or whatever. “I’m going to trust you when you’re ready.”

But we have to believe it first. We have to get there first before saying those words. We have to mean it. This is where what I used to do a long time ago, acting, and parenting are similar. It’s not good unless you believe it. In that moment, you believe it. So this is real life and we can believe it, right? It should be easier to believe in this child that he says “her daily behavior is phenomenal,” whatever that means. Wouldn’t we all love a parent who feels like that about us? So there’s no reason not to trust this child.

I remember an example from my class with this adorable girl. She was in my class from the time she was a very young infant until around three years old. And her parents were amazing and they really got the trust thing, and they saw how capable she was from quite young. I mean, we all saw it, we see it with all the children in different ways. And there was no reason not to trust her. But one day she—and I can’t remember how old she was, but I think it was after she had turned one, some months after—she took a few steps, she started walking it seemed. But then, she went back to walking on her knees. I guess crawling, but not on her hands and knees, just on her knees, like straight up. I haven’t seen that many children do this. And of course the parents were a little worried. What’s going on? Why is she doing this instead of walking now? We know that she can do it. They didn’t want it too much, but they were naturally curious.

One thing I was able to point out to them, and that’s what these classes are about, and the gift of them really, is that we can point out to parents what she is doing and give them all the encouragement they need to keep trusting. I said, “Well, this is still working for her, on her knees. And look at the muscles she’s building here. And look how speedy she is, getting around on her knees. When she sees the reason that she really would rather be walking, she’ll be doing that again.” And sure enough, I don’t know, it was maybe like three or four weeks went by, and she was up and walking. Very solidly, because she had all the confidence, all the motivation, all the muscle development and balance that she needed. She’d worked on it, on her knees.

So for the next year and the next and the next and the next, let’s give our children an empowering, life-giving message: You know your journey better than I do. You’re enough as you are, not because I say these words to you, but because you know that I really believe it. And to help us believe it, maybe we can work on a message from—and now I’m really dating myself—John and Ken. They had a talk radio show for years. My mother listened to it, so it’s got to be ancient. They used to say at the end of every show, EGBOK. And EGBOK is an acronym for “Everything’s Gonna Be OK.” One of my children and I always end our messages and calls with EGBOK. So, EGBOK to you, it’s gonna be okay.

And I have an idea for you for starting the new year right. My No Bad Kids Master Course will help you to fully absorb and internalize my relationship-centered approach. You can check it all out at nobadkidscourse.com. And my books have both been bestsellers on Amazon for years: No Bad Kids and Elevating Child Care.

Happy New Year. We can do this.

UPDATE: The parent who sent me the email kindly responded to this podcast:

Hello again Janet,

I just heard the episode in which you addressed my email. Thank you so much for giving such an insightful and thoughtful response. 

I can absolutely see either scenario fitting with what’s going on inside her. But beyond that, you’re of course right about her doing things on her own time. 

She took slightly longer than normal to walk. She took so long to talk, we began to wonder when we should become concerned. She regularly is chill, and then surpasses any expectations. 

I do trust her, and I think your advice was great. 

Thank you again. I look forward to future episodes, and I wish the best for you and yours.

Thank you!

The post A Secret to Helping Our Kids Achieve (Advice for the New Year) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Encouraging Kids to Be More Assertive”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be talking about a topic that parents bring up a lot, and always have, in the classes that I’ve taught. Interestingly, when there’ll be children who are maybe one-and-a-half that are taking toys from each other, it’s often the parent of the child who’s not the taker, but the takee, who gets the most concerned. Because their child isn’t standing up for themselves, they’re just letting these things happen. They’re not being assertive. And we all want our children to feel confident and assertive, right? That’s going to help them in their life. As somebody who hasn’t always felt very assertive in life and has slowly built that trait for myself, I really do understand the concern. And so I’m going to be giving feedback to two different parents who brought their concerns to me in emails about their children’s assertiveness.

First I want to talk a little about assertiveness. It’s, I guess, a character trait, and we’re all born with the potential for a variety of character traits, but some more than others, right? Some of us have natural assertiveness, we’re born very assertive. Others are not. But it’s something that we can all grow into with this essential aspect in us. And that aspect is self-confidence. And, interestingly, both of the parents in these notes bring up self-confidence along with assertiveness that they want for their children, that they’re not seeing right now, and it’s concerning them.

So what helps children to feel more assertive? There are people in life who are very assertive that aren’t necessarily as self-confident underneath it all, but I would say all people who have healthy self-confidence have the ability also to be assertive. Maybe it’s not this big, cocky assertiveness, but it’s a quiet ability to say no, have boundaries, stick up for ourselves. So oftentimes, and in both of these cases, the key to helping our children feel more assertive is to fuel their self-confidence. And the way to do that is this word you hear me bring up a lot: trust. Trust in them.

Here’s the first note:

Hi, Janet-

I hope you’re doing well, and thank you for your wonderful advice. It has been immensely helpful in my parenting journey so far. I have two children, an elder son who is five-and-a-half and a daughter who just turned 18 months. I have followed RIE principles since almost the beginning, with a lot of challenges, basically around setting boundaries and seeing the right perspective, what you call a different kind of lens. Anyway, I would say on a scale of one to 10, I have followed up to seven.

However, I have recently noticed that my son has been struggling asserting himself. I thought that having followed RIE, this should come naturally to him, but it hasn’t. He travels to school on the bus and has been facing some kind of bullying by other kids. Once by an older kid he was sitting next to who was hitting him and roughhousing in the name of play, and a second time by a child his age who was also hurting him and fighting him. Both times he did not come home and tell me immediately, he told me much later in the day when somehow the topic of the bus came about. I asked him why he didn’t tell the bus monitor and said, “Why don’t you push the kid off?” I know both times my response was not very attuned, but I did later try to acknowledge his feelings.

I was left wondering, Why is he not asserting himself and sharing things that happen with me immediately? What is it that I need to change? I want him to always assert his boundaries and be confident enough to do so. He’s in a traditional school that praises good behavior and kind of shames bad behavior, so that’s another disadvantage. How should I help my son in such environments in a way that he can be confident, assertive, and feel good about himself?

Many thanks.

I also forgot to mention before I started that in both cases with these notes, and with something like developing assertiveness, this isn’t a quick fix situation. We can’t say just the right words to our child that’s going to turn this around suddenly. It’s a slow evolution in our child’s development that we really can’t even rush, but we can fuel it. We can fuel it by fueling their self-confidence and not doing things that defuel their self-confidence. I know that people that listen here are probably used to this, that most of my suggestions are not going to bring a quick resolution to the issues that parents and children are facing, unfortunately. Sorry, I wish I could. But just like humans of other ages, children are not simplistic beings. They can’t just flip a switch and be something different. It takes time. And that makes it even harder for us to do what I’m suggesting, which is trust.

So in this case, with this boy, there could be two reasons that he’s not telling his parent right away about these incidents on the bus. One could be that this isn’t a huge deal to him. A lot of times when children are going through things socially, maybe it’s a little disturbing, but they’re also sort of interested in, Wow, I’m getting this attention, or What’s going on here? So this might not be as much of a crisis as this parent worries that it is.

And of course, if she has any doubts, and maybe I would just do this prophylactically, I would, instead of talking to your son about what he should do, I would suggest some other ways to handle giving him feedback and helping him process the situation. But what I would do is go to that bus service or the school or whoever’s in charge of this, and not make a big scene that this is bullying because we’re not sure if this is really bullying. It sounds like some out-of-control behavior, but I wouldn’t jump immediately to bullying. But I would let them know and say, “Really, it seems like there needs to be a little more supervision on the bus.” And if the bus driver can’t do it, because they’re obviously busy, maybe they can have some student volunteers assigned that are already on the bus to monitor the other children. To just keep everybody safe, and when there’s roughhousing, to stop it when it starts. Peer leaders are often the most effective. So I would consider that if you have a serious concern that your child may be getting hurt or getting bullied or that he’s upset about this, that he feels out of control, that he feels alone and he needs that support. I would absolutely do that on that level with whoever’s in charge of that situation.

But getting back to your son— So what we really want is our child to be able to stand up and say, “No, this is not okay!” And that’s such a hard thing for children to do with peers. It really is. We could have a very confident, assertive child who still struggles with that, because peers are so important to them. They’re trying to figure it out, they want to connect with each other, they want to be liked. And there’s nothing weak about that. It’s part of their learning, their goal is to connect with other children. So it makes sense that to tell another child no or to have a strong boundary with them is the hardest thing. And it doesn’t mean that he’s not an assertive person or a confident person.

So the fact that he’s not telling her right away could be that this isn’t a big deal for him, but it could also be that he’s concerned about her reaction. And it sounds like, without meaning to, this mom did the normal thing, which is react. Hey, why didn’t you do something? Don’t let them do that to you. What her son feels from that, and he may have anticipated that she might’ve responded this way, is that his response to whatever happened on the bus, she’s without meaning to, kind of judging it. He feels judged that he didn’t do the right thing. Why didn’t he push the guy off him? Why didn’t he tell somebody? Very hard things, again, for a child to do with peers. And then he feels that his mother feels he didn’t do the right thing either. So that does the opposite of fueling him with confidence.

And the fact that he has an 18-month-old sibling means it’s likely he’s been judged around his behavior with that child as well, possibly, because that’s a common thing that happens. It’s really hard not to judge as a parent when your older child is showing aggression or just dislike towards the baby or having other behavior that’s around that change. Oftentimes they feel a lot of judgment around those behaviors, understandably. But it’s hard for children because they already are coming from a vulnerable place. Which doesn’t mean that this is a problem that we can’t turn around, at all. It’s just to be aware of.

So, for whatever reason, he didn’t want to tell her because maybe he sensed he didn’t respond in the way she would’ve wanted or that he would’ve felt judged. And what we want to do for him—and what this parent wants to do—is the opposite: to help him feel trusted in his process of handling these situations. The way to do that is to take an interest in his point of view, instead of judging it. Being open to, Oh, you’re telling me this. How did this make you feel? What did that feel like?

Now, where this parent is now, she may have to try to dial back, because her child knows that she’s maybe already disappointed in him on some level with the way that he’s handling this. The way to dial it back is just to be a sounding board for a while. Before you give any kind of advice, I would only stick with—and really meaning it, so not kind of leading him with, “What did you think about that? You should have thought it was bad,” but really open to, Ah, what was that like? And since she has also said these words to him that he may have felt judged by, she might even dial it all the way back with an explanation and say, “I know that I told you you should do this or that before, and I was thinking about that and I don’t know the right thing to do. And I really trust you. You have a good sense of yourself and you have a good sense of what’s right or wrong. So I’m not going to give you more advice of what to do. I want you to be able to explore it with me.” Maybe not all those words, but that kind of attitude, so that we’ve put it all out there. Yes, I jumped to telling you you should have done it this way or that way, and I realize that and I’m taking it all back. Let’s start again at square one. I just want to know how you felt. And maybe this won’t even happen again for this child, but if it does, that’s where I would bring it up.

And in other situations, too. That trust in him, taking an interest in our child’s point of view instead of judging it, it helps them to feel safe to open up to us. Which judging them doesn’t, of course. And out of that, not deciding what he should feel, he might have a different perspective. Like I said, maybe that’s a good sign that he didn’t report this right away, maybe it wasn’t a big deal to him. How did this make you feel? And then when she’s dialing it back and saying those things about, “I know I gave you this advice and I told you what I thought you should do, but I actually trust you more on this,” she might add, “And if there’s something you can’t handle, please let me know right away and we can figure it out together.”

We want to try to trust and respect our child’s ways of managing conflict with their peers, rather than giving them ours. Because children have a better sense of this than we give them credit for, but they can feel so overrun by us, right? And our opinions about it. So, that openness. And then when it starts to feel right that he’s sharing more with you, giving open-ended feedback, like, “I wonder what would happen if you said this, or you just turned away and put your hand up, or you might want to try this.” Just offering, very gently, very openly, “I wonder . . .” Considering this as working together with him, trying to take his lead.

And again, not expecting quick results. These are long processes. The same with other kinds of character traits. It takes a lot of trust in them and the space and time for them to come to these situations with that vital aspect, which is self-confidence. My instincts, what I’m choosing to do, or what I’m choosing to not do yet, is where I’m at right now. And it’s okay. And maybe he will find his own way that isn’t our way of setting a boundary, even. Maybe he’ll find a way to break the ice with these children and be their friends. Some children use humor. Give him the space and time to find his way.

It’s very challenging as parents, I know. I’m talking like it’s easy and I know it’s not. And I love that this parent cares enough to say, “What is it that I need to change?” I would just say, let go of the judging, trust him more. He’ll get there, I promise. And maybe he’ll have ways of dealing that really surprise you. That’s happened to me.

Okay, so here’s another letter that’s around the same topic but a little bit different:

Hi, Janet-

On many occasions in your podcast and book, you’ve touched on how to work through tricky situations with sibling dynamics, establishing boundaries, connecting with my kids one-on-one. The list could go on forever. You’ve really helped me navigate this exciting and fulfilling parenting world.

However, I have a question for you, and this is regarding friend dynamics. My daughter, who is in second grade, has a good handful of friends that she enjoys playing with. She has some wonderful, healthy friendships, and I feel so happy for her. And I see the happiness she gets from her friends, too. However, there’s one friend in her class that she plays with who has been recently diagnosed with anxiety. This friend constantly makes our daughter unhappy at school, either by bragging, bossing her around, excluding her, tattling on her, little digs. Sometimes this leads to tears or my daughter saying she had a “thumbs down” day at school. They are in class together, have lunch and recess together. It even happened during summer at camp. These little interactions happen at varying times during the school day. And from what I understand from my daughter and other parents is that this particular kid does it to other girls as well.

My husband and I try our best to be mindful of her friend’s diagnosis and ask our daughter to be patient, give this girl grace, but also create her own boundaries. We’ve coached our daughter to stand up for herself and establish her boundaries. For instance, “We can’t be friends if you’re going to talk to me like this. Your words are hurtful. I don’t feel the same way as you do. We cannot play together if you are excluding so-and-so.” The friend responds with a burst of anger, stomps off, and our daughter feels like the situation is unresolved and feels sad. Occasionally the friend will apologize, but the next day something else will happen.

I’m doing my best to give my daughter the chance to work through this on her own, but something comes up at least once a week and she says she wants a friendship break. I don’t blame her. I recognize that she can somewhat create a boundary for herself, but it’s hard to avoid someone that you spend all day with. I’m at a loss on how to navigate this situation. I want my daughter to feel safe, free to play with friends, and feel confident that she can navigate tricky social situations and not be affected by this behavior. But I also recognize that, while she is a confident, smart, loving seven-year-old, she does not have all of the tools to respond to her friend or other similar social situations.

Thank you in advance for your time and consideration.

So yes, this girl does sound confident indeed to me. And how wonderful that she has some great friendships and knows how to have healthy friendships, and she knows what that feels like. And this friend with the anxiety isn’t her only example of what friends can be like. So that’s great, right?

It’s interesting to me that when this parent says, “The friend responds with a burst of anger, stomps off, and our daughter feels like the situation is unresolved and feels sad.” So I’m sensing—I could be totally wrong on this—that if her daughter was just trying to avoid this person and this was just a big pain for her, she could do that. She wouldn’t feel sad. I think she feels sad for a lovely reason, that she wants to try to have a friendship with this girl, she wants to try to connect with her. Maybe she does see beyond the bluster of the behavior, and that’s what’s making her sad, for this girl, that it’s unresolved. Because if she didn’t care, she wouldn’t care if it was unresolved. She could just work on ignoring the person, right? So I think she’s wanting to learn some really important things here. Maybe not consciously, but she’s staying engaged with this girl, that she wants to learn from this.

So going back to what will help fortify her, it sounds like she’s on her way. And even the fact that she says she wants a friendship break—yeah, she wants a friendship break because she considers this a friend, but it’s a friend that is very, very challenging and she wants a break from that. So when she says things like that, I would encourage, “Yeah, of course you do. You’re trying really hard with this girl and she’s difficult for you, right? She’s hurtful. It doesn’t feel good, but you’re kind of sticking in there with it. And I really admire that.” I would tell her that. And getting back to fueling her with the self-confidence she needs to keep moving in this sort of direction. I think she’s already well on her way, and this parent says she is self-confident. We want to trust in her. And that’s what I was speaking to, the idea of trusting that it’s not that she can’t say no or navigate this girl, even. It’s that she’s feeling the challenges of it, and that’s not a terrible thing. It could be seen as a very positive learning process. So I would try to trust in that, and taking an interest in her point of view instead of judging it.

