Transcript of “Dr. Gabor Maté on Why Parents Matter More Than Ever”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

For most of you out there, I’m guessing that my guest today needs no introduction. Dr. Gabor Maté is a family physician, renowned speaker, with a special interest in childhood development, trauma, and addiction. He’s authored five books, including the classic he co-authored with early childhood icon psychologist Dr. Gordon Neufeld. The book is Hold On to Your Kids: Why Parents Need to Matter More Than Peers. And Doctors Neufeld and Maté are reissuing it with a brand new chapter called In the Wake of the Pandemic: Peer Orientation and the Youth Mental Health Crisis. I’m seriously looking forward to discussing the invaluable messages in this book, and more, with Dr. Gabor Maté.

Hi, and welcome to you, Dr. Maté. I’m an enormous fan of yours and it’s really an honor to be able to spend this time with you. Thank you very much for being here.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thanks for having me. I’m sorry that due to technical issues, the main author of the book Hold On to Your Kids, Dr. Gordon Neufeld, can’t be with us. But since I wrote the book with him and have worked with him for decades, I think I can channel his wisdom here, as best I can. But listeners should keep in mind that it’s his work mostly that we’re talking about here.

Janet Lansbury: I believe in you as a channel for his work, and you have amazing work you’ve done on your own as well. And this book, well now you’re reissuing it because you’ve added a new chapter all about the effects of the pandemic. Which I found surprising, your take on it, because it’s very different from the take that we’re hearing from many about it. So I really hope that you’ll speak to that today. But this whole book, it’s really a unique perspective, and remains a unique perspective, even though it was first written back in, what was it, 2008, something like that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: I think even before then. I think it’s probably 2005 or 2004, something like that.

Janet Lansbury: You’ve also added some chapters about the digital explosion that’s happened and how that affects this issue. I’m going to let you speak about the issues that this book covers and brings to light for people. It was something that I hadn’t considered before reading this. I’ve known the importance of having a relationship-centered approach to parenting, that that’s what it’s all about. That attachment is everything, that it’s key to the way that children learn, the way that they live and become who we want them to be or who they’re supposed to be. And that attachment nest needs to be present. But what your book with Dr. Neufeld talks about is that, actually, this is even more important than we thought because there’s competition. There’s this powerful draw of peer orientation. Can you talk a little about that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, we have to consider human evolution. And from the evolutionary perspective, mammals, hominids and hominins, humanoid creatures lived in small-band groups, where the children were around the adults all the time, 24/7, from birth to adulthood. And even with our own species, we’ve been on the earth for about 150,000 years, that’s the way we lived until the blink of an eye ago. So for 95% of our existence as human species, children lived around their parents all the time.

It’s like a duckling. A duckling is born, hatches from the egg, looks at the mother duck and imprints on the mother duck, and then follows the mother duck. Not because the mother duck asserts authority or threatens them or anything, just that nature causes us to be attached to our caregivers and to follow their guidance. And that’s the way it’s been for a long time.

Now, in more recent times, kids spend most of their time away from their parents from a very early age on. In the United States, 25% of women have to go back to work within two weeks of giving birth, which basically means that children are deprived of the natural presence of their nature-intended caregivers.

The duckling, if it hatches with the mother duck absent, will still imprint on anything that moves. And that could be a dog or horse or mechanical moving toy, but none of which are designed by nature to bring that duckling up to adulthood.

Our children, spending most of their time away from us, imprint on who they spend most of their time with. Their brain is programmed to imprint and to attach, but nothing in nature tells the brain who to attach to. That’s the job of the culture. So when you have a culture in which kids spend most of their time away from the nurturing adults, they imprint on whoever’s around, they can’t help it. They’re not doing it, their brains are doing it.

That means our kids are now imprinting and attaching to, and therefore getting their orientation from, immature peers. Attachment is like a magnet. It’s got two poles. One pole attracts, but the other pole repels. So when you’re attracted here, you’re pushing away from there. So when kids get attracted to and orienting by and attached to their peer group, they start pushing away from the adult. And now we think they have a problem, there’s something wrong with them, and we ratchet up the authoritarian parenting, all the punishments, the timeouts, all this stuff, which further drives them away from us.

And so what we’ve got here in our society, to make a long story short, is a culturally built-in, normalized, absolutely abnormal situation, where kids are getting most of their influence from their immature peers rather than the nurturing adults. And this results in behavior problems, learning difficulties, a lot of what we call pathologies (which are not pathologies at all, they’re manifestations of abnormalities in the environment), difficulties parenting, frustration on the part of parents, all kinds of other consequences which you can talk about. But in a nutshell, it has to do with the loss of primary attachments to the nourishing adults and the replacement—gradually, but insidiously—by the peer group.

Janet Lansbury: When does this begin? When children are three years old, four years old?

Dr. Gabor Maté: For those kids whose mothers have to go back to work at two weeks, that’s when it starts. Because then where do they go to? They go to poorly-funded, very often, and poorly-staffed daycare centers where there’s not enough adults to really connect with each child. Furthermore, we have this idea in this society that somehow we have to socialize kids. They spent the whole week in daycare and then, at let’s say age three or four, we arrange playdates for them on the weekend where they can be with each other even more.

And so I’m just telling you that so many of the problems that parents are having with their kids, there’s nothing because something’s wrong with the kids or particularly something wrong with the parents either. But because in this culture, the loss of parental attachment has been normalized and even encouraged. And there’s this invisible competition that we’re actually taught to court and to encourage.

Janet Lansbury: So what does healthy socialization look like? I mean, when you say that we’re supposed to socialize, I never consider it that way. I consider that children are naturally socialized. It’s not something that we have to try to make happen for them.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s the whole point. Your assumption is quite right. Socialization does happen naturally. But we can over-encourage it, because we forget or we don’t know that child development goes through phases. It’s like a pyramid. And the base and the broadest grounding for that pyramid is attachment to the nurturing adults. And that has to be maintained. These are not phases that we go through, this is a pyramid that we build. And attachment is the basis of it.

The second basis of it is not socialization. The second tier in the pyramid is actually individuation, which means the child develops a deep, entrusting sense of themselves. Now for that, attachment has to be secure. When children develop a sense of themselves, they can then respect the individuality of others and hold on to themselves without having to fit in, without having to mold themselves to the expectations of the group. But if they don’t have a strong sense of themselves, individuation, then they’ll try and fit in with the group rather than being themselves. Then we can see where that leads to. You know what the extreme of that is: gang behavior.

Then the third tier, as Gordon points out, is socialization. So socialization is like the peak of the pyramid. In a healthy sense, it’s based on strong attachments, proper individuation, and then socialization happens spontaneously. We don’t have to make it happen. But we do have to respect the pyramid. And so when we try and push kids into socialization too early, before they’ve individuated, then we’re actually asking for them to just meld in with the peer group.

Janet Lansbury: When parents have asked me, How do I do this? I need to socialize my child. And I point out—because my mentor, who happens to be Hungarian, Magda Gerber, I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of her, but she used to say, you’re socializing your child with everything you do in your relationship. That’s how they’re learning social behaviors, through you. You don’t have to put them in a group setting. Group socialization is a whole different thing. They’re learning this through your relationship.

Dr. Gabor Maté: As a matter of fact, this is counterintuitive perhaps, and we’re not here advocating homeschooling, that’s not something everybody just can do, for all kinds of reasons. But if you look at the research, kids who are homeschooled, they socialize better later on. Why? Because they have a stronger, more independent sense of themselves. And now they can respect individuality of others and hold on to their own.

Janet Lansbury: If parents are in the position where they do need to have their child be in childcare, then ideally we want them to be able to attach—hopefully not as their primary attachment, hopefully that still remains the parent, right? That’s what we want. But they need to form a secondary attachment with those adults caring for them, so that they have somebody that’s an adult to be attached to instead of prioritizing the other children to be attached to.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah, we’re not saying kids shouldn’t be in daycare. That would not be realistic. A lot of parents, for economic and other reasons, simply have to send their kids to daycare. The question is to recognize what we’ve lost and how to supplant it, okay? So if the kid goes to daycare, the first point is: what the child’s brain cannot handle is competing primary attachments. The child can handle many attachments, but not competing primary attachments. By the way, that’s true of the human brain in general. It’s very difficult even for adults, for example, to be in love with two people at the same time. Eventually the brain goes this way or that way, but it can’t hold on to both.