That’s where we have to be careful though, because, just like with this other parent before, the parent of the boy on the bus, it can be a delicate thing to give our children direction in these situations. It works better usually when we’re more open as a sounding board to hearing what they think, and then maybe gently guiding them with, “I wonder what would happen if . . .”

And it sounds like this parent, with the best of intentions, she asked her “daughter to be patient, give this girl grace, but also create her own boundaries.” And they’ve coached her to stand up for herself and establish her boundaries, for instance, “We can’t be friends if you’re going to talk to me like that.” But even the way this starts out, they asked her to give this girl grace. That’s a beautiful sentiment and a message we want to give children about other children that have struggles or anyone that has struggles, is to try to understand and have compassion and give them grace.

But I wonder if this girl wouldn’t have done that anyway, and maybe it would feel more trusting and confidence-building for her if we didn’t give her that instruction. And I know this parent already did, but I’m just saying for the next time. Or even to dial it back and say, “We said that we want you to give her grace and that we want you to stand up for yourself and have boundaries. But I think you’ve got all these instincts already, I feel like. And so I don’t think we need to tell you that stuff. We’re just here for you to share. And if you want any thoughts from us about how to handle things, let’s talk about that. But we trust you, the way you’re navigating this. It feels like you know what you’re doing.” Or, “How does it feel?” Even better, maybe.

That’s what I mean by trusting, not judging. It’s not this heavy thing, like either of these parents are judging their children in some negative way, at all. But even assuming that our daughter needs our help to do things that she’s not actually requesting, that can feel a little like, Oh, my parents are trying to steer me in this direction, so that’s the direction they think I should go in. It’s this very, very subtle form of judging. Nobody should feel bad about it. It’s just a way of actually practicing that very challenging thing for us, that trust. And taking an interest in her point of view. What is that like? How is it to be with her when she does these things? What do you feel like doing? What do you feel like saying? But very openly, not steering, not with an edge of how we think she should feel. Hard to do. Kind of a fun challenge in a weird way, for me at least. But we’re not going to be perfect at this. And so it’s just awareness, just stuff to try.

So, not deciding what she should feel, not deciding that she needs to stand up for herself in the way that we think she should and have boundaries. Because children having boundaries or handling challenging situations, which is the way they build a lot of confidence, not by us telling them wonderful things about themselves, but the fact that they can face adversity. Which both of these children are doing, they’re facing adversity. That’s how you build confidence. But we don’t want to undermine that by saying, You need me to tell you how to do this, because they might handle adversity their own way.

I would dial this back with this girl too, and just be a sounding board from here on out. And maybe even say, “I know we said these different things you should say to her, but that doesn’t seem like it’s working. She’s just getting mad. What do you want to say to her? How do you feel?” And maybe instead of saying, “Your words are hurtful,” she might say, “I feel hurt” or “Ouch!” Or one thing you might offer is when she asks you to play, but she wants to exclude other children: “I wonder how it would be if you just said, ‘Thank you, but no, I’m not going to do that.'” Instead of commenting about what the girl’s doing, just talking about herself, using only “I statements.” And not expecting that she’s going to be able to change this girl, because I doubt very much it’s in her power or anyone’s power. So I don’t think bringing these realities to light for this other girl is really going to be effective. It sounds like it’s not effective, because the friend feels judged and responds with a burst of anger and stomps off. But the way the friend responds can’t be our child’s responsibility. That’s why I would suggest maybe she just says less and not to expect this girl to take things gracefully because it seems like she’s not going to. And that’s okay, not everybody will. But that’s what having boundaries is. It’s being okay with other people’s reactions to them.

So we want ideally to fuel her self-confidence, respecting her ways of managing conflicts with peers. “What do you feel like saying when she says that?” And then giving the most open-ended feedback, when it’s time for that. “I wonder what would happen if you . . .” And then, just as I was saying with the boy on the bus, if your child feels really brought down by the situation, or maybe she’s feeling stuck—to me, it sounds like she’s handling it really well. “I just need a break from this friend.” “Yeah! Yes, you do. You can say no thanks to her.”

Just to reiterate: It’s a slow process. We’re not going to see immediate changes. But it’s a practice for us as parents that really applies to so many things, so many areas of their development and their learning. Trusting them, so that they can have that self-trust, which is where all of these positive character traits spring from. Taking an interest in their point of view instead of judging it with ours. Not deciding what children should feel. They might have a different perspective, and that’s a good thing. Their perspective is where their self-confidence and assertiveness is going to come from. Dialing it back if we need to. Being a sounding board first and foremost, and most of the time respecting children’s own ways of managing conflict with peers. Being open to them, rather than assuming that ours are the best way or the only way. And when feedback is requested, or we’re really able to be in that open sounding board place, gently giving open-ended feedback. “I wonder . . .”

These are ways we can fuel our children, fuel their evolution, their development. This magical thing: self-confidence. We can’t give it to them, but we can help fuel it. I really hope some of this helps.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting, you can get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and apple.com.

And now, at last, I have a online course! Learn more at: NoBadKidsCourse.com.

Thank you so much for listening. We can do this.

UPDATE: The parent who asked about her son on the bus kindly shared this update:

A big thank you for responding to my email below. I heard your podcast on it and as soon as it popped on my iPhone I was like this is what I was looking for. I did not know you were actually addressing my concern. I can’t thank you enough because I have to say this concern has been on my mind ever since.

As I was listening you I just couldn’t help but notice how on point you are regarding my son even though you haven’t met him. Yes, even I felt somewhere that it wasn’t a big deal for him and he was not negatively affected with the roughhousing and hitting. He is a highly sensitive and intelligent boy so I believe he understands the kids quite well. 

I also felt he was putting it before me to check how I would react. And my reaction was not the ideal. You are on point that he needs a sounding board, which I haven’t been, to be honest. 

I can’t thank you enough for the immensely great work that you are doing free of cost. I wish you all the good things in life. I will follow your advice and keep updating you with our progress.

The post Encouraging Kids To Be More Assertive (Includes an Update) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Toddlers and preschoolers are driven to learn everything about their world, and they are particularly intrigued by the people in it: peers, family members, kids, grown-ups, and most of all their parents. A key aspect of their socialization is learning about personal boundaries, understanding how to assert theirs and respect those of others. They need our help with that. In her response to a parent’s question about her 2.5 year old hitting children who invade his space, Janet explains how we teach these invaluable lessons and why they matter.

Transcript of “Teaching Kids About Personal Space”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m responding to a Facebook message I received. It’s a question about personal space. Certain children really need personal space and it makes them uncomfortable when another child enters that space. So how can we help them learn to manage this and to consider and respect the personal space of others? Hopefully I’ll be answering those questions and more. I’m also going to talk about hitting and other behaviors, and when adults are sort of invading a child’s personal space, causing them to be uncomfortable. I’ll be covering all of that too.

Okay, here’s the question I received:

Hi, Janet-

I really love your content. Thank you for your insight. I have a situation I was really unsure how to parent. If a two-and-a-half-year-old likes their personal space and a child was coming into their personal space, on top of them, etc., the two-and-a-half-year-old pushed the other child away. Do I let this happen? Or do I encourage the child to say, “Please move away from me,” etc.? My only concern is if they use verbal communication, it won’t be effective, as most of the kids don’t listen at all and just keep getting in the child’s space. I feel bad correcting this behavior as he’s allowed to have his personal space. Would so appreciate any help.

And she continues:

I guess the other child’s parent needs to step in and enforce boundaries with their child to stop them going into the other child’s space, but the parent wasn’t there. In this scenario I should have probably parented the other child and explained that the other child needs space.

I wasn’t sure reading this message if this was coming from a parent or a professional caregiver of some kind. So I just want to say, I’m going to be responding to this as if this is a parent.

I appreciate this parent’s conscientiousness, trying to figure out what’s the right thing to do. And in this case, and every case when there’s something going on between children, I would help both children as best I can. I don’t really consider that parenting another child, but being a helpful adult in the situation, who actually has an opportunity to teach positive lessons that both children can benefit from.

Children, particularly in these early years as toddlers, we can’t expect them to be able to assert their own boundaries. They need our help with that. And in a case like what this parent shares, we’ll ideally be teaching both children. In the way that children learn best, which is when we’re calm, confident, with our modeling, whenever that’s appropriate, and not casting blame or shaming or going into urgent rescue mode or otherwise making some big, pointed deal out of it. We don’t want to overdo and add emotion or extra focus to these behaviors. And that means if we aren’t close enough to help calmly, it’s best to wait to help until that point when we can.

So what I’m going to suggest, and I’ll definitely give examples, is how to block the behavior if we are there in time, and then reflect in a manner that helps both children to learn something for the next time. Not necessarily be able to do it the next time, because it takes repetition with young children. So I would be prepared that they’re not going to learn it perfectly every time, but I would still want to teach the lesson. I would do something similar to what this parent suggests. She says, “Should I encourage the child to say, ‘Please move away from me.’?” I would encourage that. It might not be possible to do right in that moment because these situations are happening quickly. So it would be something we could reflect after the fact or later.

Either way, we want to keep it light, A here’s a little tip for you type of attitude, not a heavy hand. Because the basis for children to learn social behaviors, especially something as challenging as asserting their boundaries with another person, is self-confidence. It takes a lot of social confidence for children to assert boundaries. And some children are slower to learn this than others. More sensitive children can take a lot longer. When we come on too strongly, children can get the message that they should be able to do this. And what that can do is diminish their trust in themselves. Trust in themselves is what confidence is. That’s a synonym for self-confidence: trust in ourselves. Or if the child’s on the quote “aggressor” side of this, then our strong lesson around their impulsive, typical, awkward behavior— which these are, imagine all the awkwardness we feel when we’re just learning something, and socializing is a complicated thing to learn. So giving a strong, forceful lesson then will also diminish that confidence.

Now, how do we get there early so that we might be able to block this invasion of space, or at least stop the hitting in response? The key is to practice observing. Especially when our children are engaging with other children, it helps us to practice observing all the children. And that informs us of the behaviors and the self-regulation level of all the children. Our own child will get to them very well, right, if we practice observing. So maybe we know, or we soon learn, that, Oh, my child defends their space with a hit or a kick or a push, so I want to be ready for that. I want to go into situations not anticipating that in an anxious manner, but expecting that it could happen and being prepared. So, calm anticipation. And then when we’re observing all the children, it’s usually not that hard to read their energy. And whether the child is mine or another parent’s, I’m going to try to be there to help my child in the situation. That’s my job. So I hang out a little closer to where the children are, in this cool, relaxed fashion. What I’ve called a “buddy guard.” I want that calmness to just emanate from me, because that will help all the children stay more regulated in the situation. It helps them to have better behavior.

And now let’s say I’ve noticed a child whose energy is a little bit unrestrained, it’s a little out there. And here they are approaching my child. I’m still calm, but I’m ready. And as they’re coming close, I put my hand in the way. My hand is there, I say something like, “Oops, that might be too close for Sammy. I’m going to stop you. Did you want to say hi?” And then that’s it, I just wait with my hand there. And if they’re still standing there, both of them taking it all in, I might add, “Sammy, you can let him know that’s too close, while putting your hand up.” And then I demonstrate that —you can’t see me right now, but I’m doing it— with my fingers pointing upward in a “stop” hand signal.

From there, a whole assortment of things can happen. Sammy might relax and start engaging with the child, they might go their separate ways, who knows? But I know that I’ve done my job and I’ve taught a really good lesson there. And certainly the other parent won’t be upset with the way I’ve handled that, even though pleasing everybody can’t be my priority. My priority is my child. And next in my list of priorities is that other child because, well, that’s me, maybe. I like kids and this is typical behavior. It can be hard to be them and be learning, and I want to help them as best I can.

If I get there too late and the space invasion already happened, I can still block my child from hitting by first putting my hand in between, doing that right away, and then while it’s there, “Oops, I can’t let you hit. Was she coming too close?” I’m waiting a bit. I’m still blocking. And then maybe I offer a gentle lesson. “You can let her know that’s too close like this,” putting my hand up with that “stop” signal.

Now what if the hit gets away from us too? We’re too late to come in without running. And I really don’t recommend running unless there’s a big emergency. Why? Because running or a sense of urgency from an adult charges up the situation. It unsettles everybody. So I would only do that if someone was really in danger. So there we are, we’ve missed that invasion and the hit, but we’re still there to block anything else that might happen. We’re ready. And maybe we put our hand out preemptively, because our child might try to lash out again or that other child might try to get in their space again or lash back at them. But it already happened. We can still say, “Ah, I can’t let you hit. Did she come in too close for you?” And then to the other child, “Are you okay? Sorry I wasn’t there to stop that hit. He doesn’t like when kids come too close.”

Then just waiting for how the children choose to handle this from there. We’re there to help and protect, but not to try to fix and make it all work out for the children, because that part is really important learning for them. And sometimes they won’t, they’ll drop it and they’ll both turn away and that’ll be that. But you never know. Other things can happen, too, that might really surprise us. The children finding a way to join together because they feel safe and nobody feels judged or embarrassed or like we’re against them. We’re believing in them.

And by the way, when we say those things like, “I can’t let you hit” and “Did she come in too close for you?”, it may feel more comfortable and work better to switch it up. Especially if we see that that other child does seem hurt, then I would definitely attend to them first: “Ooh, are you okay? Sorry I wasn’t there to stop that hit.” And maybe I wouldn’t even say the part about “he doesn’t like when kids come too close,” because that’s kind of trying to explain away something that this child is still experiencing and feeling, that he got hurt a little or surprised. And in that case, I might just stay checking on that other child and not even attend to my child until later, in terms of saying, “I can’t let you hit,” or “Did she come in too close for you?” We have to kind of feel out the situation. And ideally we’ll get comfortable enough in our role that we’ll be able to adjust and be flexible to what feels right in the moment.

Now, what if this happens with an adult? An adult invades our child’s space or our child is kind of invading an adult’s space. I would do the same thing, and know that we’re teaching both of them when we gently but confidently handle this. So let’s say the adult is coming up to hug our child and we know this is not going to be welcomed by our child. Or we just don’t think the person should be doing that anyway. Then we can gently put our hand on the person’s shoulder or put our hand in front of our child and say, “Oh, did you want a hug? Let’s see if he wants that.” “You feeling like a hug?”, to our child. And if we get something other than a very welcoming response, then we can say, “Oh, I guess he’s not ready yet. Maybe later,” or, “You know, he’s just not comfortable with that right now, but thanks for the gesture.” So we can be polite, we can be unshaming, and teach these lessons. And what we’ve taught the adult there is, This is a person with a point of view over here. Because sometimes when people have that tendency, they’re not quite seeing that this is a whole person yet, deserving of respect. So they just want to do what they want to do because the child’s so cute and cuddly-looking and they just want to do that. That can sometimes be it. So now we’ve had an opportunity to teach that.

And if that gets away from us and we’re not there in time to stop that, then I would make eye contact with my child. I would come close and acknowledge right there. “Oh, it looks like you weren’t quite ready for that hug.” And hopefully the adult will get the hint. And if not, I mean, depending on our relationship with this person, I would really focus on reflecting with my child afterwards: “I saw the way that you looked when grandma came in so close and hugged you like that, so quickly. And you weren’t ready for that, it seemed like you didn’t want that. I noticed. Is that true?” See what they say. And then, “I know, that’s a hard one. I’m sorry I wasn’t there to help. And you can try putting your hand out and saying, ‘No thanks, not now.’ But I know that’s so hard to do and that’s why I’m always going to try to be there to help support you.”

And if this is going the other way around, that my child is going over to a stranger and climbing up on them or touching them, even if that person welcomes it, I am not comfortable with that. Maybe some people are, but I would see that as my child hasn’t quite learned to respect someone’s personal space and boundaries. So I would, even if the adult is excited and happy the child is doing this, I would say, “You know, we don’t know them quite that well yet, and I’m going to help you say hi another way.” And maybe I’d even pick my child up, gently move them. Again, no scolding, no shaming, just finding an organic way to teach this boundary. And then let’s say they’re bothering grandma or a friend of ours or their uncle or somebody that we know, I would stop them, even if that adult was too uncomfortable to say anything, which they often are in those situations, I would stop my child: “Ah, you really want to climb on grandma, but I don’t think she wants that. That’s not comfortable.” And while I’m saying these things, I’m always taking the action first— blocking. Gently but confidently blocking.

Now why do I not believe in really making a very big lesson out of this, making a big deal out of it in the moment? “That’s not okay. You know that’s not okay. You shouldn’t do that.” Well, obviously if we do that with an adult, they’re going to feel hurt and maybe angry and defensive and that’s just unnecessary and not as effective for teaching as when we have the attitude of trying to be a little more accepting of everyone’s point of view and where they are in their journey, child or adult. With children, as I mentioned earlier, it’s really about not stripping away that one important social tool that they need, which is self-confidence. It’s a learning tool for everything actually, but especially for socializing because that is such a challenging area of learning for children and sometimes for us as adults as well.

And another reason not to make a big to-do out of these things or to keep reminding kids to always tell people when they need their space is that children might impulsively tend to get a little more stuck testing this out with us, or maybe even kind of using it against us, unconsciously. Like demanding, “I need space!” when we’re just trying to stop them from hitting us, or we’re needing to help them stay safe and appropriate in some other way. They do this because, as I discussed in my recent podcast, Parent Traps, we’ve made it clear that this is a big important lesson to us that we want them to learn. They are so brilliant and so intuitive that they sense what a vulnerable place that is, and they can get stuck checking that out again and again.

So it’s just going to be easier on us if we teach in the best way, which is relaxed, confident, mellow, little tips, and being there physically right away to help. Not expecting that we’re going to be able to talk a child into or out of behavior. They usually need more. And they’ll show us that by continuing the behavior. They need the physical help and they also need to be seen and accepted and have their point of view understood as much as possible. That’s what keeps them open to this or any kind of guidance that we’re giving them. That’s what makes them get this faster.

And what happens if we’re not able to stay calm and gentle? If we lose our cool around these behaviors, or maybe we make a big, pointed lesson out of them. No worries. All we need to know is that it’ll just take them a few more times to absorb that particular lesson.

Finally, the most important part of this learning —last, but definitely not least— is in the way that we interact with our children, respecting their space and boundaries and defending ours. That’s the most powerful teacher of all, because it’s teaching and modeling all at once. We show respect to our children when we communicate while taking physical actions. Ideally beginning when they’re infants, when we need to pick them up, take their hand, all the details around their care, like with diaper changes, combing their hair, wiping their nose, and respecting their feelings around those moments whenever possible. Maybe they like us to do it a certain way, “Comb my hair this way, not that way.” So taking that in and also being aware that if we’re tickling or roughhousing, it’s easy to go overboard and tough for a child to stop us or say no, because we’re their parents and they want to have a good time with us. When we’re happy, they want to be happy. They want to match our enthusiasm, they have such a strong instinct to connect. And the laughter that they have in these situations isn’t necessarily a sign that they’re enjoying the experience. So that’s just something to consider.

The other part of this is defending our own personal space. And I often receive questions that this applies to: What do I do? My toddler’s grabbing my breast or demanding to be held or carried when I don’t want to at that time or they’re bouncing up and down on my lap. Or even towards the end of the first year sometimes, an infant will keep grabbing our hair when we’re holding them or hurting us somehow during nursing. And we have every right— we not only have every right, but it’s the most loving thing, not harming, to let our baby know that we can’t hold them or continue nursing while they’re doing that. And perhaps we just have an individual preference around the way that we like to be touched or not touched, or we don’t like to be touched much at all. We’re allowed —we’re more than allowed, we’re actually required— to say a loving no to these behaviors. “Hmm, I don’t like that. I’m going to stop you.” Because if we don’t do that and children sense our discomfort but we’re not saying no when it comes to our physical space or personal needs, then they can get confused around boundaries for themselves and other people. So not only is this a vital opportunity for teaching, it’s self-care as well, I mean, it’s more than self-care, it’s survival as a parent in this relationship. And it’s honesty, it’s being personally honest with the most important person to be honest with, which is our child. They know the difference when we’re not.

So trust yourself as a person and as a teacher and a helper for your child and other children. They need help and they can’t help themselves. Defending and understanding personal boundaries takes time and repeated lessons, but children will learn these things this way. Every child I’ve worked with has.

And for those who haven’t yet checked out my No Bad Kids Master Course, I demonstrate these examples I’ve given and many, many more. So you can see my demeanor, my inflections, my attitude. And the feedback I’m getting is that this aspect of the course is especially helpful.

Thank you all so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Teaching Kids About Personal Space appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Mental Health Starts in Infancy (with Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m hosting infant mental health and infant-parent relationship expert Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon. Angela’s also a fellow RIE Associate and now serves on their board, after serving a long tenure at the nonprofit Zero to Three. Dr. Fisher-Solomon has worked on national projects on home visiting, family childcare, Early Head Start, and more.

Today we’ll be discussing what infant mental health really means. It might not be what you think. So, what is it? What is it not? Why is it important? And what can we do to nurture it? Which includes understanding secure attachment, stimulation, infant emotions, and a lot more. I’m really looking forward to this.

Hi, Angela. Welcome to Unruffled.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Good afternoon, Janet. Thank you so much for having me. It is such an honor to be able to sit and chat with you on one of my favorite topics.

Janet Lansbury: Well, the honor’s completely mine, let me tell you. I’m so thrilled to be able to share your wisdom and many years of experience with my listeners. So thank you for taking the time to be here. Like you said, I love this topic. It’s one that isn’t a part of the conversation in parenting as much as a lot of other topics. Why do you think that is? Do you have any thoughts about that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I think families, and particularly parents, often they shy away from the terms infant mental health because people often think about mental health as, Oh my goodness, if you say infant mental health, does that mean that something is quote unquote “wrong” with my baby? And it does not mean that at all. Infant mental health has what we call synonymous definition, which simply means social-emotional development in babies and toddlers, and that’s all it means. It is really just the capacity of a baby or toddler to experience, regulate, and express their emotions. It’s also their ability to form close and secure relationships and really to explore the environment and learn. All within the context of biology, relationships, and culture.

And so, on one hand, that’s a big definition in terms of the field. But to parents, when parents ask me, well, what exactly is infant mental health? I often just simply say, think of it as, how is your child developing their social-emotional skills? And then that leads into attachment and what does that look like? And basically, just how is your child’s overall emotional wellbeing, what does that look like? And then as an infant mental health specialist, we break that down.

Janet Lansbury: So what are some of the important practices that parents should consider engaging in with their babies and what signs from them are showing us that we’re on the right track? Can you talk about that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Infant mental health, I have found, and in my research, really I link it back to what is happening to the baby in utero. Because infant mental health doesn’t just start when the baby is here, right? After the baby is born. It starts with the connections prenatally. So I often like to tell parents it starts there. What kind of pregnancy did you have? How did you feel about the baby? How were your emotions? Because we know that emotions during the journey of pregnancy are sometimes up and down, right?

Then once your beautiful baby has arrived, what is the connection? Because as soon as the baby is born, infants come into the world, as you know, seeking the connection of another human face, particularly the mother, father, or whoever is going to be that primary caregiver in the child’s life. And it often starts out with something as simple as the earliest connection, making eye-to-eye contact with the baby. Touching a newborn is like heaven. And making that up close, eight to 12 inches from the baby’s face so that they know by smells and using their other senses, they know who mom is. And a lot of research says they also know who dad is, particularly if the dad has been able to talk to the baby in the womb on a regular basis. So parents ask, how can I help my infant have a strong social-emotional capacity? I tell them, by building a healthy, secure attachment relationship, which in turn builds trust and security.

And in my research, which looks at confidence-building in babies, it’s really this —and we know this, you and I often talk about it in many different scenarios— the importance of going slow with an infant. Your language, your eye rapid movement, the tempo of your body language, babies pick up everything. And what we consider to be small nuances of how you interact with a baby, how you observe the baby. And that consistency really in fact is building the necessary skills for strong social-emotional capacity, which ultimately means you are building strong social-emotional skills, which lead to strong cognitive skills and so on and so forth. Because it is strengthening that particular developmental domain and the baby’s brain.

Janet Lansbury: Because it’s giving them that sense of calm and security that allows them to—

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Regulate.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, and then therefore have the capacity to develop cognitive skills and these other skills.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. I mean, everyone wants their child to do well academically. Even if a baby is, let’s say two, three days old, it’s natural for a parent to think, I want my child to be able to read before they get to kindergarten. Or, what should I do? How can I make them and help them to have strong cognitive skills? You know, we as adults, we have societal pressures. So as parents we can’t help but start thinking further ahead. And you know, Magda Gerber used to often say about being in the moment, but it is understanding, and in the world of infant mental health we zero in on: to what degree is slow. Observation, being able to understand the developmental cues, being able to identify them, being able to read them consistently, and being able to meet the emotional needs of the baby. 

An example is, when we talk about regulation, if your baby is crying and you may come close, you have the best of intentions, but in fact the baby already could be overly stimulated and it turns its head away from you because it actually needs to shut down and have a little quiet time. So infant mental health is about helping parents to identify those cues and come alongside the baby, in a sense, so that the baby is dictating what it needs and the parent is better able to give them that.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. And that example of overstimulation, that’s one that’s I think so commonly misunderstood. And there are so many products that we’re offered as parents to maybe make our child smarter or learn faster or be less bored or whatever, that actually are very overstimulating. And I know that this idea of how sensitive babies are to stimulation, that got away from me a lot, even with my third baby. Because we can’t gauge that on our own stimulation needs, they’re so much more sensitive.

And it’s like what you were saying about slowing down, too. We can’t be with a baby in a way that’s really going to be helpful to them if it’s on our adult pace. Magda Gerber and Pikler talked about this a lot, and Heidelise Als, who did so much research with preemies, talked about how jarring it is for them when we’re on an adult, more rapid pace in the way that we talk to them or handle them. So I feel like those things, maybe there’s not enough information and support and reminders out there that babies are… their newness to the world and all this incredible learning potential that they have, they’re so open to the world and yes, everything is more to them. They need so much less than we think.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: You know, infants, their right brain develops much earlier than the left side of their brain. And the right brain is what controls their emotional development. Yes, they come into the world with over 70 billion brain cells. So they come into the world very, very smart. Their senses are heightened. But to your point, the one thing that is not always considered is, although they are simply brilliant and competent little people, their ability to take in information, it must be slow.

You know, parents often wonder, Why do I have to repeat myself, even to my toddler? I explained to them, because it takes them probably around the third time, sometimes the fourth time for it to register. You know, let’s say if it’s a toddler who is only speaking a few words, but if you are using hand gestures and you speak slow enough and use eye contact, even an infant, they’re going to understand you.

And I’ve had parents challenge me, that there’s no way my four month old can understand me and I give them little experiments. Yes. Why? You know, you speak to the baby in a certain way and then I begin to show the parent, Look at her eyes, look at her hands starting to open and close. Her breathing is increasing. She knows I’m explaining something. Parents sometimes think that they’re just little nuances, but they in fact have great meaning.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. That’s what I say to parents too because I often get that, Oh, what’s the point? And, They can’t understand. And I suggest, Try it. And people have come back to me and said, Oh my gosh, okay, I saw it. I saw my baby registering what I said, or I saw them responding in a way that proved to me or seemed to prove to me… It’s still freaky, right? They understood what we were talking about.

About stimulation… I was just imagining, for us it would be we’re in a stadium, really noisy, there’s all this stimulation, all this stuff going on. Which is I think how babies must feel just being there in the world. Because they’re taking everything in—every sound, every sight, everything all at once. And then yes, if we were in that stadium with all of that stimulation and all that sound and all that sight, then it’s going to take a little while for you to communicate with us because we have to tune some of that out just to be able to focus on what you’re saying. I don’t know if that’s a proper analogy, but that’s what came to my mind.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: It absolutely is a wonderful analogy. And I teach on infant brain development to college and graduate students and I often say to them that, there’s understanding brain development, you’re neuroscientists or something like that. But for a parent, they don’t necessarily need to know it to that degree. They need to know how a baby’s brain works, in that a baby’s brain literally depends on the social interaction in order for the right side of that brain to flourish and for the neurons and the connections to get strong enough. And to understand, to your point, that quieter environment, it gives the baby the opportunity to regulate itself. It’s hard, even for adults, for us to regulate our own emotions and our bodies and our senses if we’re, what did you say, in the middle of a stadium. You know, our ability as adults to be intentional, physically, emotionally. Why do we think infants are any different?

And if anything, because they haven’t been in the world that long. They’ve been inside the womb, this really safe, dark but comforting place where only they’re really dealing with their mother’s heartbeat. Even if it’s a water birth, however the child enters the world, it is still a shock. Because now they’ve got lights and they’ve got people moving around, they can’t really see clearly. So it’s a lot for their brain. And again, the right side is much more developed than the left side. The left side holds cognitive and language skills, it doesn’t really develop until closer to age one. So the right side is working a lot and babies need consistent but quieter sounds to begin to allow them to kind of regulate and get their own body rhythms. And we talk about, from Magda, telling a baby what you’re going to do before you do it and pausing and waiting.

All of those practices really help babies, it gives them time. And parents often find that if you give your baby that time and that consistency and you’re going slowly, you literally are helping them to build their social-emotional capacity. Because as they grow, everything is going to start to increase, right? And become a little bit faster. There’s such a big difference between an infant, a toddler, and then a preschooler who’s running around and jumping and going from one thing to the next because they have the capacity to do that. Between age four and five, Oh, he can sit and listen to a preschool teacher. Or the things where when you need them to wait, well, when you go slow in the beginning you’ve been building their social-emotional development, a.k.a. their mental health, they are better able to regulate their bodies. And typically it affects their sleep schedule, their sleep cycles, their feeding cycles, and their play cycles with their loving parents.

Janet Lansbury: Yes.

I wanted to ask you about something because when you brought it up, I got a little feeling of uh-oh, and I’m sure other parents worry about this. You talked about how our feelings around our pregnancy, and of course we all know —and some of us have experienced— postpartum depression, or that anxiety as a new parent or just after the birth of a baby. Well, we can’t help how we feel if we’re depressed during pregnancy, right? I had a very difficult third pregnancy. I think I was maybe too old to be having a baby, I don’t know. But I had a lot of negative feelings.

You know, there’s very extreme things that parents go through. And there are also situations where of course babies are premature, their brain hasn’t finished fully developing as a full-term baby’s would. And then there are situations where there’s adoption and the baby has, I believe, a sense of loss of leaving the person that smelled and spoke like that, that they heard in the womb, and going to someone else. What do we do if that was our situation? How can we help our babies to process that? Is it just being even more sensitive the way you’re talking about? Or can we expect certain things from them that we might not expect from a full-term baby where everybody was emotionally healthy all through it?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Sometimes parents are not able, they don’t necessarily arrive in the best situation. Or to your point, if in this case that there is a mother going through postpartum and she may not have the capacity to give her child the nurturing that it needs. That’s why this field is so critically important because a mom or a family needs support, no one can parent in a vacuum. And if someone has gone through various levels of postpartum depression or other adverse experiences that impede their ability to parent in a healthy manner for their baby.

Babies, unfortunately, they don’t really wait. You know, they grow every day. But they are incredibly resilient. And in the families that I work with, I often explain that you meet your child where they are. There’s no such thing as a perfect parent, we all make mistakes. And whatever the situation is, if you are able to get some kind of support, like if it’s postpartum, they have the amazing Postpartum Support International, that’s doing some amazing work around the country for not just mothers, but they have family groups, they have groups for fathers, they have LGBQT groups, different cultural groups.

Because, you know, you could have one vision for how your family’s going to look when you’re getting ready to welcome a new baby or a child into your family, and it may not turn out that way. So there are many different groups that I try to guide parents to. If I’m not mistaken, there’s probably infant mental health specialists and organizations in almost every state in the country. And many times those resources are free of charge.