Now, the child’s brain, being very immature, is absolutely incapable of handling competing primary attachments. So when the child goes to daycare, the parent needs to encourage the child’s attachment to the daycare provider because that doesn’t compete with the parent, but the peer attachment does. So we have to have healthy adult attachments if the child is not going to be with the parent. It’s like Gordon says: in the morning, the parent hands the attachment baton to the teacher or the daycare worker, and in the evening, we take it back. That’s the first point. When kids go to daycare, parents should hang out in that daycare for a few weeks and make sure that their child sees them, the parent, forming relationships with the daycare provider. So that the child then sees, Oh, okay, I can be attached to both of these people. That’s the first thing.

The second thing is, we have to understand how children attach. And the more immature we are, the more primitive—and I don’t mean that in a negative sense—but the more basic our attachment styles are. So the first way that children attach is physically. To the senses, by seeing, hearing, touching, smelling the attachment figure. Smell, by the way, is huge. It’s one of the first things that develops. Babies can distinguish the smell of their own mother’s breast pad from that of other mothers within a few weeks of birth. So the senses are very important to children.

And other forms of attachment, such as being loyal or being important, holding somebody else in your heart, those develop later. You might have friends that you might not see for two years, but you still love them, you can hold on to them. Children can’t do that. Young children, they have to see you, hear you, touch you. Now, what does that mean? If they haven’t seen you the whole day, that attachment relationship has been attenuated. You have to regain it. So when your kid comes home from daycare at whatever age, hang out with them. Not for the purpose of telling them what to do or watching television together or anything, but just for the purpose of reestablishing the attachment relationship.

So in the first place, kids go to daycare: form attachment relationships with the nurturing adults. And most daycare workers need to be trained or understand the importance of attachment. They’re not just physical caregivers providing food and supervision. They need to be attachment figures, number one. Number two, at the end of the day, you have to reconnect, reattach with your kids. Especially the younger kids, but any kids, at any age. So we can deal with the daycare, not by going back to some ideal time when kids are with their parents the whole day, that’s no longer available to most of us. But we can understand attachment and then we’ll follow the guidelines of attachment to make sure that the kids being away from us the whole day doesn’t undermine our relationship with them.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, I love these points that you and Dr. Neufeld made in the book about the four ways to nurture attachment. The first one is when they’re infants, when children are very little, you call it “being in their face.” It’s having that face-to-face. And then that becomes “collecting.” I really like that word to describe it. I mean, I’ve seen all these memes and things saying, children want us to light up when they come into the room. Well, there is something to that. When we’re returning to each other, we want to drop everything. It’s so important that we’re not texting in the car or whatever. We’re present, we’re there. I collect you. You’re somebody big to me. You’re important.

Dr. Gabor Maté: You would do that with a lover, wouldn’t you? You do that automatically. We do it automatically with babies, too. I mean, even strangers. I’ve been on many airplanes where there might be a little baby there in somebody’s arms and the baby cries a little bit. Everybody goes, Aww. We just all naturally attune with the baby. That’s just natural. Babies evoke that attunement/connection instinct in us. The problem is that with the separation from our kids, that instinct inside ourselves is actually softened, weakened. So we actually get alienated from our own parenting instinct.

When some parenting “expert” comes along and tells you to practice timeout against a two-year-old, basically they’re saying to you, Use the attachment relationship to punish the child. The child’s biggest need is that you should be delighted and welcoming and unconditionally accepting. And when you use a timeout technique, you say to the child, I know what your biggest fear is: the loss of that relationship. And I’m going to deprive you of the relationship for a certain period of time. Now, to a two-year-old, five minutes is forever. And so that, not only does the culture normalize alienation of children from parents, it even teaches parents to use the child’s biggest need—for your delight in them and acceptance of them, an unconditional connection with them—against the child, to try and control the child. Which creates tremendous insecurity in children. It makes them conform to your desires perhaps, but what does it do to the child’s development?

We have to collect them, which means gather them in under our wing again. And Gordon says, collect them before you direct them.

Janet Lansbury: It does become less organic as children get older and we think, Oh, they’re fine, or They don’t care, or we’re busy or whatever. And how important that still is with a teenager, with a child at any age. I have three adult children, I still stand up—whatever I’m doing—if they walk in the door. It’s like a huge thing to me, run and hug and so excited. I naturally feel that way. But I think we can get caught up in our work and our lives and forget, especially when children maybe are already gone into more of that peer orientation space and then they don’t seem like they care. But they do, right? They really do.

And what can we look for, then, with our younger children? What are some of the warning signs that, Uh-oh, there could be something going on here? I mean, when you talk about the behaviors that children have when they do have that peer orientation, the behaviors that they have toward the parents, what do those look like with young children?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, let me just say that even teenagers need this. Not just even, but especially. Because it’s such a difficult time. They need orientation. And in traditional cultures that orientation was provided by adults and elders.

One of my sons and I are writing a new book together. I mean, we’re just beginning to write it, so I’m not advertising anything here. But it’s going to be called Hello Again: A Fresh Start for Parents and Adult Children. It’s based on a workshop that we do. And all the adults that we speak to, adults in their thirties, forties who still want contact with their parents. They may not want the contact that they have, which is often very troubled, but they want genuine contacts. Never-mind infants, even adults are still looking for that.

So what are the signs when kids are getting alienated from us? Well, first of all, they want to be with each other all the time rather than with us, number one. Number two, with the technology that we’ve very unwisely put into their immature hands, they’re connecting with each other all the time. They will not be soothed by us when they’re upset. They will be more oppositional and resistant to our expectations.

Janet Lansbury: And that part could show up with a child as young as three or four. There’s part of that that naturally happens anyway, but then it can become more of a warning sign if a child is consistently having “behavior issues.” But it’s always a relationship issue when children are having concerning behaviors, it’s usually a relationship issue between us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah. In our society, more and more kids are being diagnosed with this, that, and the other. And many kids are being medicated to control their behaviors, which is a vast social experiment in the manipulation of the child’s biology and the indication is that it’s not particularly good for the child’s brain development. In fact, on the contrary, in many cases. What we’re actually looking at is we identify pathologies in a child, but actually there’s no pathology in a child. What there is is a response in the child to the environment, and particularly to the loss of attachment.

So there’s a so-called diagnosis called oppositional defiant disorder. I say “so-called” because not only does it not exist in reality, not even in theory can it exist. Now, it describes something. So in that sense, it refers to something real. But to say that ODD, that a child has it, is to imply that the child has some kind of a disorder. But let’s just look at it for a minute. Oppositionality by definition is relational. Can you oppose somebody if you’re not in relationship with them? When I talk about this, I say to my listeners, if you don’t understand what I’m saying, lock yourself in a room by yourself, make sure you’re alone, lock the door, and oppose somebody. And if you manage to do it, please put it on YouTube because we want to see what it looks like. So oppositionality by definition implies a relationship. In which case, why are we diagnosing the child rather than looking at the relationship, number one.

Number two, I mentioned individuation, the necessity for us to become individual beings in our own right. That’s nature’s agenda. Why? Because the parents are going to die. And nature’s agenda is that by the time the parents pass, the child has become their own adult person, individuated, knowing themselves. That’s just nature’s agenda for any species.

At age one-and-a-half, the child starts saying no. What do we call that? We call that the terrible twos. Why do we call it the terrible twos? Because we don’t understand there’s nothing terrible about it. What’s actually going on is the child is developing their own will, and in order to develop their own will, as Gordon points out, they have to put up a little fence against the overwhelming and overbearing will of the parent. And that’s that no that they start saying. If you don’t know how to say no, your yeses don’t mean anything at all. So there’s nothing inherently oppositional about it, it’s just that—Gordon calls it counterwill. Counterwill is just countering the will of another so that you can develop your own.

Now, we can manage that easy enough if the attachment relationship is strong. But if we mistake it for a problem, then what we do is when a child expresses their counterwill, their nature-built drive for independence, we push on them even harder. It’s in the nature of counterwill that the more you push on it, the stronger it becomes.

So who are these kids with the so-called oppositional defiant disorders? Number one, they’re kids who have lost the primary healthy attachment with adults. Now, if you’ve lost a relationship with somebody, you’re not going to heed them. You’re not going to listen to them or allow yourself to be guided by them, because orientation follows attachment. We follow, orient by, those people that we trust and are connected to. If, because of all the multiple pressures in our society, which is not the fault of individual parents, children’s relationships to parents have been attenuated, weakened, then their oppositionality increases naturally, number one. Number two, the more we push on it, the more confirmed and out-of-hand it becomes.

So who are these ODD kids? Kids who have lost their relationship with the parents and who’ve been pushed on too much. And then we say they’ve got some kind of pathology. No, they don’t. What we have to do is to go back to basics and rebuild that relationship with them. Trust me, that oppositionality will melt like snow on a warm day. We’ve seen this over and over again. But unfortunately the tendency in our society is to pathologize children’s behavior, rather than to see its sources and its remedies in the attachment relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, that makes a lot of sense.

And then the second point that you make about maintaining that attachment is giving children something to hold on to. In the beginning, that’s a body part, that’s very physical, but it soon becomes emotional as well. And just that feeling of, There’s this person that sees me, knows me so well, is always in my corner, and somebody loves me. And I can go out in the world and deal with some of the challenges, knowing that I have this person to go back to, that sees me better than anyone else.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Even in adult relationships, on separation, don’t we give one another little objects, little mementos? Those are something to hold on to. Children need that. So if the kid goes to daycare, give them a picture of yourself. Give them some cherished, not expensive obviously, but some cherished shared object that they can hold on to. So that’s what we’re talking about, is let them take a piece of you to the daycare or to the school.

Janet Lansbury: And then inviting them. The third one is inviting them to depend on us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yeah. Again, in this society there’s this belief that we have to push kids towards independence, but we don’t. I mean, a mother bear doesn’t have to push the cubs towards independence. At a certain point, it just happens. And the more secure the child is, the more independent they can become. If you look at these attachment experiments with little babies or little toddlers and so on, those kids that are more securely attached are the ones more likely to be able to play independently and then to come back to the mom or the parent when necessary. As Gordon says, to promote independence, invite dependence.

Janet Lansbury: Right.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That drive for independence is inherent in the child. At a certain point, the child developing in a healthy way will say, “I’m going to do it myself.” So you’re going to tie their shoelaces: “I’m going to do it myself.” That drive for mastery is inherent in a human being. It has to be. So we don’t have to promote it, we just have to provide the security so that it can unfold naturally.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And be that person that says, I mean, unless we can’t possibly do it at that moment, and then we say, “Well, I wish I could but I can’t right now.” But that welcomes them. To say, Oh, you want help with your shoes? You know how to do it, but so what? I’m going to help you with your shoes. Of course, I’m always here for you.

And yeah, I mean, the only thing I was thinking when I was reading that that I would maybe add is just that sometimes we have to honor independence when children do show it. Even as an infant, I want to look over here and notice this right now. That we consider honoring that instead of, Come look at me! I’m the only one here! So when a child does choose it—it’s never pushing a child that way, never. But it’s noticing those expressions of independence and honoring them, not stepping on them. Because one thing I really wanted to ask you—

Dr. Gabor Maté: Let me just quickly comment on that.

Janet Lansbury: Okay, yes!

Dr. Gabor Maté: Yes to what you just said. That’s called attunement. Attunement means being aware of and respectful of the internal experience of the other. At a certain point, the infant may have too much of you looking at them. They wish to look away. You let them. You don’t get anxious, Oh, come back, hey! You don’t try to inveigle them back into relationship with you at that moment, because their need at that point is that it’s become too intense for them and they need to just detach for a minute. If you’re attuned with them, and if you’re not anxious, you’ll allow that to happen. If you’re not attuned or if you’re bringing your own needs to bear, your need to connect with the child to dominate, then you’re not going to honor their experience.

So yes, you have to be attuned with the child, which means sometimes you have to let them look away and do their own thing. Usually it won’t last very long, but you need to give them the space to do that. So it begins very early. And very often parents hover too much in that sense. They should be attentive to the child and be there for the child. But hovering means that you’re bringing your own needs.

Janet Lansbury: And fears often, right?

Dr. Gabor Maté: Your own needs and your anxieties, rather than getting your cues from the child’s experience.

Janet Lansbury: I’m sure you’ve been asked this, you and Dr. Neufeld probably both, but how does your advice in this book stand with all of this research that’s come out about the over-parenting and the stifling of children, and how that’s linked to children who are depressed, anxious, have no sense of themselves, no individuation, I guess.

Dr. Gabor Maté: So for sure. It’s like I just said, it’s—

Janet Lansbury: Lack of attunement, right?

Dr. Gabor Maté: It needs to arise from the child’s needs, not from the parents’ anxieties. So a lot of that stuff has to do with the parents’ fears. We’ve got to take them to this class and that class and make sure they get into the right school. And if we don’t push them academically, they’re going to… In other words, it actually comes from the anxieties of the parent. And it also comes from the sense of the parent that they’ve lost a relationship with the child and they need to overcompensate. So as long as the relationship is healthy and well-attached, you can’t over-hover.

Let me tell you about a study that was done quite some years ago now. They looked at mothers and young children, I don’t know, about a hundred or 200 mothers. I quote the study in one of my books, not in this one. And some mothers, very few, were kind of distant and unavailable emotionally for the children as they interacted. Most mothers were good, they interacted, they played with the child. Some mothers were called supermoms. These supermoms cuddled the kid, extra loving, extra connection, and so on. Attuned, but very warm. Thirty years or more later, the kids most emotionally stable or the adults most emotionally stable, were the children of these supermoms. And what the researcher said is, you can’t love children too much. Now, loving them is not the same as hovering all the time and controlling them.

So the research doesn’t have to do with attachment, it has to do with control and intrusion. And yeah, if you control kids and intrude on them, you’re going to get negative results. But that’s got nothing to do with attachment. In fact, it’s a substitute for genuine attachment.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And do you also think it threatens the attachment relationship and could cause this peer orientation? That if a child feels like, they’re too controlling or they’re trying to mold me. I mean, I think sometimes parents feel like they’re supposed to judge their child, they’re supposed to keep on them. That that is what love is. That they’re supposed to mold, they’re supposed to be on them for everything and make it all happen. And there’s no trust in the child’s nature. And so naturally children can grow up to not trust their own nature, because their parent that they look to never trusted theirs.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Returning, I mentioned this book I’m writing, we do these workshops, my son and I, for adults and their parents. This is what we hear so often from parents. I wish I had left them alone. I wish I hadn’t tried to control them so much. They just needed me to be there for them and be there with them, not to try and direct them all the time. And the residues into adulthood are so negative. So we’re not trusting the child, we’re not trusting ourselves, we’re not trusting nature.

See, children who are connected to adults naturally want to learn from adults. We use this word discipline, but what does the word discipline actually mean? We think it means punishment. No, it doesn’t. Who had disciples? Jesus, for example, had disciples. Not because he punished or threatened them, but because he loved them and they loved him. So then naturally they wanted to learn from him.

So that’s one of the ways we attach, I mentioned the attachment physically. The next way to attach is actually by wanting to be the same as. So when children are well-attached to parents, they’ll copy what the parent does. I mean, look at all the teaching that that saves. There’s a lot of things we don’t have to teach our kids, they just learn it by watching us. Kids who are well-attached to parents will naturally want to emulate the parent, to be the same as the parent. Kids who are peer-attached want to be the same as their peers and behave like their peers and talk like their peers and look like their peers and wear the same shoes.

Janet Lansbury: And as you point out, these aren’t unconditionally loving peers. They can’t be, towards that child. And so the child is not getting the kind of attachment that they need.