And then if you ask, How does that affect the baby? You can only hope that there could be someone there, even if it can’t be the mother or the father, that it could be someone who could still give that infant a nurturing experience until the parent is ready. And when the parent is ready to create the bond, it’s still going to continue to have a major effect on the child’s life. If it can be in utero, if it can be from day one, that’s fantastic, but it might not be until age three.

I tell parents, you do the best that you can and if you’re trying to strive to get better, then a child’s brain is incredibly resilient and flexible. So it is not to think that just because there’s extenuating circumstances, that Is my baby just lost if I can’t provide this slow, nurturing, comforting? No. I would encourage parents to try to get support and resources. And in the world of infant mental health, we have something called prevention and promotion because of course if we can help offset some of those challenges, it’s going to be better for the baby and it’s going to be better for the parenting journey. So earlier is always helpful. Not always possible, but wherever you get the help at whatever time, it’s about the health and wellbeing of both the adult, of the caregiver, and the baby.

Janet Lansbury: That’s very helpful. So let’s say, in my situation where I had a lot of dark moods during the pregnancy, but then once I had my baby, I actually felt really guilty about the dark moods because he was just so vulnerable and adorable and, you know, there was no way I was not going to love him. He had a lot of crying, whatever that was. Colic, I don’t know if it was his digestive system. Not during the day, but in the night he would have lots and lots of crying and I tried a lot of things, a chiropractor, my diet, all of these things.

But I sometimes wonder if, do babies express those feelings that they absorb from us in the womb or maybe in the early days after birth if we’re depressed? Are there different ways that babies express that and process it out of their system with us? Or is that just as variable as all the different types of children there are, with their different capacities? Or are there some themes? An adoption situation, maybe, where they had that loss and now they’re in this really positive situation though? Is there anything that that looks like that we could look out for? Or is it just very individual for each child?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: You know, I get asked that question a lot. And one of the reasons I chose developmental psychology is because my outlook on babies, it’s from a scientific perspective, yes, but it’s also from a holistic and a spiritual perspective. Babies do because of genetic makeup, right? And stress that’s internalized in different hormones that we absorb in our bodies and so does that then get passed to our babies in the womb? Or if it’s an adoptive baby, is that baby coming with a genetic pattern for its emotional framework? In a sense, yes, the science has shown that babies do come, in a sense, with a genetic blueprint. And that’s under the realm of biology, right? But then there’s nurture. And the research shows nurture —which is, again, giving your baby the support it needs once you’re able to identify some of the issues— is stronger.

And so let’s say with you, your son may have had these issues. Or if it’s an adoptive child, they’re going to have some residuals because they had a birth mother at some point. But what I tell parents again is that the power of love is at the core and the center of babies. I know it sounds simple on one hand, but it does have the ability for recovery. If you’re the birth parent, if you have sad feelings that heighten your level of cortisol in your brain and the hormones or stress hormones, and your baby is born extra-irritable, it just seems incredibly tense and it can’t seem to regulate. There are steps in infant mental health in identifying what’s happening. Why is the baby tense? Is it muscle tone, is it irritable? So there are different screenings. And once those are identified, then we can come up with a plan to help a parent bring the stress level of the baby down.

If babies who’ve suffered, let’s say with alcohol syndrome, they recover. It takes work, but they recover and they begin to thrive. So yes, it’s an individual’s situation for both the adult and the baby, but just because it’s not an ideal situation doesn’t mean that the baby has to be quote unquote “stuck”. Does that make sense?

Janet Lansbury: It totally does, yeah. I love that.

You brought up cortisol. What should parents know about cortisol? I know there’s a lot of mixed advice put out there around if your baby cries or if your baby cries for too long or too often, that’s a dangerous thing because of the cortisol. What is the science on that?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Cortisol is a stress hormone. We have it, it’s in our bodies, and it’s there for a reason. It’s kind of a measuring stick and it helps to regulate other functions in our bodies. I agree with you that parents don’t quite understand about cortisol and crying in particular. But for babies, crying is healthy. It’s a way to express emotions. The challenge is understanding, where is it coming from? If all the basic needs have been met, sometimes there’s not going to be anything that you can do because the infant is also sometimes trying to regulate itself. However, as a parent, if you feel that, okay, I’ve done everything and my baby is inconsolable, then I would say call your pediatrician to make sure that there’s not anything going on internally. But crying in and of itself, again, once all of the babies’ needs have been met…

And sometimes parents aren’t quite sure as to, When should I hold my baby? Should I rock them? Should I do this, should I do that? To keep them from crying, you have to try to help the baby to regulate. And sometimes it’s taking your baby’s clothes off, warming up your hands. I’m a certified infant massage educator and what we do is called holding sacred space, speaking very quietly in your baby’s ear, looking at them in eye contact. I know you’re upset. I know it’s hard, but I am here for you. And same repeated soft motions that are rhythmic. Typically I found they work, bouncing and all of those things. If the baby is already overly stimulated, then bouncing them is sometimes only going to make it worse and then the crying becomes elevated. So the cortisol level in terms of stress has more to do with prolonged crying and not giving an infant acknowledgement or recognition that someone is there.

Janet Lansbury: And hopefully someone that can be as calm as possible, right? So we’re not adding to it with our own emotion for the baby to absorb.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: And you brought up an excellent point because when you know you’re stressed. In some of my parent-infant classes, I will say, It’s okay. Step over to the side, count to 10 or 20, take deep breaths. And I’ll give them a mindfulness exercise. And then come in. Because if you’re not regulated, it’s only going to add to the baby’s stress. If you’re stressed, then the baby’s going to be stressed. And if their baby’s not stressed, the baby will then become stressed. They basically mirror you and they mirror your emotional capacity.

Janet Lansbury: I love that you teach that in your classes. Can you talk a little about this tool that you’re developing? The FIOT, the Fisher Infant Observation Tool?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Called the FIOT, it’s been a baby of mine for the past 20 years. I was inspired by Magda’s work in talking about confidence and then there’s some other theorists that I researched that also talked about confidence, and Dr. Pikler. I was inspired and I wanted to look at confident behavior as an action verb.

So I looked at adult insecurity. They didn’t just start that way. We always go back into the world of infancy and early childhood. And so what I did was I studied insecurity and fear. Where is it rooted? What are the elements and the factors that contribute to confident and insecure behavioral patterns? And that is the FIOT. So it is a paper parent observation tool. But I created it to empower parents because for me I said, well it’s great in psychology and nurses and pediatricians, we get all these different screening tools and most of them are not culturally sensitive. So I created the FIOT.

Janet Lansbury: You created one that is.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I had some amazing mentors who I think are far more brilliant than I am and more experienced. And we did the research and looked at, what are the differences in parenting styles, the differences in how we see babies and what does that look like across various cultural groups? And how can we ultimately bring this into the hands of parents to empower them? So the goal is to empower parents. It’s not a measuring tool, it’s more of an identifier. If your baby scores a particular number, here are some strategies to help you at home.

So if your baby is starting to show some insecure behavioral patterns, this helps you to offset that behavior. So you don’t have to wait until your child is three to start to wonder, Why is my child so fearful? Other than separation anxiety and stranger anxiety, which are all typically developing behaviors. So the FIOT begins to identify what that looks like. And it has gone through two levels of scientific testing and it has very, very strong scores. We are now in the final phase. We’re constantly looking for funding and perhaps partners at some point, because now it’s ready to be taken around the country. It needs a larger sample population before it’s ready for publication. But ultimately that is the goal.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, you’re amazing.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: It’s been a long process.

Janet Lansbury: I mean, congratulations. Especially because it’s been a long process. So does this also help parents notice if there’s neurodivergence or other issues like that? Can they notice anything like that at the infant stage?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. Even though it is created for typically developing babies, people have asked me, would this be a tool if my child was on the autism spectrum? Just as an example. And what it has shown, because of the identifiers, so far is that it picks up on things that are not consistent, which in turn propels a parent to be able to wonder a lot sooner than later. And it has the chart, you know, typically developing should be doing this. And it also gives room for varying cultural groups. So how a particular culture, what their outlook is on parenting practices. It can be tweaked here and there to make room for that.

Janet Lansbury: It sounds like it might also do something that— this was one of my favorite gifts from Magda, she taught us to see this ourselves and help other parents see this. That it’s not just, My child isn’t doing this yet, it’s, But look what they are doing. They’re doing this. You didn’t realize that was a thing. Well guess what? It’s a thing. They’re sustaining attention on something. Or the way that they’re shifting their body. They’re maybe not rolling, but they’re preparing themselves to be able to do that, moving their head, extending themselves, turning on their side. You know, I love how we’re able to show parents in the classes and ease their mind that your baby’s really making some good progress here. Look at all the things they’re able to do that you never even thought meant anything.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Absolutely. And the FIOT doesn’t make a comparison and it allows parents to, you know, you don’t take it just once, right? You could take it more than once. So to your point, it’s not as though you’re looking for anything. It’s really training parents on how to observe without judgment. It’s almost like writing in a diary. You know, if you’re anyone that’s trying to lose weight, you weigh yourself and then you might weigh yourself again two, three weeks later. Then if there’s a big enough difference, it gives you time to pause and possibly correct if you need to correct something. And so it’s really the awareness and the awareness early on would in turn help babies and toddlers before they get to preschool. So prior to the age of three, to be able to offset. So it’s the awareness, empowering parents and then allowing them to make their own informed decision. The FIOT will give parents the opportunity and the ability to identify their own baby’s cues.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. Well, I’m excited for this to come out. So keep going.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: I will be sharing it at the World Association for Infant Mental Health in Dublin. I don’t share the tool, but I will be sharing different posters about the research and all of that.

Janet Lansbury: Wonderful. Well thank you so much for sharing so many wonderful tips and your perspective and insights. I really, really appreciate it. And I of course personally enjoy talking about one of my favorite topics with an Associate.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Yes. And if anyone wants to learn more about the FIOT, they could visit fiotbabiesconsulting.com.

Janet Lansbury: That’s F I O T babiesconsulting.com. Great. And is that where we can learn more about your work personally too?

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: There are small-group classes, you know, similar to RIE classes, Resources for Infant Educators, but these classes deal with a lot of psychology, things that might come up for parents, as well as deepening cultural differences in how they see their children. So yes, there’s a whole series of components. The screening tool is just one of them.

Janet Lansbury: I want to take one of those classes. Maybe with my grandchild someday.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Listen Janet, when we get to the next level, you would be an honored guest.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, thank you. Good luck with all of this. I feel like you’re on your way to helping even more parents than you’ve already helped and more babies. A whole generation.

Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon: Thank you so much.

Janet Lansbury: Thank you.

You can learn more about Angela’s work and resources at: FIOTbabiesconsulting.com

And please check out some of my other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in.

Both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting. You can get them in e-book at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com and in audio at audible.com. And you can even get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the LINK in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Mental Health Starts in Infancy (with Dr. Angela Fisher-Solomon) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Our Fears as Parents – Real and Imagined (with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson)”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today it’s my great pleasure to host psychotherapist and brain researcher Dr. Tina Payne Bryson. Tina has written a whole series of bestselling books with psychiatrist and educator Dr. Dan Siegel. I’m sure you’ll recognize some of these titles: The Whole-Brain Child, No-Drama Discipline, The Power of Showing Up, and The Yes Brain. All classics. Tina and Dan’s perspective has informed and inspired a whole generation of parents, and it appears more generations to come, as parent coaches these days frequently reflect Tina’s and Dan’s work in their advice. Unfortunately, not always crediting them as their sources and as the true groundbreakers, which is a disturbing trend I’m hoping will shift soon. But that’s another story.

Today, Tina and I will be discussing how to navigate our fears as parents. I’m excited for her to share some of her thoughts and wisdom with us.

Hi, Tina. Welcome back to the podcast.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Thank you so much for having me. You’re one of my favorites, so I’m always so honored to come and chat with you. It’s like, I don’t even know if anyone’s going to listen, I’m just here to talk to you. I’m so excited!

Janet Lansbury: Aww, well I hope some people listen because I don’t want them to waste this opportunity to listen to you. There’s about a million different things that I would love to hear from you on and talk to you about. Your work has been life-changing for a lot of people, including me, so it’s really hard to narrow it down. But I heard you, actually it was on your Instagram, I saw a reel that you did where you described so amazingly —I’ve never heard it sort of broken down this way— you described a thought process that we can use as parents for something that almost every parent I know has, and that’s fear. Fear about our children taking steps towards independence in different ways. Fear about them taking risks.

I guess a few months ago there was an article in The Atlantic by Erika Christakis about sleepovers and how this is something that a lot of parents are avoiding these days and the reasons why, but also the reasons why there were benefits to allowing children to do this. So that’s kind of where you started off, and I think that’s probably one of the more complicated risks for parents to consider for a lot of reasons. But you offered this wonderful thought process to figure out what are the benefits, what are the drawbacks? So how do we navigate all these kinds of risks?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: I think the first thing to think about is why do we feel fear as parents? There are studies that show that when we become parents, our brain changes in many ways. And one of the ways that it changes is that it makes us more hyper-alert to danger. It makes us more sort of scanning the environment to watch for any potential threats. And so biologically we can become more sort of savvy or sensitive to fears. And this is really a good thing. This allows us to be protective of our young, to help them survive and do all of these things. So fear itself is an emotion and emotions are important. Emotions tell us things like, Pay attention to this. Something is relevant here or something is worth paying attention to.

But fears often can be irrational. I mean, any kind of emotion can be irrational. And so they definitely should have a voice. Our emotions, and particularly our fears, should have a voice. We don’t want to vilify them. They’re important. However, they should not be the decision-maker.

So when we think about our children taking risks and we feel fear about those risks, and obviously that changes so much over our child’s development. When they’re really little, you worry about bumps and bruises or choking or water safety, those kinds of things. And as they get older, we have fears about their social relationships and we worry about sexual abuse. As they get older, we worry about them driving or being in other people’s cars and we worry about alcohol. And I’ll tell you, my oldest is now 23 and he’s an adult, and I have another adult who’s 20, and still a 16-year-old. And the fears don’t stop, you know, even when they’re adults.

So I think what’s really important for us to think about is we want autonomy to be the end result, we want to raise our children to be able to leave us and to be able to navigate the world. But yet our fears often make us, as parents, fight against supporting our child’s autonomy. And it’s not that we do it intentionally. It’s like, Oh, I don’t know, I think that seems too risky. Or, I don’t know, I’m too anxious about that. Or, That just seems like a bad idea. And so we often stop them from taking steps towards autonomy. And sometimes that’s the right call, but other times it’s really our fear that’s in the driver’s seat. So that’s sort of the background around the role that fear is playing.

Now, how do we navigate it? Well, one other thing to keep in mind is that when we feel fearful, we’re worried about a risk our child is taking or that they’re being in a position where there’s something that’s outside of our control. It’s a really uncomfortable feeling as a parent to know that we can’t control a hundred percent of our child’s safety all the time, and that’s true for the rest of our lives, even when they’re parents themselves. But when we become fearful about something, it makes us, I think the word is myopic, I don’t know. But it really makes us focus in on that fear. And what happens is that we often lose sight of context, or in this case other things that we should be paying attention to. So our fears or our emotions make us really hyper-focus sometimes.

When we take away opportunities for our kids to take risks or to problem-solve or to experiment with failure or having to be uncomfortable in a situation, when we become so hyper-focused on preventing a risk or something dangerous or tricky or uncomfortable from happening, we lose sight of something else that’s a risk. And that is that they are not getting the opportunity to move toward autonomy and confidence. You know, I always say the resilience formula is a challenge plus support equals resilience. A challenge without any support leads to fragility. But that’s only for big-time challenges and adversities. What I would say is that the way we become resilient is by practicing dealing with difficult things.