Dr. Gabor Maté: No, but they’re getting the only one available to them. And the point is, these parents who think we have to guide and judge and control our kids. No, you don’t. You have to provide the warm attachment relationship. And then you set the guidelines, for which you don’t need to use force because the child who’s connected to you will naturally want to follow your guidelines. So you can back off on the coercive aspect.

There are limits. You’re not going to let a kid run across the street in order to find out for themselves how dangerous it is. You will not allow that to happen. If you live in New York, you’re not going to let your kid crawl out into the winter snow naked. I mean, parenting is a hierarchy, but it’s a benign, beneficial hierarchy.

The problem with peer orientation is it actually flattens the hierarchy. So when kids start looking to each other for guidance and validation, they start resisting the parents’ natural authority. As long as we have that natural authority, we don’t have to keep pushing our kids or cajoling them or judging them or controlling them. They will naturally, literally, fall into line. And by the way, this book has been out now for what, almost 30 years? Published in close to 40 languages. We get messages from all over the world that it changed their whole family dynamics and how they relate to their kids. And things are so much easier now and so much warmer now and so much effortless now. The stronger the attachment relationship, the less the effort you have to make.

Janet Lansbury: Because you’re prioritizing what really works. You’re putting your energy into what actually does help children with their behavior and every other thing that you’re trying to do, if you’re thinking about trying to mold them.

Dr. Gabor Maté: The problem is that by now, we’re talking 2024, by now, we’ve had several generations of parents who themselves were brought up peer-oriented. So to them this looks totally natural. They can’t even see the alternative, even though historically it’s an aberration. Evolutionarily, as I said earlier, it’s simply a blink of an eye. Not even that. And even historically, it’s just a few generations old. But it’s become so entrenched and so endemic in our culture that we take it for granted.

My most recent book is called The Myth of Normal. What I’m saying in general in that book, and I mention the peer orientation dynamic as well, is that things have become normalized in this culture that, from the human point of view, are neither healthy nor natural. And so peer orientation has become so normalized that most researchers don’t even realize it’s there. They just think it’s the way it needs to be. It’s unseen. It’s like a hidden epidemic that’s striking almost every family without people recognizing it. And we’re dealing with the effects of it, rather than dealing with the causes of it.

Janet Lansbury: So you’ve added on chapters about the digital age and then now this recent one about the effects of the pandemic with children. Could you talk a little about how parents can navigate the technology and screens and all of that with a very young child? If you have guidelines for that?

Dr. Gabor Maté: First of all, as a physician, I can tell you that the parts of the brain that are excited by the technology are the same parts of the brain excited by addictive drugs. The dopamine circuits, primarily. As a matter of fact, there’s a technology company called Dopamine Lab. The technology companies hire neuroscientists. I’m not making this up. They hire neuroscientists to target children’s brains in the most addictive fashion so they get hooked on the technology. And if you look at the research on brain scans of children who watch a lot of digital media, that interferes with the circuits of thinking and emotional connection and insight and creativity. So this is serious stuff.

Furthermore, I used to work with a highly addicted population here in Vancouver. One of my medical interests has been addiction. You take a child who’s hooked on technology and try and separate them from technology. You know what you’ve got? You’ve got an addict in withdrawal. The same rage, the same disdain, the same oppositionality, the same outrage, and the same obstreperous holding on to that object. This stuff is addictive.

If I was parenting kids today, I wouldn’t let them look at the screen for years. Certainly I would not let them look at a screen on their own for years. I would not give them a cell phone. I would not give them an iPad. If I watched television with them, I’d be choosing what they’re watching. But mostly I’d stay away from it. And I would stay away from texting and emailing in their presence.

Janet Lansbury: I was just going to ask about that, yes.

Dr. Gabor Maté: I don’t know if you’ve seen this, but believe me, I see it all the time. A parent is pushing a kid in a tram, a buggy, and their parent is on a cell phone. What message are we giving the kid when we’re absent in their presence? So it’s not that I would do without my computer or my cell phone, but I would not be letting them interrupt my relationship and interaction with the child.

And so it’s like everything else. There’s age-appropriate behaviors that are okay for one age, but not okay at another. I mean, it’s okay to have a glass of wine every once in a while, but nobody wants to give a glass of wine to a two-week-old. It’s not age-appropriate. Developmentally, it’s harmful. But there’s no rush. Even if they don’t see technology until age 10, which seems like a sacrilege in this society, they’ll learn it overnight. It’s not that they’re missing anything.

The problem is that parents are so busy and so stressed. Parents are desperate for a respite, and one way to get respite is to plunk the kid down in front of a TV set or to give them a cell phone. Now they’re going to be okay for hours, but at what cost? So while I understand the desire for the parents for a break and respite, and therefore using the technology as the babysitter, it comes at a great cost.

Janet Lansbury: I like that you pointed out that even pushing the pram when you’re not maybe facing the child or if the child’s on your back or front or whatever, that they can sense, because they sense everything about us, that you’re doing something else. Even when they can’t see our face. You know, that “still face” experiment always comes to mind when I think of us being on the phone with the baby there and suddenly we’re down a rabbit hole of something else that has nothing to do with them and how strange that is. But even not seeing our face, they sense that I’m not being collected by this person. I’m not in relationship with this person right now, in that moment.

And this is going to sound extreme to a lot of parents I think out there who have a lot of reasons for wanting the phones, but I believe as you do. And I feel thankful that my children are older and I don’t have to deal with it right now because it is very challenging. And I really do hand it to parents that are able to, not get rid of their phones, but have boundaries for themselves. Especially in those times that are togetherness times, the collecting when we’re in the transitions, when we’re greeting each other, saying goodbye to each other, the meal times.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Not to mention what that constant engagement with technology does to the parent. This last summer, I took a two-week break from digital media. I tell you, I was an addict in withdrawal. I turned the cell phone off. But even having turned it off, I picked it up several times a day, and then I thought, What am I doing? It’s not even on.

Janet Lansbury: How many days did it take you to not be checking it anymore?

Dr. Gabor Maté: The impulse never quite went away, but I never did turn it on for two weeks and I got calmer and more present to life as time went on. So what I’m saying is, quite apart from the impact on our kids, our constant cell phone obsession, what does it do to us? We become more scattered and less present, which then has an impact on the child.

Janet Lansbury: Yes. I wonder if you’d like to talk a little about this additional chapter, and then I promise to let you go.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thank you. So look, COVID, the pandemic was interesting because it imposed an isolation on a lot of people, a lot of families. And I know there’s a lot of controversy in retrospect about those policies, and I’m not going to get into that. I’m going to talk about actually what happened. Two interesting things happened. On the one hand, the incidents of child abuse went up. More children ended up in emergency wards throughout North America with injuries sustained in home violence. Home violence went up. In some families, drinking behavior went up. On the other hand, in some families it was a godsend. And some parents said, My God, I got to be at home to see my kids’ milestones and I got to interact with them. I learned how they played and I played with them.

So what actually happened was that in families where there was multi-generational, unresolved trauma and fewer resources, emotionally speaking, the pressure of isolation took away from some parents their usual lightning rods, their usual ways of dispersing their stress and their anxieties. They couldn’t go to football games or sports events, entertainment events or to the pub. So the unresolved frustrations and stresses and traumas became expressed in the family. And for those people and for those kids, COVID was a disaster. And furthermore, for the peer-oriented kids, it was a huge loss because all of a sudden they lost their attachments with the people that they were naturally—not naturally, but unnaturally oriented towards, and they were at a loss.

Those families where the attachment dynamics were functional, and those parents who were either economically or emotionally or both resourced enough, this is an opportunity to deepen and warm up and build the attachment relationship with the kids.

So some people think that the COVID experience showed the importance of peer relationships, because look how kids suffered in their absence. Actually what it showed was how unnaturally important peer relationships became, so that in their absence, kids suffered. That’s what it actually proved. Rather than countering our thesis, it proved it. But again, because people took that for granted that it’s the way it should be, they didn’t notice that. They thought it was the loss of the peer relationships that created the problem. No, it was the already-absent relationship with the adults that created the problem. In the absence of the peer relationships, the kids just got more unbalanced, which just shows that the peer relationships had been overemphasized in the first place. So that’s how we understand it. And for us, it just meant we have just doubled down on that relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Wow, fascinating. Really eye-opening, and it makes a lot of sense. It really does.

I just want to say for everybody out there that this book, it will help you at every stage. It will help you to form secure attachments. And it will also help you notice when things might be not going the way that we hope and there’s some weaknesses in our attachment. And it also helps at any age to know how to get it back. As you said earlier, there’s nothing our child at any age wants more—or that we want more—but there’s nothing they want more than to reconnect. They just don’t know how. And we have to be the ones to lead that way back. But it will work, because it’s what children want more than anything. Whether it’s the two-year-old that we yelled at that just wants to feel safe with us again, or the adult child that feels estranged and doesn’t want to go through the rest of their life feeling that loss.

Dr. Gabor Maté: The two major responses we get to the book, some people say, Thanks, this saved our family because now I understand things. But the second interesting response we get is, Thank you, this book validated my instincts. So much of the parenting advice people get actually separates them from their instincts. So that when parents say to us, Thank you, your book validated my instincts. And now I can tell my friends who are telling me to use separation and timeout, “You know what? Here are these experts telling me that my instincts are right.” Now, you shouldn’t need experts to tell you that your instincts are right. As a matter of fact, I’d say in any contest between experts and instincts, listen to your instincts and forget the experts.

Janet Lansbury: Because your instincts know how to attach, that’s a primal thing that we all have. Your instincts know how to attach to your child. Your reasonable advice doesn’t necessarily.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right. But again, instincts have to be evoked by the environment. So anyway, the two responses we get are Thank you, now we see it differently. But the other response we get is Thank you, this validated my instincts.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, I mean this book is so informative and it’s alarming, though. And I could see where you might also get people saying, Oh, come on, that’s hogwash. It’s good to be with peers and it’s the best thing that could happen. But as you two point out, it’s when you come to that peer relationship from a place of you’re still holding on to your parent as a primary attachment, that that’s when it is healthy and works well.

Dr. Gabor Maté: We’re not saying kids shouldn’t play with each other. Children always have, since creation. But what was the context? The context of kids playing with each other was under the watchful eyes of caring adults. I remember growing up in Budapest, Hungary, in the 1950s. We played out in the street with other kids, but there were always parents on the balconies looking at us. And every neighborhood home was a home to all the kids so that we would go to each others’ homes and other mothers would give us lunch or look after us and so on. So that there was a community, a community of caring adults. So it’s not that children shouldn’t play with each other, it’s that that should not be the primary relationship, number one.

And number two, it needs to be in the context of adults being present. So if you’re going to have playdates on the weekend, for God’s sake, be there in the same room with the kids. Don’t have the adults chatting away here and the kids on their own. And adults should always be present with them. So maintain that primary relationship with the adults. Yes, kids should play with each other. No, that should not be the primary relationship.

Janet Lansbury: Because it’s about influence, right? Who’s influencing your child the most? We want that to be us.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right.

Janet Lansbury: It’s such a hopeful book. And that last chapter was just such a beautiful ending, really hopeful and will leave parents feeling not afraid, but that this is normal. I mean, it isn’t normal like you said, but it is the new unfortunate normal and that there’s a lot that they can do to counteract some of the draws and influences. That that really is in our power and that children want it to be and need it to be.

Dr. Gabor Maté: That’s right.

Janet Lansbury: Thank you so much for sharing with us and for this book. Your work is really profound in so many ways.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Thanks for having me.

Janet Lansbury: It’s an honor. Thank you so much. Take care, and we’ll hopefully engage again at some point in the future.

Dr. Gabor Maté: Take care.

***

Thank you so much for listening and for all your kind support. We can do this.

The post Dr. Gabor Maté on Why Parents Matter More Than Ever appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Should We Resort to Using Force?”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be doing something a little different, thanks to a couple who graciously agreed to consult with me here. One of them reached out via email with concerns about her four-year-old’s unwillingness to cooperate with the steps leading up to bedtime and also during morning transitions. The parents wondered if there was a point when following through with limits around bathtime, toothbrushing, dressing should mean using force. And as a couple, they have differing views about this issue. They’ve tried sticker charts, taking away storytime if she doesn’t get ready in time, working with her to help develop a bedtime routine. But none of those strategies have worked out. So they asked if I could share any thoughts that I have.

As is often the case, when I read their note, I had way more questions than I did answers. So I very much appreciate them being willing to share with us here.

Hello, and thank you so much for being here and being willing to share with me and listeners about your issues. I imagine there’s other parents going through similar things, so I really appreciate you being willing to be on with me. I would like to start with your note that you sent me a couple of weeks ago, and here it is:

Thank you so much for all your lessons on parenting and developing respectful connections with my two daughters while holding boundaries and ensuring that my needs matter too. My current challenge is with my almost-four-year-old, who often engages in testing behavior at bedtime. She stalls, refuses, or delays putting on her pajamas, brushing her teeth, getting in bed, and staying in bed. For a few weeks we used a sticker chart and that helped motivate and then that behavior stuck for a while when we discontinued the chart, but now we are back to the same testing behavior. This behavior also happens when getting ready for preschool in the morning.

So my question to you is, how to enforce boundaries that seem like they would require physical intervention within the respectful parenting framework? When she won’t put on her pajamas, do we hold her body down to do so? If she will not go into the bathtub, do we pick her up and put her in, then keep putting her back in each time she climbs out? Do we brush her teeth for her while she tries to keep her mouth shut?

This has been a major area of conflict with my husband, who believes that these actions are part of following through after providing clear limits and acknowledging feelings, while I see them as overly controlling. To me it is really hard not to see it as too physical, and triggers my own history of being held down by my older brother when I didn’t do what he wanted me to do. I don’t want to be so physical, putting on her pajamas while my daughter fights it with her body and screams. But other options we have tried, like taking away storytime if she doesn’t get ready in time, using sticker charts, working with her to help develop a bedtime routine, haven’t worked.

Any thoughts you have would be so helpful. Thank you for your help.

As I mentioned in the note that I sent back to you, one of the reasons I wanted you to come on and talk to me here is that I have a lot of questions for you about what’s going on here. If you don’t mind, I’d like to start with that. Why do you think she’s struggling this way? What do you think could be going on there that makes her want to stall and resist and refuse?

Parent 1: Well, one piece that we’ve noticed just this last week is that we’ve moved up bedtime a bit. And realizing that some of it had to do with her just being overtired, and that’s helped some. It had gotten to the point where she was kicking and spitting when we were trying to help her get to bed, and that’s not typical behavior for her. And so recognizing that she, I mean she’s often going to be tired in the evening, but she was really overtired and that was making it even more challenging. That’s one thought that comes to mind.

Another is that she has an older sister who maybe she wants to be playing with and sometimes the older sister gets to stay up a little later.

And I think another part of it is just the testing part. She can see that I’m tentative, perhaps, in terms of I’ll say, “It’s time to put on pajamas,” and she just won’t answer and she’ll walk away and I kind of don’t know what to do. And I know from reading and listening to your podcast that sometimes that confidence is needed that can help them see that I’m her strong leader. And so perhaps that also plays a role.

Those are some of the thoughts that I’ve had. I don’t know if you have any others.

Parent 2: Well, you nailed the two big ones, which are that she’s probably been overtired and moving up the bedtime over the last week I think has made a big difference. I think a lot of it is sibling-related, dealing with her big sister is a big part of it. I think that her older sister, of course, is further along developmentally and more capable and more verbal. Even though our younger daughter is quite verbal and communicative, she’s not as communicative as our older daughter. So I think it often feels hard for her to get attention, get a word in edgewise, and she’s often using behaviors that are maybe more intense to try to get some of the attention that she’s looking for. And then I think part of it is the boundaries that you were just talking about. I think sometimes the boundaries aren’t totally clear to her.