For example, I remember the first time I sent my son off to sleepaway camp and I was terrified. I was worried about so many things. I mean, I was worried about everything from ticks to sexual abuse to homesickness to bullying. I mean, I was worried about everything. And I remember that moment and walking him through the airport and knowing that he was feeling uncomfortable, he was leaving us for a long period of time, like two weeks, the longest he’d ever been away from us. And then I remember going, You know what? I don’t know why I’m acting like my child being uncomfortable is a bad thing. Because I know that a little bit of feeling of anxiety, or What if I get homesick?, or What if something happens and I don’t have my parents there?, that sitting in that discomfort —knowing that there are people around him to take care of him and he’s in a safe-enough environment— that that discomfort is actually one of the best things for him.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And then how did you know, like in that instance, what gave you the confidence that he was even ready for that challenge in the first place?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah, I mean obviously every kid is different. So we need to really know our kids, tune into them. And I won’t get into all the fancy terminology and child development, but I think that the idea’s sort of the Goldilocks. You want experiences to be a challenge where it’s not so much that it’s going to be traumatic or overwhelm them where they go, Oh, that was such a huge step. That was so terrible, I’m not taking any chances. Right? Because that’s counterproductive. But if something’s easy, then they may not gain as much from it. So we really want the just-right challenge, where we trust that our kid is going to be able to navigate through it.

And for some kids they can go headfirst into something they’ve never done and they do great. Other kids, like my firstborn, he really needed scaffolding. When he was really little and he didn’t want to walk up to a group of kids at soccer practice, he did better getting there first and then greeting kids as they came. But over time, as he had practice sitting in uncomfortable situations, he had the ability to know, Oh, I can handle this. Right?

Janet Lansbury: Right. But I just want to point out, so what you didn’t do, you didn’t walk in with him and say, Oh, here’s all the kids, and Everybody, can you say hi to him? And you didn’t scaffold that way, that would’ve been too much, right?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: That’s right. And I think that the thing too is— let’s say it this way, the brain is an association machine. So when we have repeated experiences, or reps, that are positive, we want to do more of it. If it’s negative, we often want to stay away from it, we avoid it. And so what happens is we want to give our kids these experiences, say going to soccer practice, where it’s positive enough. So he felt really tentative walking into a group of kids. So I’m like, Okay, well let’s take a couple steps closer. Or we got there early enough that he wasn’t just having to walk into a whole crowd. And this is when he’s like five, he’s really little. And then he’s like, Oh, I kind of like these kids, or This is fun and I want to go back. And then he’s like, I could handle walking up to bigger and bigger groups. So we want to think about these repeated experiences we give our kids, knowing that the reps that they’re getting are really wiring their brains.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, for sure. Just going back to the question I asked you about, how did you know he was ready? So I don’t know if this is naive on my part or I’ve just been lucky with my three kids. My oldest is 30 by the way, and then I have a 26-year-old and a 21-year-old. Because I had sort of trusted them all along to make choices, even as infants, I trusted if they expressed a desire to go to sleepaway camp —and they did, and my oldest one did way younger than I really thought she would— that was a sign to me that she’s ready, she wanted to do it. I didn’t have to talk her into it or try to make it sound fun for her or make it happen. She wanted to go. And I was able to listen to that and it was a sign to me that she was ready.

And I think your son being on that team, I’m sure he wanted to do it. That’s the biggest hurdle, that your child is sensing that they are ready. And then from there, you were able to have the presence of mind to realize you could get him there early and that would ease the social part of it and everything else. But yeah, I trust that it comes from them.

You know, when I was listening to your talk about navigating the fears, I was thinking, okay, dialing it all the way back, the population I work with often is babies. I do parent-infant classes and people bring their children and we just watch them play. And the floor is wood and the babies are moving and they’re rolling. And oftentimes, and I remember this myself as a parent, it’s scary when your baby’s rolling and they’re going to bonk their head on the wood floor. It’s hard for parents to let that happen. But what happens is, you know, you were talking about the autonomy and the autonomy comes from what they’re learning, right? So yeah, they do bump their head a little bit, but then you see the next time they do it, or maybe they decide to bump it one more time a little bit more softly. But then you see the next time, and we can point this out to parents in the classes, they’re lifting their head a little and they’ve already learned how to navigate that.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: But if we never gave them the opportunity, they wouldn’t learn that. And then the first time they went down, maybe older, now they’re on their knees, they’d hit their head much harder because they didn’t have that opportunity to learn those things. We didn’t let them have that opportunity because we were too scared.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: And we know that children learn best —we have decades of research— by doing it themselves. Of course they learn from what’s modeled and what they observe. They’re incredibly perceptive, even our babies and toddlers are incredibly perceptive. But what’s so fascinating when you really tune in and do the kind of amazing work that you do and you watch it and you can really observe at a place of curiosity, and you see those micro-moments of learning unfolding in front of you. It’s not just the lifting of the head in your example that they’re learning, but there’s also so much implicit messaging that goes on in how we parent.

And one of the ways I talk about that is that we’re meaning-makers for our children. So let’s say the baby rolls over and bonks their head and the parent gasps, Aaah!, and runs over and is like, Are you okay? And brings all kinds of big anxiety emotions to that. The child has learned in that moment, Oh, that must have been terrible. That caused a huge reaction in my parent that is frightening. And so we create meaning around that. Whereas otherwise, if we say, Oh, you bumped your head, you know, you hit it there, and we are not overreacting and maybe we help them make sense of that moment. Or we don’t even narrate at all.

Janet Lansbury: If they’re fine, yeah, if they’re fine, we don’t have to. If they have a reaction, then yeah, I would for sure say something. Yeah.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yes. They really are genius, even in their early, early months, in how perceptive they are about their own bodies and about what’s happening in the world around them. That idea of allowing them to take risks is what allows them to learn.

You know, I’m thinking about, there’s this amazing book called Wildhood, it’s about adolescent animals in the wild, by Natterson and I think it’s Barnett. But they talk about how there’s shark-infested waters in northern California that all the animals know not to go in there, except some of the teenage seals and otters go into these shark-infested waters. And what happens is the ones that survive are actually far safer than the ones who never ventured into that, because now they’re more predator-savvy. So what that tells me is, as our kids have bumps and make mistakes and have moments of failure, and as they have trial and error, it makes them safer and allows them to be more savvy about everything in the world.

And so I think this takes us back to what we know is so important about what we are bringing in our own state, our own nervous systems, to these moments, right? We’re watching, Is my child ready? And sometimes kids have their own fears driving it and they’re not saying, I’m ready to go, or I want to go. And we really sometimes have to tune into, What is the right thing for my child in this moment? We want to be child-led as much as possible, but if you have a child who’s anxious and who may not want to take risks. In The Yes Brain, Dan Siegel and I talk about pushing and cushion, that sometimes we have to encourage our children to take a step toward or to try something or something like that. And then other times they need a little bit more nurture, although we want to be nurturing in all of it, but they might need a little bit more comfort or a connection in order to do those things.

Our own internal states are so influential in these moments. So here’s one of the things, Janet, that I try to hold onto as I’m trying to decide, Is my child ready for this? Or, Is this a risk that is worth taking, is this safe enough? Is this okay for me to have them do this? And the question I often have to ask myself, and it takes a lot of self-reflection, is to say, Am I wanting to say no to this risk for my child’s best interest, like truly for their safety? Or am I saying no to this risk or this decision because it makes me feel less anxious?

And if I’m honest with myself, oftentimes I’m saying no or I’m blocking a movement toward autonomy or letting them fail or take a risk or do things by trial and error instead of stepping in and just doing it “right” because I don’t want to sit in the discomfort of my own anxieties or fears. So sometimes we have to sit in discomfort for our child’s best interest. And what’s often in their best interest is to allow them to make mistakes, to try things on their own without our interference.

Janet Lansbury: Right, because our discomfort that we have to sit in often is the discomfort of their frustration, or their upset that they didn’t get the result they wanted. You know, that’s another discomfort that’s really, really hard for most of us when our child is expressing it.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah. I mean, I think about when I was a kid and we would ride our bikes around the neighborhood for hours and we didn’t have cell phones. My mom didn’t know where I was. I mean, I was supposed to stay in the neighborhood and probably most of the time I did. But by the time I had my driver’s license and could leave, she had practiced herself sitting in the discomfort of not having eyes on me every second and not knowing exactly where I was and trusting that I could handle what came up. And I think a lot of times as parents, we don’t have a lot of good practice sitting in the discomfort of allowing our children to move toward autonomy. And a lot of that is because we’re uncomfortable with our children’s discomfort. But we all have to get comfortable with the whole range of human emotions, which includes discomfort.

So, is this really for my child’s best interest or is this really more about me not feeling uncomfortable or my child not feeling uncomfortable? I think that’s such an important thing because, back to what I was saying a minute ago and I don’t think I actually fully made the point, is that there’s this implicit messaging behind everything we do as parents. So if I’m like, Hey honey, it’s chilly outside, grab a coat. And he’s like, No, I’m fine. I remember having this battle with my kid when he was like six, my oldest, and I’d be like, No, it really is cold. You’re going to really need a jacket. And he’d be like, Mom, I’m fine. And it took me a few times to finally realize, you know what, first of all, we live in Southern California. If he’s chilly, he’s not going to be harmed, right? He’s not going to have frostbite. And what I was saying in insisting that he take a coat was, first of all, because I get chilly and kids run a lot warmer and I wasn’t really honoring what his system needed. But I also didn’t want him to feel cold. And that would’ve been totally fine. And then that would’ve taught him the lesson far better than me constantly being on him.

But here’s what was really happening. He was getting the message from me that, I don’t trust that you know what you need. I don’t trust that you can handle when things aren’t perfectly bubble-wrapped for you. So I was sending all of these implicit messages, that he couldn’t trust his body, that he couldn’t trust that he could handle whatever challenge came from him not taking the jacket. Now obviously I’m being dramatic around this, but I think the babies are learning much more than, Oh, I’m going to turn my head a little bit so I don’t bump it. They’re also learning that, My grown-up trusts that I can handle my body.

Janet Lansbury: I can figure things out, I can learn myself, I’m able, I’m competent, I can problem solve.Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah. And I actually think it’s a huge contributor, that very point that you just made, it’s a huge contributor, in my opinion as a licensed mental health person, to some of the really very frightening statistics we’re seeing right now about anxiety in kids. And I think part of that is parents treating our children like they are fragile and basically bubble-wrapping them so much that they don’t develop a sense of competency or confidence that they can solve problems, that they can navigate whatever comes their way.

You know, the pandemic was very difficult for everyone, and part of that was because of the unpredictability of the way life was. And unpredictability our brain reads as potential threat. So we really love predictability. Which is one of the reasons I love your podcast title, Unruffled. Because to me that’s such a goal, to be that grounded, connected. You can have big emotions, you can fall apart, and I’ve got you. And it’s not going to ruffle me because I feel confident that you can navigate this challenging situation or these big feelings and I’m here to help you and be there with you and be present with you while you figure it out.

Janet Lansbury: Some people mistake it as, we just act that way. But the whole point is that it’s not pretending, it’s not acting. It’s that trust that we build step-by-step, from the baby rolling over to letting the baby crawl away from us in a safe play area without following them. Being the secure base, literally, and allowing them to come back and forth as the free explorer. Letting them go down the slide. We can spot them as they’re climbing up and we can spot them as they’re coming down. But all those little risks that we take and each time now we’re trusting our child a little bit more. That’s the model that has helped me, that I am trying to teach other parents or help other parents with. These little steps are important because they build on each other and they color the way that you see your child.

You start to perceive your child as capable, they start to feel capable. And then it’s a little bit easier to be unruffled. And also know that they’re going to… You’re such an expert in what happens with the brain when we’re dysregulated and all that— and definitely knowing that that’s a big reason. When children are not at their best, it’s because they can’t be. They’re literally doing the best that they can. So knowing that, too, helps us be unruffled. But anyway, it’s not something to wear, it’s something to feel from the inside out.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: It’s a way of being, really. You know, I mentioned my son going away to sleepaway camp. He was nine at the time when he did that. We did our due diligence, we checked out the camp, we listened to our fears, we mitigated risks, we prepared him. You know, those are the things I say in the video, Pay attention to your fear, listen to it, but don’t let it decide. Do your due diligence. Check out, make sure it’s a safe-enough environment. If it’s a play date, you might want to ask about the family’s rules around things or whatever you feel worried about. And then we want to empower our children so that they can know that they can solve problems and protect themselves in lots of ways.

And I just have to share that the first couple of letters that came from my son when he left were like —and he’s like this athletic kid who’s very private, not really gushy with emotions— but his letters were like Emily Bronte had written them, you know. It was like, I’ve never been more homesick in my life. I’m so sad. And he would, like, he circled a tear on his letter. He’s like, This is my tears, I’m falling asleep. It just destroyed me, right? I didn’t feel unruffled. But he came home after the two weeks and I said, Oh sweetie, your letters, you sounded like you were having such a hard time. And he said, Mom, that was the hardest thing I’ve ever done. I really missed you guys. And then he just got this little smile on his face, this little, like, smirk. And I said, What? And he said, And I did it. And there was a confidence that came from him overcoming that and walking through that. And I’m feeling emotional even as I’m saying it, because it allowed me to see him in a different light. It’s like you were saying, that builds that trust and that movement toward autonomy.

Janet Lansbury: Oh, sorry. I just want to say, wow. The fact that he was able to express those vulnerable feelings to you, that’s what allowed him to move through them and manage being there. And if he wasn’t able to express to you, at least sitting in his own feelings at night, maybe, when he was alone, I’m so homesick. You know, I encouraged my children when they went to college, Let yourself cry. Of course this is hard. Of course you’re homesick. And the fact that your son did that is such a sign of how you raised him to feel safe, even though he wasn’t that type of guy, quote unquote, he felt safe to be that side of himself. I mean, that’s a risk too. But that balance was I’m sure what allowed him to thrive in the camp.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: And it’s a reminder to us, our children internalize the relationship we have with them. Even though he couldn’t see us, he had something felt inside of him of, I know that they’re there and I’m going to see them. This is some of the thing around separation anxiety is that, as development unfolds, they begin to internalize and remember that we’re still there and all of that.

You used the term “secure base” earlier and then what you said just a minute ago is more of a reflection of that. That comes from the attachment literature, I know you know. But the idea of a secure base, I think that secure base is misinterpreted as constantly providing your child with security. But what the attachment literature shows us, and this is 70-plus years of cross-cultural research, it shows us that a secure base where our child knows they can come to us and that we are going to be there for them is also a launching pad.

So when our kids are really little, they may crawl away from us and then look back and make sure we’re still sitting there. Or they may come over and put a hand on our leg and kind of have a little touchpoint, and then they go out and explore a little further and then a little further. And as they get older and more confident and all of that, they know that we are there. And so it’s not supposed to be smothering or holding them close to us to give them security. That’s actually intrusive. Because true security in a relationship between a parent and a child is definitely a launching pad that allows them to feel safe enough that they can go out and explore the world. And so we should not be getting in their way, right?

We want to be communicating to them, with our unruffledness, that, I trust that you can handle this. And when we’re talking about our kids being taken care of by other caregivers or in other families’ homes, that we want to give the sense of, I trust that other people will take care of you, too. It’s not all on us. And when we don’t do that and we get in the way of their autonomy or we freak out about risks or we don’t allow them to problem-solve, what we’re implicitly communicating is, People can’t be trusted. The world is a dangerous place. You know? And so we’re giving so many messages underneath our actions and the words that we say.

Janet Lansbury: Right, that are disempowering and actually get in the way of what we want to teach them, which is that they are safe, they are secure, that they can believe in themselves. One of the most fascinating things to me about parenting is how we’re teaching all the time and often not what we’re trying to teach.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yes. And you know what? That’s good too, right? Again, it’s back to the idea that sometimes the struggles are our best lessons. And as parents, we’re going to mess up at times. But we know that once we make the repair with our children, it’s actually better for the relationship that we’ve walked through the messiness of those moments.

When I’m trying to make a decision about whether or not I’m going to let my kid do something or I’m going to give them the space to wrestle with something or problem-solve or take a risk in some way. So what I walked through in that Instagram video, one is listen to your feelings, but don’t let them decide. Do your due diligence, make sure that you’ve checked out the actual dangers. And then prepare your child, and then feel confident that they are problem-solvers. So I guess another piece I would add that I didn’t say in the Instagram video is to trust your child and trust your child’s development.