One thing that I’ll add on to that is that you and I just do things a little bit differently as parents. Like when my back was hurting and it was really hard for me to reach to the far side of the bathtub to do her bathtime, that’s one place where I put in a boundary that I don’t think you have, which is that, “I can’t wash you if you’re on the far side of the bathtub. I need you to be on the near side of the bathtub.” And so she’d learned that that’s a boundary where she can try to test it and see what happens with me. So that’s one place where, to finish a bath with her, I would pick her up and take her out of the bath. But for you, that’s not something that you like doing and it’s not a boundary that you have in your mind. So there’s a difference between the two of us there. Does that make sense?

Parent 1: Yeah, yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think that we do have differences in some of the boundaries. I think she learns some of them really well and then other times I can see that might be confusing to her, to know where the boundary is between the two of us.

Janet Lansbury: Well, I’m hearing a lot of insightfulness here on both of your parts, so that definitely works in your favor as parents and in figuring this out, figuring out what’s going on and what we can do to help. I love that you both nailed the tiredness thing. It’s so all-consuming for young children and they aren’t able to see it coming in the way that we might as adults, where we’re like, Ah, I’m getting tired. And a lot of children have the temperament where they go right into this hyperactive, really unreasonable, dysregulated place. So that’s great that you’re both noticing that element, that you can help her there by starting earlier. I also wonder how old is the older one, your older child?

Parent 2: She’s six. They’re two-and-a-half years apart.

Janet Lansbury: And do they have time together at the end of the day?

Parent 2: Yeah, they do have time together at the end of the day. They often play together really nicely in the evenings for half-an-hour or an hour before dinner, after dinner, before bathtime, before bedtime.

Janet Lansbury: Wonderful.

Parent 1: And they also share a room, they have bunk beds, so they kind of are in the same space at night too.

Parent 2: They also do have conflict between each other and they work on resolving that. There’s lots of the older sister trying to keep things away from the younger sister and the younger sister trying to destroy the things that the older sister is working on. I mean, something along those lines probably happens every day, but they often are able to resolve it on their own, and then of the times that they’re not, they’re often able to resolve it with a tiny bit of observation from one of us.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, that I would say is par for the course, that they have conflicts. And that’s actually the benefit of having a sibling, is that you learn how to work through conflicts with other children and with peers and in all relationships in your life. It’s an incredible gift that they have this kind of relationship. It sounds ideal.

Why is it that you believe, though, that this is getting in the way with bedtime? Because it sounds like, well, your younger one has to go into the bunk bed before her sister does and be alone in there, and then her sister comes in later after she’s asleep. Is that how it works?

Parent 1: There was a period where we separated them because the younger daughter would just kind of scream, not letting the older one sleep. So we tried this for a year and we would just bring our older daughter into our room to sleep until the younger one stopped screaming and then we’d carry her back into the other room when our younger daughter was asleep. It was just a long time of really wanting them to share a room that wasn’t working, in the sense that I think that our younger daughter was getting some attention. I don’t know, I’m guessing that it’s attention, just doing a lot of screaming and yelling, not letting the older daughter sleep.

But that sort of got fixed in the last few months, so we had them in the same room going down at the same time, but half the nights there’s a lot of this testing behavior. And then in the last week, really, after I sent the message, we were like, Let’s put her down earlier! And that’s seemed to have helped some in terms of the intensity of the behavior.

Janet Lansbury: So now she has her own bedtime that’s earlier and she’s going to bed without the sister there?

Parent 1: Correct, yes.

Parent 2: Right.

Janet Lansbury: And that’s working better. That’s interesting. Yeah, the children can sort of play off each other, which does make it harder for them to let go. What all of us want at the end of the day when we’re going to sleep is to be able to kind of let go. Let go of the excitement in life, let go of the dramas that might be happening, let go of how we might be winding our parents up. She sounds like a very intense person, this younger one. I love that kind of child, but it does have challenges. It can be so much harder for them to let go.

Anyway, it sounds like you’ve gotten over one hurdle by figuring this out that she got too tired, which makes everything much harder for her and harder for you. The other part here that I wanted to talk about is, since you sort of know why she’s struggling, stalling, and resisting, so we want to be able to do what you’ve done by acknowledging the overtiredness. Which is kind of fixing this from the inside out by understanding what elements are making it not work, what she’s expressing here that she might need. And then from there, partnering with her. Because even sticker charts, while totally harmless, they’re kind of pitting you against her. That’s how children feel: Here, you get to do this fun thing if you comply with what we want. Whether that’s a sticker chart or storytime, it makes children feel a distance between them and us that can kind of make these matters worse. It just looks and feels a lot different to a child than when we’re partnering with her.

Another part of this, I don’t know if it’s the way that you expressed it in the letter, but it sounds like—and you can correct me if I’m wrong—that you are kind of asking her to do these things, in terms of getting ready for bed or in the morning, and she’s not doing them. Is that sort of the way it’s going?

Parent 1: Yes, I would say that’s correct. “It’s time to get dressed.” And she won’t get dressed.

Janet Lansbury: Right. So what she’s showing is that this is a time when she needs more of a helping her through these transitions. Especially the night transition is the hardest one of all because children are tired, but all transitions tend to be challenging. And getting up in the morning and getting out the door—I mean, I can totally relate to the stalling and the procrastinating and all of that stuff because I do that myself. At this age, though, children often need that parent helping them, guiding them through the channel. That feeling that we’re totally willing to do that. And actually we want to do that, because this is a way that we get to really separate from you when you go to school in a way that feels like there’s a lot of relationship that’s a part of it. And it feels better to us, too, than getting in a battle with her in the morning or at night before she goes to bed, certainly. It can feel better to us to hold on to that I worked with her and I helped her from the beginning.

Yes, she’s four years old and can do a lot of this herself, but there are often periods that children go through with transitions where it’s like they revert back to being a one-and-a-half-year-old, where they really need us to walk them through. And she sounds like she’s either going through that or she’s that kind of person right now. It doesn’t mean you’re going to be doing this forever until she’s a teenager. But for now, I would consider both these periods—the morning and the night—as this is time that you’re going to be connected with her, that you’re going to do caregiving. It’s like baby caregiving with her, to help her get from point A to point B.

Again, it’s that feeling of distance that she has where we’re over here and she’s over there. I want you to do this and you’re not doing it. But what she’s feeling is, There’s a part of me that’s still in independent-mode. Just because you tell me to do something, I can’t do it sometimes. And just be on my side and help me through. I mean, she can’t obviously say that, but that’s often what children are needing. That we are like, okay, it’s bedtime. And you said something about that you developed a routine, so here’s a routine that she hopefully had input on: What do you need at bedtime? What do you need from me? How do you want this to go? And then knowing that no, we’re not going to be able to make a deal that she’s always going to be able to shake on and follow through with. She still needs the backup of, We’re there, we’re taking you through.

That’s how I would approach it, so that right from the beginning, you’re, “Okay, now it’s time to get your clothes on. Here we go. And now we’re going to do this, and then we’re going to do that.” And I’m not saying that it’ll all be perfect and smooth then, but that’s the way I would look at this for yourselves. And you two could take turns or whoever’s available, to give her that 100% nurturing through that time. Okay, so now she’s saying, “No, I don’t want to do that!” The thing is, children often don’t, or they do it a lot less, when we’re in there with this positive, helpful, we’re doing this together, here we go, my love vibe, instead of the it’s time for you to do this attitude. So sometimes that will actually just override. They might still go, “No, I don’t want to. I don’t want to!” But they give in much easier because they’re getting that nurturing that they’re unconsciously asking for.

Parent 2: I think that is great advice. And just speaking for myself, I’ve heard you give that advice on other podcasts and we’ve been doing that and I think it has really helped. It has been great, for me at least, to switch my mindset from I need my daughter to do these things! to, Oh wow, my daughter really needs my help right now. And I remember you saying on a podcast about hard pickups from preschool or daycare, about kids running away: “Just don’t let your kid run away from you. Get there and give them a hug and then stay by their side for the whole time and then your kid can’t run away. And then there’s no conflict there anymore.” Or with these sorts of routines, to switch from saying, Wow, I just need my daughter to do her bedtime routine, to, Oh, my daughter is really tired and she’s only three, so she doesn’t know how to do this on her own and she needs my help. And I think that has made a big difference.

Even doing that, when we go into it and we let her know that the transition is coming: it’s going to be bedtime in 10 minutes, it’s going to be bedtime in five minutes, it’s going to be bedtime in one more minute, take one more moment to do one more thing. Then when it’s bedtime, I say, “Okay, it’s time to head up for bedtime. Do you want to walk or do you want me to carry you?” I will carry her or I’ll hold her hand. And I’ve had a lot of success doing that. Even so, she might start screaming that she can’t walk, and I’ll say, “Oh yeah, you are too tired to walk. I understand, that makes sense. I’ll carry you. I’m happy to carry you.” Sometimes that works.

Or sometimes she screams, “No, I want mama to carry me!” I mean, sometimes we look at each other and maybe mama is free and can pick her up and carry her, but I think this is where I start wondering about boundaries. Because if I’ve told her, “It’s time to go up for bedtime, I’m happy to carry you, I’m here,” is that a place where I ought to be saying, You really had these perfectly good options in front of you and you said no to walking and I’m here and I’m taking the lead in this bedtime, so I’m just going to pick you up. Even though mama’s on the other side of the house and she’s fully capable of taking you upstairs, right now I’m the one who’s doing it. But then that will often become a point of conflict between my daughter and me where she’ll just be screaming for the entire bedtime that she wants mama to do whatever. Does that make sense?

Janet Lansbury: It does, it does. And it’s great to hear these details of what’s going on. So the other thing I would say is, knowing that transitions are very challenging and a time of dysregulation, especially the nighttime one for young children. She’s still totally in that category at age four, four can be a challenging age. Six does get a lot easier by then, but four is still ripe for falling apart when it’s time to do these things. So knowing that going in, I would give her the most minimal choices, if any, and I wouldn’t give her that kind of countdown. Because putting my toddler hat on or my four-year-old hat on, I’m getting wound up by that. One more minute, here we go . . . For a child with this kind of sensitivity, it can be unraveling to feel that warning vibe. I know you don’t mean it that way, you mean it very lovingly, but it can come off as, Alright, here we go . . . and like, I have a feeling there might be trouble here. That’s the way you said it in your voice saying it to me. Maybe you’re not saying it that way to her, but that trepidation feeling.

Instead I’d say, “You know what? In a few minutes it’s going to be time to go upstairs and I can’t wait to do bedtime with you.” That’s the only warning part. And saying it very positively like that and then going up to her, “Okay, come on, let’s go.” Taking her hand, putting your arm around her. You see her starting to stall, “You know what, I’m going to pick up my little baby bear” or whatever, and, “I’m so glad I can still do this!” And now she’s screaming, Mommy, mommy! “Oh no, you want mommy.”

And maybe she can’t hear you from then out, but if she goes there—which again, there’s so much more chance of it when we’re leaving open those choices and all those things that she can’t handle. It’s like, I can’t handle this, I can’t handle that, I can’t handle that. And it’s like one on top of the other and, Now, I’m done. She’s gone off into that dysregulation place. And so if she gets like that anyway, even if you do kind of come in early with this, I call it the “confident momentum” of not giving her those choices and all those pauses and all those places of making decisions that are really, really hard for most young children. Or all of us when we’re in tense periods in our life, and young children still are in their development, there’s so much going on.

Even with all that, if she’s now screaming for mommy, I would see it as, You know what? She’s venting her day right now. I would perceive it that way. And, I’m going to be the hero that doesn’t get flustered by that, doesn’t try to call in mommy.

I would not do that, even if mom’s right there. I would not try to fix it that way because it will help her if she can just let go and be gone at that point. I would just take her up. If she’s screaming, cover your ears or if she’s trying to hurt you or something, say, “You know what? I can’t.” Or don’t even say it. Just put her down and just somehow get her along that way.

When you talk about force, you could call it force, but it’s not the kind that you two are both worried about where you have to hold her down. It’s that papa bear/mama bear momentum that I guess could be called force, but it’s really more when you can’t do it yourself, I’m going to carry you through attitude. And not all these words to her. I wouldn’t try to talk to her about it, especially if she’s at that point.

Then with details like the bath, I mean the bath is optional, really. Bathing is a nice luxury, I think. I mean for me at least! But for her it’s like you could wash her, you could washcloth her back a little if she’s been playing in mud or something like that or wash her hands. And I would do that with confident momentum. “You know what, we’re going to put these hands in here and we got to do this,” and, “Oh, you don’t want to and you want mommy and this is just not going your way!” If you’re going to say anything, just be understanding that she’s falling apart and coming from that place. But a bath should really be a voluntary thing because we want to present it positively. And like I said, I think it is positive.

It’s not make or break that if she doesn’t have a bath—unless she’s been working in a construction site or something—that there’s going to be something wrong with that. It’s just that we want this routine to go, and also maybe she said she wanted to do that. And then you might say, “It looks like it’s going to be too hard for you to be in the bath, so we’re going to skip it this time.” Not mad at her, not, Well, you said!, not going up against her in that way. But really on her side, as somebody that you see is almost like a basket case at this point. This is especially true if she was overtired.

Brushing the teeth, you do the best you can. The pajamas, I mean, if she has to sleep without pajamas, it’s not the end of the world. But I think you’ll find it’s easier—I mean, you say you’re already finding it easier that she’s not overtired, but I think you’ll find it easier when you approach it as, Okay, I got to get you dressed. That’s my job, and I got to do this. And we’re not annoyed with her, because we know she’s not in her best mind right now and she just needs help. She just needs us to get her from point A to point B as best we can. It’s not purposeful behavior that she’s doing. And then I think you’ll find there’s less of it.

I wanted to talk to your partner here about her feeling tentative because that is, as you both realize, that is also getting in the way. And understandably. I’m so sorry you had that experience as a child. A lot of parents that I work with have trouble with being physical in the way that I was just describing. Having that confidence to start early with momentum, to see your job as heroic, and there are physical aspects of that. If we’re tentative, then we’re leaving open all those spaces, we’re going to keep giving her those kinds of choices. Oh, you don’t want me? Okay, daddy, and, Okay, are you ready for me to do this? Instead of, You know what, I’m going to do this. I know I’m doing the right thing, I know I’m caring for you, that you’re showing me you need my help, and I’m happy to do it. It’s not the same as going up against you. I’m overriding some of the difficulty that you’re having, is really the way it is.

Parent 1: Yeah, that’s helpful. I think it’s some of what you described as putting pajamas on, the bathtub, those sorts of things, being voluntary, I think sort of trying to better understand that piece. Because I think there are times where we can come in with that more positive attitude and catching it earlier and it works. And other times where she just hides under the bed or hides behind furniture. I think she can kind of feel her power in terms of the pajamas, getting the pajamas on. And so I guess I wonder if in that situation when she’s—I’m using the word fighting, but that’s not what I mean—where she’s just really having a hard time or testing in those moments, would that make sense to let that go? Or would you say that’s important to get her pajamas on?

Janet Lansbury: That’s interesting. I don’t disagree with you saying fighting. But what you said is so key, about the power. So yes, she’s unconsciously trying to understand also, besides feeling not her best self and kind of a mess, she’s trying to understand and reckon with, in a way, the power that this has with her parents. That when she hides, now you’re frustrated or however you’re being or mad or trying to get her out of there. So what we want to do with that is not give it power.

That’s what I meant about cutting our losses sometimes and letting go of certain things. I mean, it’s not like I can give you a set plan. It’s a feeling that you have with her of she’s trying to get you wound up by something—again, I believe on an unconscious level—and you’re not going to do it. You’re not going to take the bait because you see beyond. Going under the bed, it’s so silly. So am I going to get annoyed with that? If I have this agenda, I’ve got to do this and she’s got to have the pajamas and she’s got to have the bath, that’s going to set me up to be annoyed when it’s not going my way. But if I’m just like, I’m going to do the best I can to help my little girl, and I’m not afraid of touching her and picking her up and doing all those things. Because it is loving, especially if I’m acknowledging.

If she’s screaming for mommy and daddy’s taking her and if you’re like, “You want your mom, you don’t want me,” knowing it’s not personal, then it’s so compassionate. It’s so loving. There’s nothing even remotely abusive or wrong there for her. She’s feeling that hero come in and take care of her.