But then even when I walk through those steps, sometimes I stay afraid. And so here’s one other thing that really helps me. Often the stuff that I worry about is like, my kid keeps messing up in this way, or they keep having this problem, or they keep having this behavior. And I feel like I’ve already taught them this, why does this keep happening? Will they never learn? And is there something wrong with them? If I will pause and reflect, and let’s say it’s my child is having difficulty being gentle with other kids or something like that, younger kids. That they’re being aggressive on play dates or things like that. If I will say, Okay, let me think back to three months ago or four months ago. And I think back to a good chunk of time, not a day ago, not a week ago, not a month ago, but maybe a few months ago. And I ask myself the question, Is my child having less of this struggle or this challenge or this behavior than they were a few months ago? And usually when I do that I go, Oh, okay, we’re moving in the right direction. I can trust development.

But that’s not an always. I have to say, you know, I think one of the biggest challenges for the work that we do —and I know that you have got to experience this, we might have even talked about this before— development is not linear. For example, when kids are in the four- to six-year-old range, particularly around age five, it’s really common for them to have another burst of separation anxiety. And it seems like a regression, it seems like, oh no, they were having separation anxiety, then they weren’t for a while, now they are again. And we start really worrying. Are they being bullied at school? Are they sick? We start worrying about all these things. But it’s actually not a regression, it’s a progression, because development’s not linear.

It’s not symmetrical either. Meaning they might have a big burst of cognitive development without the emotional development that goes with it quite yet, right? That piece may be lagging in terms of their development and maturity. So what happens for kids in the four- to six-year-old window is they have this amazing cognitive burst where they are now able to imagine scarier things. They have scarier monsters that they can imagine, or they might even be able to start comprehending things like, Well what happens if something happens to my mom or dad? or whatever. So they can start imagining, because of their cognitive burst, more difficult things, but they don’t yet have the emotional development to handle that kind of information or to navigate it well or to be regulated around it. So I think it’s really important to say we should trust development and we hope our kids are moving in the right direction. And usually that’s the case, but sometimes it looks different. So we sometimes have to have an even wider view because development is full of surprises and it’s not always what we expect.

Janet Lansbury: Right, and it makes sense that every step towards more knowledge and more autonomy is also scary, you know, for a child on some level. When a baby is learning how to crawl, then all of a sudden they’re waking up in the night again. Or learning how to walk suddenly, you know, they go through that classic separation anxiety period, Wow, I can get away. I am able to do all these things. I am a separate person. Yikes. That means that I might lose this other person and they might be separate from me. It’s that maturation that creates the fear and it’s par for the course. We don’t have to be afraid of that, but understand it and be sensitive to it of course. But not be ruled by it, like, Okay, I’m going to strap you to me every second because it’s hard for you to be away from me. Maybe I’ll just be away from you shorter periods or I’ll, you know, whatever it is. So yeah, I mean it does make sense. I think that the more they develop, the more there’s a part of them that wants to run back. I mean, I feel that myself as an adult.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: I mean, that’s an attachment need. It really is. When something is a big emotion, whether that’s positive or negative or something’s challenging or something ruffles us or we’re stuck on something, I need my attachment figures. You know, I want to go back to the secure base with my husband or my mom or my best friend or whatever. And that’s an attachment need. In the book The Power of Showing Up, Dan Siegel and I talk about the four S’s, helping kids feel safe and seen. Where they feel understood, soothed, like I’m here to comfort you. I’m going to show up for you. And then over time, when they feel enough safe, seen, and soothed, they develop a security in knowing that even at their worst we’re going to, and I’m going to use your terminology now, we’re going to be unruffled, we’re going to really be there. And that they can count on our presence.

And knowing too that when we’re ruffled or when we become the storm instead of the eye of the storm, those are again opportunities to go and reconnect. I really wanted to teach my boys that they’re responsible for their own behavior no matter what anybody else did, which meant that my apologies couldn’t blame them. And I noticed that I was doing that. I would get really mad and I would yell and then I would say, If you guys had listened and stopped fighting with each other, this wouldn’t have happened. And then I was like, Oh my gosh, I’m just totally blaming my behavior on them. And not only is that manipulative and damaging, but it’s also not what I want to model. So then I had to really be careful and pause before I would apologize. To say something like, I got really angry. I didn’t handle that very well and I didn’t handle that the way I wanted to. Will you forgive me? And I could even state the fact like, You guys were fighting. I felt really angry and I didn’t handle it well.

And even that moment is kind of a moment of sort of messy emotion, right? They have the experience of, Wow, that doesn’t feel really good right now. My mom’s angry or she’s reactive and that doesn’t feel great. Because over and over and over I’ve made repair, they also sit in the security of knowing, Oh, she’s going to come make it right with me. So it actually creates resilience. So anytime we allow them to do things on their own, walk through struggle in an appropriate way, what’s age-appropriate and developmentally appropriate, those are beneficial moments. But I know our instincts are like, Oh, I don’t want you to be uncomfortable.

Janet Lansbury: Right.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: My husband is so much better at stepping back and allowing, allowing them to find their way. And I really have to work against my nature to decide every day to choose to not be what is, honestly, intrusive, to step into their story. I’m part of their story, I’m foundational to the story that they’re building. But it’s their story. It’s hard. I mean, I really have to be intentional all the time.

Janet Lansbury: And finding that healthy separation between us where we’re not taking on responsibilities for feelings of theirs that don’t belong to us and then not asking them to do that on the other end. I was thinking, I recommend everybody follows, if you’re not already following, Tina Payne Bryson on Instagram, you absolutely should and watch this video and all of her videos. She does this wonderful, what is it, Monday Mistakes?

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yes. Mistake Monday.

Janet Lansbury: Mistake Monday. She’s just a wealth of wisdom. I wanted to say though that in regard to the one about the sleepovers and fears, and we didn’t really talk about sleepovers in this podcast. You can listen to what she has to say there. And you got a lot of pushback, which I was expecting because people have had bad experiences or they’ve heard of horrific things happening on sleepovers and it’s just not worth it to them. And I just want to say, as devil’s advocate in a way, that the important thing is the awareness that you talk about: Is this my fear of my own discomfort? Or is this really a fear of the actual risks? Is this just too uncomfortable for me?

And I think sometimes, to be devil’s advocate, we might make the choice, You know what? This is about me and forget it, I’m too afraid, I’m not going to do this. I think that’s an okay choice to make as long as we know that it’s about us so that we can consider, Well maybe this other risk, this one I’m going to allow because I know that I had to do that other one for me and I’m going to allow this one to be my child’s, you know, my child’s education, to build their confidence. I think it’s just the knowing. It’s not that we won’t always give into our fear, but it’s what you said, which is the understanding, the awareness. I feel like a lot of the times as parents, that’s everything, that we’re aware.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Totally agree with you. I mean, I couldn’t agree more. You know, sometimes we may look and go, You know what, I can’t tell if this is in my child’s best interest or not, but my instinct is telling me this isn’t a good idea. We should absolutely listen to that. Sometimes we’re going to decide it’s too big of a risk or it’s not safe enough or I don’t have enough information to know if it’s safe and I’m going to err on the side of caution.

Janet Lansbury: Right. Or, I don’t have the bandwidth to handle being this afraid right now for my child. I mean, that’s valid.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah. And to say, I’m too anxious. And we matter too. Every decision we make is not in a vacuum. If I make the decision to let my kid go, because I’m like, Oh, this is my fear, but I’m so afraid that I’m not sleeping all night and then I’m an angry, reactive parent for the next two days to all my other kids. We have to think about all these things. I think we absolutely can make decisions for ourselves, and you’re exactly right.

I think the key is to do it with intention. We’re making a decision as opposed to just letting our fears decide. And we can let our fears be the call, even, at times. But we have to be intentional. We have to really choose. And I think it’s so hard when so much of the time it feels like we’re just surviving because life is so full and we have such big mental loads. And I want to give all of us permission to not give an answer right away. And I often tell parents that in the discipline moments too, I want to give you permission to say to your child if they’re old enough, I want to think about how I want to handle this. Take a pause and to really go let yourself sit in it.

Janet Lansbury: That’s great modeling. But what about changing your mind? I mean, we kind of did that with our daughter going to parties in high school. The first one, we said no because we knew there was going to be alcohol there, we were afraid. But then as I thought about it, I realized, Okay, so this is high school, like we’re going to keep her home? I mean, what’s the option here? Is that really going to work? And we realized we had to educate her as much as we could and trust her. And it was tough.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: I love that you talked about changing your mind because you know, the sort of less-informed, kind of old ways of doing things was like, If you lay down the law, you can’t change your mind or they’re going to know you’re not in control. Well I have a problem with that whole sentence. Because if you’re going to use threat and power and control to control your child, you’re eventually going to lose.

There’s a huge difference between giving in and changing your mind. Lots of times my children have had great arguments and things that I hadn’t thought about. Well, did you know that the parents are going to be in the house and we’re just going to be in the backyard? Okay, well I didn’t know parents were going to be there, right? That’s more information, I can change my mind. And I’ve often said to my kids, You know what? I’m changing my mind. I’ve thought about it some more and I think this is something that you can handle.

I often would say to my boys too, I know you know what I’m about to ask you, so why don’t you do the mental legwork for me? Because they’d say, Can I go here? And I’d say, Well, who’s taking you and what time does it start? And so I stopped doing that and I started saying, I bet you can imagine all the information I’m going to need in order to make a decision. So why don’t you go do that thinking and then come back?

Or if I started to lecture about something they didn’t do the way that they were supposed to, instead of me lecturing, if I could say, I bet you know everything I’m about to say to you. So why don’t we reverse roles? Why don’t you tell me what you think I would say? And what was amazing about that is they almost always would say everything I was going to say anyway. And I felt a sense of peace inside because I was like, They’ve really been listening, they’ve really been internalizing. And as they say it, they’re internalizing it even more. And it gave me confidence that they really can handle a lot more than I think they can. You know? And they really do have wise minds. And they’re going to make mistakes and the mistakes can be valuable.

And so again, it’s back to that idea of trusting. Trusting ourselves to sit in discomfort as needed. Trusting our child to navigate the world even as it has its challenges. Trusting that other people will show up for our kids too. Trusting development. I guess in a way it’s kind of an optimism about development and about who our children are becoming. I often think about times where I was worried about something with one of my kids and when I think back about it now I’m like, that was a lot of misspent emotional energy. I really believe we can trust development. Regardless, even if we have kids who are neurodivergent. I really believe development is amazing. And if kids are given opportunities to learn and grow, try things and problem-solve, that their brain does so much amazing work and they become amazing people.

Janet Lansbury: I love that. I love that story about your son. That’s wonderful.

Well, thank you so much Tina, and once again, so much encouragement, so much wisdom. You’re very comforting to listen to. I want to agree that unruffled is flexible. It’s not rigid, it’s a model that’s very flexible. We can be free to be ourselves in this relationship, figuring it out with our child.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Yeah. White-knuckling something isn’t really being unruffled, no. I think an underlying current to everything we talked about is ongoing reflection as a parent. The way we become unruffled or move toward unruffledness is to tune into ourselves, to reflect, to make sense of the times we’re not practicing to be the parent we want to be. To say, What was that about for me? And how can I be the parent I want to be in the next moment? I think it’s such an important part of that flexibility and that freedom to really enjoy our relationships with our kids, trusting them, trusting ourselves, and continuing to reflect and grow.

Janet Lansbury: 100%. Thank you so much, Tina.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: Thanks for having me.

Janet Lansbury: Thanks for all that you do for parents.

Dr. Tina Payne Bryson: You too, Janet. Thank you so much.

Learn more about the resources Dr. Tina Payne Bryson offers at TinaPayneBryson.com and on her Instagram page: TinaPayneBryson 

Please check out some of my other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can get them an ebook at Amazon, Apple, Google Play, or barnesandnoble.com and in audio at audible.com. And you can even get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Our Fears as Parents – Real and Imagined (with Dr. Tina Payne Bryson) appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “What To Do About Embarrassing, Troubling, or Crazy-Making Things Our Kids Say”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I have, as I often do, three questions I received from parents, and I see a running theme here. Maybe nobody else will, but hopefully by the end of this podcast episode you’ll see it. And hopefully my responses to these notes are helpful to you. All three of these notes refer to a child expressing thoughts or opinions, a point of view that is uncomfortable for the parent to hear. In the first case, it’s because the child’s thoughts are embarrassing the parent in front of other people. In the second case, they bring up a concern about their child and the child’s perceptions about themselves. And in the third, the child is sticking to a point of view that seems silly to the parent and it’s really annoying that they won’t let go of it. I’m looking forward to getting into this.

Let’s start with the first note. This one says:

Hi Janet,

My three-and-a-half-year-old son is bright, articulate, and outgoing, and I love spending time with him. But one issue has been giving me anxiety about taking him out and about. He comments on people’s appearances, often right in front of them, sometimes accompanied by pointing. He asks, Why does her hair look like that? Why is his face red? Is that a man or a woman? And so on and so forth. If I don’t respond immediately, he repeats the question until I answer. I usually try to guide my son away and say something like, We’re all different. Look, you and I have different [fill-in-the-blank]. I also say that talking about how other people look can hurt their feelings, but if he has questions he can ask me or his dad at home.

He usually says okay and stops in the moment, but it’s continued happening. I understand this is developmentally normal and maybe I should get over my own embarrassment, but I’d be grateful for any advice. How do I teach him to save such questions for later? And what do I do in the moment when the people he’s talking about, both adults and kids, clearly heard him, and acknowledge that his words may have been hurtful? I want to model good behavior and show respect to the other person without shaming my son.

Thanks so much and I look forward to your thoughts.

Okay, so this is a not-fun situation. I’ve been in this situation. I really only remember it with my oldest, but I don’t know, it may have happened with the younger ones too. Obviously this is awkward, embarrassing. We don’t want other people to feel judged or hurt, of course, by us or by the things our child says. But the truth is, once our child says it—especially at this age, he’s three-and-a-half, he’s just a little guy. He doesn’t have a ton of impulse control yet. And he’s saying what’s on his mind.

And I think we have to remember two things. First of all, this parent is absolutely right and it’s great that she understands. She says, “this is developmentally normal and maybe I should get over my own embarrassment.” Yes, it’s developmentally normal and natural for an inquisitive child who’s curious and wants to learn everything about their world, right? But once they’ve said it, they’ve said it. This parent says, “If I don’t respond immediately, he repeats the question.” So when we’re not responding immediately, it might be that we’re kind of hoping he just stops and we don’t have to deal with it, or maybe we just don’t know what to say. And then our child is picking up on that discomfort from us. It’s natural, it’s normal to have that in that situation, right? It’s totally embarrassing. But it kind of throws our child a little off-balance and actually makes it more likely that they’re going to fall into making those kinds of statements again.

So, if we realize what’s done is done, he’s already said it, we can’t take it back and there’s really nothing I can do to erase that for the other person who’s heard it. Maybe we can exhale on that and know that where we do have power is to respond in a way that takes the onus off of this. And by doing so, make it less likely that he will repeat this.

I would also do, as this parent says, but I would do this a moment later and very comfortably, I would say, Hmm, you know what? Sometimes when people hear that it can hurt their feelings. So I would say it just as a, By the way, here’s some good info for you to know in your journey, my love. People can take this the wrong way. But if we’re not uncomfortable about it and we communicate that way, without judgment or alarm, then we prevent this from happening again or make it less likely.

And in the moment, let’s take the examples she gave. “Why does her hair look like that?” I would right away say something like, Hmm, I don’t know. Maybe that’s a style that she enjoys, I guess. Almost shrugging our shoulders as we say this, being that comfortable. “Why is his face red?” Hmm, I don’t know. Maybe he’s had a lot of sun? Not sure. “Is that a man or a woman?” I don’t really know. Could be either, maybe. Or, I believe that’s a man, but one never knows how somebody might identify their gender.

That very nonchalant response will help. It’s just like with everything with children: when we’re not making a big deal out of it, it’s not a magnet for them that they need to keep going there, they need to keep checking that out and exploring that with us.

So if this parent does normal things like not respond immediately, because she’s like, Oh gosh, let’s just pretend that didn’t happen. I don’t want to answer, that doesn’t work, because then he repeats the question as if to ask, What’s going on with you? Like, Why can’t you just answer a simple question, parent? Just give an answer. Doesn’t have to be a perfect answer. That’s going to be our best response.

When she says, “I usually try to guide my son away and say something like, We’re all different. Look, you and I have different” whatever, it probably comes off to him a little bit defensive and, Hey, don’t ask those kind of things, instead of just answering it like it’s no big deal.

And then she says, “I also say that talking about how other people look can hurt their feelings, but if he has questions he can ask me or his dad at home.” So yes, I would absolutely do that, but not from an activated place, not from an uncomfortable place if possible. If I do have those feelings, just waiting for a moment to add that part in. Maybe even saving it for later, like, Oh, by the way, just so you know, this can do that. But you’re saying it to somebody who’s on your team, who is doing normal things, and you just want to give them some information, give them some knowledge around socializing with other people.

She says, “How do I teach him to save such questions for later?” Just by doing that, giving him that little tip. Because children want to be socially correct, they don’t want to embarrass people.

But if they’re embarrassing us, then that is something that they get drawn to trying to understand. And when they’re drawn to doing that, that means they’re repeating it, usually. That’s true with all different kinds of behaviors. The way we react to things matters. We can react in a way that shows that we’re confident leaders or we can be thrown off balance. And we’re all going to have both of these, but the more that we can err on the side of taking it in stride, the easier it’s going to be for us.

So she says, “I want to model good behavior and show respect to the other person without shaming my son.” And I think that is exactly how you can do that: just by answering. They already heard him say it. So just give an answer that is neutral, genuine, that’s not judgmental on your part. That’s how to model our best behavior and show respect. And again, what all these notes have in common is this natural response that we have as parents to kind of push back on it, meaning the thought or the point of view our child expresses. Avoid it. Correct. Rather than just allowing it and welcoming it. Letting it be, letting it have a life, rather than correcting it, avoiding it, pushing back on it.

Okay, so here’s another one:

My three-year-old daughter is obsessed with being pretty or beautiful. I’m sure I have contributed to this. I catch myself telling both of my kids —three-year-old girl and five-year-old boy— how cute they are, not infrequently. They are adorable. But I think I balance this decently with observations about how hard they work, their creativity, thoughtfulness, etc. And while I like to look nice sometimes, I’m usually in sweatpants and I rarely wear makeup, so I don’t think it’s all coming from me. I think the limited television they watch and other media they consume have relatively healthy messaging.

Still, my daughter wakes up every day and says she wants to be pretty, which invariably means she wants to wear a pink sparkly dress or similar. If I tell her she is pretty, no matter what she wears, she flatly denies it. Lately I’ve been asking her, “What makes you feel pretty today?” Trying to bring it to the internal, but I don’t know that it’s registering.

I don’t really mind pink and sparkly if that’s how she wants to express herself. (Although there are lots of fun pants and t-shirts that aren’t getting much or any use!) But other things she said have me a little worried. Once she saw me putting on makeup and, when I wouldn’t let her wear mascara, she started crying because she thought people were going to say her eyes weren’t pretty. When we play with her mermaid toys in the bathtub, she wants one to be the beautiful girl and another to be yucky or not beautiful.

Is this normal? I kind of love that she knows what she likes and loves to dress up, but I also of course really don’t want her to grow up believing her value is in her looks. My family was very focused on looks and that didn’t do me any favors in the confidence department. I’m not sure how to walk this line and would love some advice on how to raise a confident little fashionista. Thanks very much.

Okay, so this type of question I receive often. Children exploring these whole realms of life, like being the “pretty,” princessy, glittery, ultra-feminine person. And I think they do see it in media and also it’s maybe just an exploration of a side of themselves. Boys can experience it too. So I would try to see this as an exploration. I don’t know that she’s going to be a fashionista, maybe just a phase that she’s passing through. And a positive goal we can have as parents is to encourage it to pass through. Just like we would, in a way, encourage that boy in the first example to share what he’s thinking and feeling, while also letting him know comfortably that his words can have an effect on others.

With the dressing up, the more that our child feels us pushing back on this, the more likely they are to get stuck in these phases. Again, to explore the power that they have with us when they’re experimenting or exploring certain behaviors. And we don’t need to know how this girl got these ideas that something’s yucky and something’s beautiful and that that’s an important thing to be and that maybe her eyes wouldn’t be beautiful without the mascara. I mean, maybe she asked her parent once, Why do you wear mascara? And the mom said, Oh because it makes my eyes look prettier. That would be a typical thing to say, right? But again, it doesn’t really matter where they heard it. The point is she’s doing what she’s supposed to do, which is exploring, processing all the things that she’s taken in or heard once or become interested in. She’s learning about it.

And when children learn about it, they go all in a lot of the time, which I kind of love about them. So when this girl wakes up every day and says she wants to be pretty, we don’t need to push back on that.

This parent says, “If I tell her she’s pretty no matter what she wears, she flatly denies it.” Right, so we’re gently, lovingly wanting to counter our child. Oh, but hey, you’re always pretty. And they want to be whatever they think “pretty” means to them, which maybe is a sparkly dress or mascara or the mermaid in the bathtub and not the other one. It’s a concept that she has that’s not necessarily what other people’s definition of pretty would be. It’s her definition, because she’s the one learning about it, exploring it.

So this approach, it’s so much easier than feeling responsible for molding and shaping and pushing back on and correcting the things our child does and says. That takes a lot of energy and it doesn’t help. It can be a really frustrating experience as parents when we’re working to do what we believe is our job, and it’s actually making our job harder.

And this is where trust comes into play. Trust is relieving ourselves of that burden of trying to fix what’s in our child’s mind, what’s on their learning agenda for right now. That’s not our job and it will likely exhaust us if we try to make it our job.

So this parent is doing a lot of work. She’s been asking her, “What makes you feel pretty today?” Trying to bring it to the internal. She says, “But I don’t know that it’s registering.” Yeah, we don’t have to teach lessons. The lessons get taught through our child’s experience and the trust that we have in them that they will pass through it. The real lesson we want to teach her is, We welcome you to explore and learn and try out everything that interests you in life. Within reason, of course. If it’s not safe or if it’s really harmful to someone, we’re not going to let them do that.

But this stuff, yeah, there’s a reason they’re working through this. They want to understand it better and then they come out the other side of it. So let’s let that process flow as much as possible instead of trying to put the brakes on it, making our job so much harder.

I can understand why this parent got worried about the makeup. “She started crying because she thought people were going to say her eyes weren’t pretty.” Well, that could be a real opening to connect with our child. Instead of saying, Oh, your eyes are so pretty you don’t need this, or whatever might be the normal thing to say, right? We might say, Wow, you think you need black around your eyelashes to feel prettier? What is pretty about that? What does pretty mean to you? It gives them the message, I’m just interested in where your head’s at and what you think about things. I want to know your point of view, actually. I want to know what pretty is to you and why that’s important.

So much of what we feel like we should do as parents —I get this, because I feel the same way, I have those same impulses— but so much of it is actually shutting our children down from sharing with us. Sharing their interests with us, these nuances, these details, and how they see things. We can enjoy parenting more when we’re curious, accepting of wherever they are and then curious about it, wanting to know more.

I understand this parent’s vulnerability and that’s coming into play here, too. And maybe something her daughter’s picking up on in some way. That she said, “My family was very focused on looks and that didn’t do me any favors in the confidence department.” So now I’m coming in with this natural projection that I’m going to put on the situation and my child is wondering why this is such a big deal. That’s what I would look at.

Once again, I want to know what you have to say. I want to know what you’re thinking. Yes, I’m going to give you pointers when it’s hurting somebody, when it’s maybe making someone uncomfortable or maybe it comes off as rude. I’m going to help you with that, but really I want to know what’s going on in your mind.

Okay, here’s one more:

Hi Janet,

Thank you for normalizing toddler behavior and giving parents a safe space to learn about this fascinating stage of life.

(Me here— I agree with that! It’s a fascinating stage of life!)

I have read through and listened to the pieces you have already on the site about arguing, but I wanted to ask you a specific question about arguing.

My three-and-a-half-year-old gets into something I’ll call circular arguing, because I don’t know what else to call it, which is when he cannot let go of a topic and won’t accept any answer other than the one he demands is true. An example:

My son: Look at that shiny black car with letters on it.

Me: Cool! That says “police.”

Son: No, that does not say police! Police cars are blue, not black, mama.

Me: Actually, police cars can be black or white or all sorts of different colors.

Son: No, not true! All police cars are blue.

And on and on and on. He’ll repeat himself until he gets distracted or until I manage to change the subject. I just don’t know what to say back to him in these moments because, “Okay, you’re right,” does not feel like the right thing. But also engaging or arguing back with him is not a power struggle I want to get into with him. Sometimes I’ll say, “You feel very strongly about this,” but what I’m really looking for is strategies for helping him let things go and move on.

Any thoughts you have about this would be so welcome. Thank you so much.

I love her title of circular arguing. That really describes this. I feel like this parent is very wise in that she knows that saying, “Okay, you’re right,” isn’t the right thing, but also doesn’t want to argue back with him. And she says, “Sometimes I’ll say, ‘You feel very strongly about this.'” So that’s more on the right track.

A few things. First, like these other examples, it’s very common and we could see this so positively, how assertive he’s being. He’s being sure of himself, he’s seeing patterns. All police cars are this, all are that. Children can be very all or nothing at this toddler stage. And, they want to be separate from us. They want to be more autonomous. And often that means saying the opposite of what we say, even if they actually know that’s not true. They want to hold onto, But this is what I think and I’m separate from you. So it’s a dynamic that’s actually very healthy and not as specific as it may come off, that he’s specifically confused about this.

What she can do, and what I would recommend, is to not argue, not agree with his side when you know it’s not true. Just rise above and welcome him to share. Wow, you have a strong opinion. This is what you think. Thanks for sharing with me. I always want to know how you see things. Very comfortable. And that’s how he will let go, because he’s got nowhere to go with us when we welcome him to share his view. We welcome it so much we actually say, I always want to know what you think. It’s really interesting to me. And we don’t have to change our view to his and we don’t have to change his view to match ours. We welcome his individuality. And you could even say, It seems like every police car you’ve seen must have been blue. Yeah, interesting.

Sometimes the answer in these issues is so much simpler than we make it. But I know it’s so easy to get hooked in. Wait, he’s saying something wrong, and This is crazy, and Ah, it’s so annoying, I’ve got to fix this. Or, Why is this child saying this in front of people? Or, Why does my daughter have this kind of icky obsession with appearances? We get hooked in. And I think it comes from actually respecting our children so much and thinking they’re so cool that we forget how small and just how they’re in constant motion in their development, and constant exploration.

And it’s really harmless. It’s all to the good. They’re figuring it out and they’re sharing their process with us. And that’s a gift.

Nothing they say can intimidate us unless we let it. And as this parent says, when we normalize toddler behavior, we can dig into this a little as a fascinating stage of life. Yes, it’s also an aggravating stage of life for sure. But I mean, we’re learning more and more about them every minute. They’re able to express more to us. They’re opening up to us. So if we can reframe this as harmless, interesting, exploratory, really positive developmental behavior, we can take a big breath, even have maybe a sense of humor about it and not let it get to us. That’s what I’m hoping for all of you. And again, I really hope some of this helps.

Both of my books are available in paperback at Amazon. That’s No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting . You can get them in ebook at Amazon or Apple, Google Play, or barnes and noble.com and in audio@audible.com. And you can get a free audio copy of either book at Audible by following the link in the liner notes of this podcast. Or you can go to the books section of my website. 

Thank you for listening. We can do this.

The post What To Do About Embarrassing, Troubling, or Crazy-Making Things Our Kids Say appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Janet shares 3 notes from parents whose kids have experienced unpleasant interactions with other children. The parents’ instinct was to step in, but they were uncertain how to do that without offending the other parents. Janet explains her perspective and specific advice for handling each of these encounters.

Janet’s “No Bad Kids Master Course” is available at NoBadKidsCourse.com and JanetLansbury.com.

Her best-selling books No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline without Shame and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting are available in all formats at Amazon, Apple, Barnes & Noble, Google Play, and free at Audible (https://adbl.co/2OBVztZ) with a trial subscription.

Transcript of “Problems with Other People’s Children”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be addressing three notes that I received. I always seem to get things in threes. These are all on the topic of other people’s kids.

We’re working really hard, a lot of us, on how to engage with our own children, how to help them with their behavior, how to teach them right from wrong. But what happens if we’re dealing with other children who are maybe not being safe with our child, not respecting their boundaries? And then we also have the other children’s parents. What are they doing? How are they handling it? How do we navigate this? So, it’s a big topic, but I’m going to use these three notes from very mindful parents to offer general guidelines and also some specifics to help us in these social situations.

Okay, so first I want to talk about what can get in our way of responding in a manner that’s the most helpful and productive in terms of what our children are learning, even what other children are learning. Oftentimes, I’ll hear from parents that are making this really challenging transition to a respectful, thoughtful approach from being raised in a very different way. So they could be breaking generational cycles, learning something that maybe doesn’t come as naturally to them, that they’re not as confident about, but that they really, really want. And sometimes we can be in that position and we either overreact or under-react. Overreacting—and parents have expressed to me that they feel they have a right to do this, and they certainly do. To come into these situations fiercely protective of their child, so angry at that other child, raising their voice, scolding them.

And while that happens—and it certainly does make sense and there’s nothing wrong with us for feeling that way—we’re not helping either child in that situation. Instead, we’re adding more fear into a situation where our child is already a little afraid or trying to process something that just happened. And we’re coming in in this scary way, Yikes, this was really, really scary, what happened here. So scary that my parent is having a strong emotional reaction. I can’t handle this. It is scary to be out with other children or to be engaging with this particular friend. I’m not safe. And then that other child, if that other child is the one who’s hurt our child, we’re not helping them either. Their behavior’s coming from discomfort already and now we’re adding a lot more. So we’re not helping that child in the moment or the next time. Because this impulse will come up for them again, especially because of the way that we reacted. So, that’s the one extreme direction that we can go.

The other one I often hear about from parents who, they don’t want to be that overreacting person, but they’re not sure how to go into the situation with confidence. And so they don’t intervene and they kind of let it go. Then their child is getting hurt, getting hit, showing that they’re not able to defend their boundaries themselves. And the parent is feeling too tentative to be able to intervene in a protective but calm manner. All of that is understandable as well.

The goal that we want is to find that just-right intervention that offers the most positive, empowering messages to both children. That feels safe to them, so they’re in an emotional space where they can be receptive, where they can learn positive things, like that I have a right to boundaries and how to express my boundaries. And for that other child, that people are actually out there looking out for me when I need help with boundaries, when I need help stopping these impulses that I have. And they’re not mad at me about it, they’re not judging me. Which is the only way we really can help. As soon as we’re judging a child, they can’t receive that as help. They receive it as just more evidence that they’re bad, that they’re not okay, and that they’re kind of alone in this.

So, how do we get ourselves to that just-right frame of mind? We get it with clarifying our perspective. And in this case, the perspective that I recommend working on is letting go of what we don’t control, completely, which is going to be those other adults’ reactions. We have no power to control that, and there’s actually a lot of good reasons not to. We’re raising our children not to be in a bubble, but to adapt to the world around them. Which children will naturally do, they’ll naturally want to do. And we can be there as supporters and guides in this journey, but they are going to get exposed to, and they’re supposed to get exposed to, all different kinds of reactions to their behavior and to other children’s behavior. Maybe that even comes from relatives. Maybe one of two parents reacts differently, and maybe not ideally.

But children really only need one person who is in their corner. Still seeing them clearly, but not judging them, understanding that they’re going to show every different kind of behavior. They don’t need the whole world and everybody else in it to act the same way. Even if people are using terms for them or for their child who’s acting out with them, maybe they’re using terms like naughty or bad or yelling at their child or yelling at your child. Obviously that’s not ideal, but that’s life.

And we’re there, one step behind them, in terms of the way that they’re processing what they’re learning, so we can reflect with them later, taking our cues from our child. Did something happen there that was mystifying to my child? I see that expression on their face. Then I could ask them, maybe afterwards, Did that seem different to you, what that parent was doing? Or, You noticed that that child was behaving this certain way, and what do you think that was about? How did that feel to you?

Okay, so now instead of me going on and on in this general way, I think it will work better for me to use these questions to explain what I’m talking about:

Hi, Janet. I know this question may not be what you normally talk about, but it’s been something that is coming up a lot lately for me. How do I deal with other children misbehaving? Sometimes parents don’t step in when I would expect they would, and it leaves me feeling uncomfortable and unsure how to handle it.

A while back ago, we had friends and their kids over. Their kids were very physically aggressive, and my kids had been hit and pushed several times. The mom would lightly address it, but it kept happening. Then he started being destructive and hitting furniture and other things with a toy. They just laughed it off. But I ended up asking him not to, and things got awkward and uncomfortable. Is there a way to politely handle a situation when the parents don’t? By the time I end up saying something, I know my emotions are feeling tight, and even though I try to keep it out of my voice, people can sense it.

Okay, so when we get to that point where our emotions are feeling tight, that can happen with our own children too, right? And the reason that happens is because we’re letting something go. We’re not stepping in right away, as early as we can, to put a stop to things. We’re expecting other people to work it out. In this case, other parents or, in the case of us with our child, we’re expecting them to just follow our directions. You know, when we say stop, we expect that they should stop. But oftentimes they can’t.

So in these cases with other children, when you see the energy of this other child or other children, then unfortunately the children need us to not be sitting back just talking to the parents and hanging out and pretending everything’s fine. And then of course, knowing that it isn’t, we get worked up, and then we come in with the less helpful kind of energy. And we feel really frustrated because we’ve let things go and why aren’t these parents doing what I want them to do? Other parents usually won’t feel judged or that there’s something wrong with you, if you come in non-judgmentally, early to the situation. You see this going on, like, Ah, yeah, you guys want to, oh, nope, that could hurt him. I know you don’t want to do that, so I’m going to stop you. And while I’m saying this, I’m just calmly kind of buddy-guarding, hanging near the children, so I can stop them. Maybe I don’t always get there before something happens, but I’m there pretty soon after. And I have my hands up to stop them, even if I have to kind of hold their bodies a little bit. I’m doing it with respect. I’m doing it with calmness.

The key to coming in with confidence is being there, being close enough and ready so that we can help and not get caught on our heels. So when we see, as this parent does, that sometimes parents don’t step in when I would expect they would, that’s okay if they don’t step in, I’m going to step in. But I’m not going to step in in a way that should anger those other parents or embarrass them. No one wants their children to be hurting another child. That would be odd. I doubt you would be friends with people who really didn’t care. Maybe they just are afraid to step in, or they don’t know how to do it in a calm way. Or maybe they believe they’re respecting when they’re actually not really seeing their children clearly, not helping them.

So when other people aren’t helping, be the hero. Be the one who helps, way before you get to the point of being angry and annoyed. Yeah, it’s reasonable to have the expectation that other parents would care and stop their child. But there are a lot of reasons why parents haven’t gotten to that yet, and we have no control over that. But we do have control over our behavior in the moment and what goes on in our house and what goes on with our child. And that’s where I would be protective. So not storming in angrily, but, You know, this is a little rough today. So I’m here. Ooh, no, no, no. Yeah, I can’t let you use those toys that way. That’s not safe when you throw them like that. I’m there. I’m not just talking. I’m in there, acting as if I can handle all of this.

And it’s amazing how that translates to children. If we really believe we’re being heroic here, we’re being the great model. Even for the other parents, because we’re sincerely helping that child who is struggling with boundaries. And maybe this is why they’re doing this in front of you. It’s almost an unconscious, Hey, people aren’t helping me with this. Maybe you can? Obviously that’s not a conscious process of thought, but that’s part of the impulse. Like, Help! Somebody help me! Look what I’m doing now. I’m out of control. I don’t want to be this person that’s doing this. So stepping into that role will feel –when you get used to it and you can own it– feel really, really good. And if people are put off by that, honestly, there’s something wrong with them. Because you’re being kind to their child. You’re not mad at or finger-pointing, you’re helping.

I had a live event a few years ago collaborating with this wonderful educator, one of my favorites, for this very enthusiastic and engaged group of parents. And one of them asked what to do about their four-year-old who had this friend of his, this little boy would come over and the little boy would want to wrestle and want to do things physically that their boy was saying no to. But he was going along with it because the other child wasn’t listening to him and kept going.

And so the person I was collaborating with on the stage, they had a different opinion, which is fine too. I’m sure a lot of you out there have very different opinions from mine. In this case, the person I was on stage with said, Let them work it out. That’ll be really good for your child. You know, boys play like that sometimes.

While I totally could see that point of view, I have a very different perspective, which is that this child is showing they’re struggling with boundaries. Both children are actually showing that, but especially this child who is not listening to my son. He needs help. And I believe he’s asking for it here in this house, and I want to be the one that gives it to him. So I would go in and say, with my hand there, I’m going to stop you. It sounds like you’re saying you don’t want that. You’re telling him. Yeah. So he’s saying he doesn’t want that, so I’m going to stop you there. I wouldn’t redirect them to something else. I would allow them to have that moment. And then on their own—and I’ve seen this happen hundreds of times with children—on their own, they come up with another way to play. I don’t have to do that for them. All I have to do is help them with the boundary. It is really hard with your peers. You want to go along with them, right? You feel like, Oh, maybe there’s something wrong with me. I should be okay with this. Sometimes children do need a helping hand, and when we’re there to offer it, I would see that as a primetime parenting opportunity.

Okay, here’s another note I received:

It might be interesting to do a post or include in a future podcast what to do when your child is the one who is hit, shoved by another kid. I have been in a few situations now with other kids and their parents present where a toddler shoves or hits my toddler, two and a half. It is very hard to navigate because most parents instantly demand their child stand in front of mine and apologize. That’s their first response.

My kid is usually just sort of stunned and I get in there with him to softly say, “It’s not okay for someone to hit you or hurt you. How do you feel?” I’m not sure what I’m supposed to say to him, but this feels important. I also try to make it broad and not about that particular child because I don’t want to harm their relationship and I’m sure they can get through this. But it’s very uncomfortable saying that in front of the other parents, who always seem embarrassed. Then they immediately jump to the forced apology. I can’t control them and I don’t want to undermine or question them in front of their kids. But I also don’t appreciate the example being made in front of my kid, their friend forced to stand there in front of them and say something that only makes them feel worse.

Once with a mom friend, I awkwardly blurted out, “If my kid had pushed your kid, I would not expect him to say sorry. We would just talk about what happened. So, no pressure.” They just stared at me stunned. Maybe an entire podcast on navigating parenting differences on the playground?

Okay, so yeah, I totally agree with what this parent says about “I can’t control them and I don’t want to undermine or question them in front of their kids” when they’re forcing the apologies. So yeah, that’s that letting go. People certainly have a right to do things their own way, the way they think is best.

Where I see things a little differently than this parent writing to me is that I don’t believe this will hurt her child at all. Yeah, it’s not an example of what this parent would do, but it’s a fine example out there of what people are doing. And I mean, the whole purpose of our guidance for them is for them to be exposed gradually to the rest of the world. And this is a common way that parents react, into that apology. Because they feel that that’s the right thing to do. All of this is very well-intentioned, right?

But what we know about children is that they process things more slowly than we do. And even we, as adults, when we do something that hurts someone’s feelings or we do something wrong, we’re not always able to snap into an apology. Especially if we feel people jumping on us around what we did. We don’t have that kind of emotional comfort space that we need to be vulnerable, which is what an apology, a true apology, comes from. That vulnerability, that openness, looking at it and saying, Ooh, I’m sorry I did that. That’s not going to just come trippingly off the tongue immediately.

Yet we expect this from children, because a lot of us feel like what people see in our children is going to reflect on us. And so we want them to be better than we are, right? A lot of the time, maybe. But that impulse is actually not going to get us the result that we want. It’s going to make our children feel more distanced from us, less inclined to want to genuinely go to that vulnerable place where apologies come from. It’s going to make them feel like they aren’t trusted, that they can’t really navigate this. That they have our judgment more than they have the support that they need. So I agree with this parent, that’s not an ideal situation for those children to have to do that.

And yeah, we can’t always be there ahead of time to stop the hitting or shoving. That’s not going to be possible. Once we see a child going to that place once, then we can be close by because now we’ve gotten a clue that this child is not managing the situation easily. And we can be there for them, to help. So she says, “My kid is usually just sort of stunned.” Yes. And it’s not even stunned in a scary way. They’re not usually traumatized by it in any way. It’s just Ooh, what just happened? What was that about?

So in that moment of processing, what do they need from us there? They need us to be ready to block so it doesn’t happen again. So, physically there. Ideally calmly there, with confidence that this isn’t going to terrify our child. If we’re terrified or if we’re emotional, then that’s when it gets scarier for them. But on its own, it’s just a puzzling moment, right? And yeah, we want to make sure they’re okay. Usually we can look at them and see, but we might say like, Ooh, did that hurt? Yeah. Are you all right? But try to be careful not to turn this into that I see my child is this sad victim here or something, which can be a projection that we have that’s similar to that projection of being angry at the other child. It’s that mother bear or father bear in us, fiercely protective. But the best way to protect isn’t to let that bear out of us. It’s more protective in a helpful way to be calm, to wait, to really check out our child. Rather than trying to console them or fix something that may not even need fixing. So staying open to, What did they think? And you know, just checking both children out.

And then with the parents doing the apology thing, I would still stay there with my child. Breathing, exhaling. I don’t think it feels worse to our child to have a child do a very likely false type of apology. They’re probably just still in that processing Ooh, what’s going on here? mode. It’s safe for them to be there. And if our child brings it up later, or if we notice them thinking about it, then after the fact, when those children have moved away, that’s when I would say, Wow, their parent really wanted them to say sorry. They really wanted them to say those words to you. Just reflecting what happened, not deciding that this was the right or wrong thing to do. Knowing that the way we are with our child is what has influence on how they feel about themselves, how they feel about the way they’re navigating in the world. It’s always going to take precedence over what other people do. I would love to encourage parents to feel secure in that knowledge, that they do have a lot of power here. And the more we can trust children to navigate with our support, but not trying to direct their thinking, the better.

Okay, so here’s one more:

Hi, Janet. Thanks for all the work you do to help us be better parents.

Our girls are four and six years old and love to get out in town and do fun things. Two weekends in a row, we came across nearly the same challenging situation. Both times we were at a play maze, the kind of maze that is several stories tall and the kids climb through. There are different obstacles and there are slides within it, as well as slides exiting it. They are so happy that they can finally independently go through it and explore and have fun. Usually parents are at the base of the maze unless their kid gets stuck up in the maze and the parent has to go up to rescue them.

Both times we went through –totally different mazes and weekends– my girls encountered a child in the maze who was behaving aggressively towards them. The children (I’m grouping them together now for simplicity), who both times were actually younger than them, pushed them down the slide, reportedly had their hands on their neck, were grabbing onto them without letting go, ramming into them with a cushion block, etc. My girls came down in tears once and came down immediately the next time and reported back to me. But it was already after the fact.

What do we teach them to do when they’re alone, like up in the maze, and a kid is acting aggressively towards them? They came and reported it to us, and we told them to stay with us, but we weren’t sure how they should handle it in the moment. Of course, both times the parents of the children were oblivious to what their child was doing.

Thanks in advance.

Okay, so this sentence stuck out to me: “They’re so happy that they can finally independently go through it and explore and have fun.” So each of these steps to independence, each of these ways that we as parents let go a little to let our child experience more of the world on their own terms. Which, again, this process of development is what our job is all about. My mentor Magda Gerber used to say, “Parenting, it’s this process of letting go. We let go. We let go a little more and a little more, as our child gets to stretch their wings.” So this is a positive experience for these children to have, right?

And unfortunately, they came across some pretty concerning behavior from another child. There’s no way of knowing all the reasons that children would behave like that. But oftentimes it’s about the dynamic and the relationship they have with their parents that they’re taking out on other children. Or they just feel out of control.

So what do we do? How do we help our children when they’re facing those situations? Well, these girls did the absolutely perfect thing. They told their parents right away. And, I mean, this is one of the reasons we never want to judge a child for “tattling,” which is really just reporting. But that can be a trigger for us sometimes, that a child is a tattletale. Maybe we were teased for being a tattletale or that we see that in a negative light. Rather than a communication, I trust my parent. I want to let you know what’s going on with me, that we’ve got to hope is going to last us through our child’s adolescence and teen years and early adulthood and for life, right? That they feel safe to tell us all the things, that we’re not going to say, Oh, don’t be a tattle. Don’t say that stuff.

So anyway, obviously this parent hasn’t done that and the children did the perfect thing, and is there anything else they could do? Well, the second time it happened, she says they came down immediately. Brilliant, right? So they are taking care of themselves. Yes, unfortunately they’re learning these hard lessons that every child isn’t kind, children aren’t always safe to be around, other people aren’t always safe to be around. And when we don’t feel safe, we exit the situation and we report to our parents, to help someone help that child so that it doesn’t keep happening.

This mom says, “Of course, both times the parents of the children were oblivious to what their child was doing.” Well, I hope they were told, and hopefully not judgmentally, just, Oh gosh, this is what your child is doing in there. I’m sure you want to know they’re not being safe inside the maze and they’re upsetting other kids. So if we can do that in a way that isn’t shaming of the parent. Studies actually show that, when you see parents that are being harsh with their kids, maybe physically punishing them, the parent’s dysregulated, shaming their child. We see parents doing these scary things and we want to run in there and save that child, right? What that actually does is it makes the parent feel worse. And then that means the parent is more likely to take out those feelings with that child later, because now we’ve shamed them. So, shaming doesn’t help a child, it doesn’t help a parent, it doesn’t help anybody. And as much as that might be a healthy impulse when we’re angry, that’s not what we want to aim for, if we really want to be a positive force and a positive model for our children.

So the ideal response to those parents that are obviously overwhelmed and not at their best with their child, the ideal is to go up at most and say, Can I give you a hand here? Can I help you with these groceries? Do you want me to help take your child’s hand so we can get you to the car? Help. And in the case of the parents whose children were acting out in the maze, yeah, if we could communicate this is going on, even with empathy, to that parent, that has the best chance of being received in a way that they can help their child and therefore other children like yours as well.

So I know all of this maybe sounds really idealistic and goody-two-shoes and, Oh gosh, you know, what is she expecting? We’re not going to have feelings about these things? And I understand that, and that’s not what I’m expecting. But I’m offering a framework that will not only help you navigate these situations individually, but give your child all those lessons that I know you want them to have. That they’re safe, that independence is this balance of joy and also sometimes scary. It’s a risk that we’re taking, even to interact with another child. But it’s one that they can handle, with our support.

So I thank all these parents for sharing with me. Just know that, yeah, step-by-step, building confidence each time, one step forward, two steps back, forgiving yourselves for being human.

We can do this.

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The parent of three young boys is struggling to deal with their demands and the conflicts between them. If she accommodates one boy’s wishes, the other two react with an opposing desire, jealousy, and fighting. She’s wondering how to cope with her situation when everything feels like a compromise. “Most of the time I feel like they’re either fighting with each other or fighting over me,” she says. “It’s exhausting.”

Transcript of “More Kids, More Conflict — How Can We Keep the Peace?”

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Yes. So what this parent said at the end, “does he just need to mature out of it?” That’s absolutely a big part of this because children do mature in their ability to handle disappointments and all other feelings and to regulate them better.

As I’m reading this note, I’m thinking how kind of prickly and sensitive this little boy feels as if he’s very, very sensitive to criticism right now or any kind of feeling that doesn’t seem trusting and agreeable to him. And like this parent. I wonder where this is coming from that it seems to be happening much more often these days. So like always, I have a lot of questions for this family. But a couple of things this parent says give me some clues. She says, “reasoning with him” and “trying to reassure,” and “it takes a lot of support when he gets upset and loses composure with his friends.” So I wonder what that support is looking like.

Because what I want to offer this parent is this idea that is so counterintuitive for most of us: that we allow children to feel the depth of their feelings of disappointment, loss of control, even of being criticized, that we really lean in to seeing and acknowledging and welcoming those feelings, helping our child feel heard and and safe to feel all the ways he feels instead of trying to correct or talk him out of them.

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