But yeah, when she’s doing that kind of silly stuff, I would say maybe, “Okay, I’m going to go file my nails and let me know when you’re ready for the book because I’m happy to read it for a few more minutes.” Very positive, very you’re not going to get me with this stuff. And that will give you confidence when you realize you’re the one that actually has all the power, not her. She doesn’t want to have the power to annoy you with these antics, and she doesn’t have to if you don’t give it to her.

Parent 1: That feels really powerful. I could just feel myself, I have to get these nine things done to get her in bed! I think that’s where she gets the power. You’re absolutely right that I am like, Okay, now how do I convince her to put on her pajamas? And now how do I convince her to brush her teeth? And if she doesn’t, I have to make her do it. So then I’m trying all the tricks. We can’t read a book, or you’re not going to get to say goodnight to your sister, all the things. I’m pulling them out because she has to get the pajamas on. But if she doesn’t have to get the pajamas on, then okay. If she doesn’t have to brush her teeth. I mean, hopefully she doesn’t not want to brush her teeth every night, it doesn’t get to that. But I don’t think it does. The other day that came up and we were like, “Oh, okay, you don’t have to brush your teeth to go to school today.” She’s like, “Oh, I want to. I don’t want cavities.” And so she still did. I think that’s just really powerful to take the air out of it all by recognizing none of it has to get done.

Janet Lansbury: Right. I love that you had that experience where she wanted to brush her teeth! What does that tell you? I mean, everything, right there. This is about your dynamic with her. That’s all. And so what she’s feeling when you’re putting this really intense agenda on yourself. I mean, look what you’re doing to yourself. You’re kind of making it impossible for you to be a confident parent right there. No. Own your power.

You don’t have to tell her and talk her into things. Say, “Okay, here’s your clothes. I’m going to put this on.” You really can’t do it? Don’t do it, then. Maybe there’s ways that you can practice with her during times when she’s not having difficulty like this, where you come in very positively with physical touch. I mean, I’m sure you do have this. You just put your arm around her right away, you’re not tentative about touching her, that you have to ask her permission for everything or whatever. I mean, I know that that’s out there. You’re not one of these people that anybody should worry about making a child do things and breaking their boundaries physically. You’re the other direction. But children read that as, She can’t be the leader. I don’t want to be the leader, but I’m kind of stuck here trying to get her to be the leader. It’s not a comfortable feeling for her.

Parent 1: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. There’s definitely a place for picking her up and helping her and coming to it from that perspective as her leader and helping her through things. And letting go when it starts to feel like a power struggle. That feeling that I have in my body is a cue that, Huh, maybe this thing isn’t necessary. Maybe she doesn’t have to eat a banana before she goes to school. Let that go. If she doesn’t want to eat breakfast, then she doesn’t want to eat breakfast. I can let go of all those things.

Janet Lansbury: And you can take it in the car and, instead of that disappointment in her, say, “You know what? We’ll bring it in the car. Tell me if you change your mind.” If you don’t mind her eating in your car, but if you do, don’t do it.

You’re not willing to engage in a power struggle. You’re just not. Not because you’re afraid of it, but you’re just too big for it. You’re way too big for it, both of you. You’re not going to stoop to that with a four-year-old. And that’s what will give her heart so much relief. That she’s not in charge of these things, that she doesn’t have to make all these decisions, that her little antics don’t throw you off your game, you two. That’s the main thing that she’s looking for here, I think.

Parent 1: Yeah. I feel like I have a new approach that’s going to really help the evenings feel. I think you’re right, there’s a sense that, Here comes the bedtime routine . . . How is it going to go tonight? So hopefully I can shift that mindset, because I’m sure she feels that too.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. And if you’re feeling that, this girl’s feeling it for sure. It’s like seeping out of you, that trepidation. And it’s a really typical thing, you’re not unusual, that we go into these things where our child, maybe we’ve had difficulty before and now, “Alright, five more minutes until your bedtime. Okay, it’s time.” Like we’re almost asking for trouble, right?

Parent 1: Right.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Even though of course we don’t really want it, but that’s how it can feel.

I think it’s also wonderful that you also have the connection now that you’ve made between your childhood experience and the tentativeness that you feel. Keep exploring that, maybe writing about it from a place of that feeling, of how it felt. So you’re not writing a story about what happened from this kind of objective, distant place, but you sit down with that feeling of how that felt when your brother was doing that, and you just write from that. Ah, I’m scared, whatever comes from that. That can be a helpful way that I learned from Elisabeth Corey, by the way, who I’ve had on my show. Do you go to therapy or anything like that?

Parent 1: I have at times. I’m not in therapy right this minute, though. Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: Well, just keep in mind that that may need more healing for you to be able to put it in its place and not let it interfere with this important role that you’re taking on.

Parent 1: I think the challenge is actually sometimes more just like when my husband has to help her put her clothes on. I kind of trust myself in those moments, but I think the conflict comes when I’m watching him put her pajamas on. That’s more of when the conflict arises within me, is kind of watching that and probably putting a lens on it that’s more related to what happened to me when I was a kid. He’s just trying to get her pajamas on, and in my mind, I often intervene in those moments. And not just in my mind, I intervene and I tell him to stop because that’s what comes up for me. And so I think figuring out how to allow him to parent in those moments. I mean, I certainly think it impacts me. I think in terms of how it impacts our parenting overall. It’s more in just my intervening in those moments when he’s having to be the confident leader and take those steps that it ends up being a challenge for us.

Janet Lansbury: Well, I would just keep your sense of humor about it if you can. What both of you are doing here, exploring this, is the way that I would recommend. Because it’s like, let’s say you’re building a wooden box and you have this lid and the lid’s not going on. We wouldn’t try to force it, force it, force it on. We would look and see what’s going on here that’s making this not go on. So that’s what we want to do with children, even though obviously they’re not wooden boxes, much more complex than that. But that’s the way we want to be as parents. We want to go from the inside out, helping our child with the issue that they’re having.

In this case, I think overtiredness, way too much power, getting people wound up, and maybe too much of a strict agenda on things that, really, we don’t have the power to force that easily. Like to make someone sit in a bath and enjoy it or to make someone get their clothes on or brush their teeth when they’re holding their mouth shut. So where we don’t have power, we really want to lean into mama/papa bear, loving, loving, loving relationship. And way above her struggles and tests and all the things that happen when she’s not at her best self.

Parent 1: That’s super-helpful. Thank you so much. I feel kind of relieved that I have a plan that feels a lot more doable than I had before. Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: Good. And if she starts screaming for one of you when the other one’s having their time with her, don’t other person come bail her out. Because then that can be that accommodating thing of, I really can’t do this, and you really do need daddy or you really do need mommy right now. It’s better then to just kind of face the music and carry on, knowing that you’re being a hero.

Parent 2: Can I ask a couple follow-up questions?

Janet Lansbury: Yes.

Parent 2: Since we’ve got you on the line, and normally I just have to listen to your podcast and then guess how it applies to our particular circumstance.

Janet Lansbury: Of course.

Parent 2: So yeah, I hear what you’re saying about if she is screaming at my wife that she actually wants me to do bedtime—it happens in both directions—that that’s not her decision to make, and we’re both capable parents and either one of us can do it. We don’t need to acquiesce to that. What about this morning when she was screaming at me that I was sitting in her seat at breakfast and she wanted me to move? I mean, am I acquiescing to some unreasonable demand? I mean, I can go sit somewhere else.

Janet Lansbury: But why would you?

Parent 2: Is that me being flexible? Or am I being too stubborn if I say, “No, I was sitting here already, I’m just going to sit here,” knowing that she is going to scream a lot right next to me as I’m sitting there eating breakfast if I don’t get up and move. I mean, she ended up screaming a lot about other nonsense this morning.

Janet Lansbury: There you go, that’s your answer. She needed to scream about something. I’m really glad you brought this up, because that’s a sign that there are some places where you’re kind of letting her have power that she cannot be comfortable with, and then it’s bleeding over into these difficult situations like bedtime as well. Because when there are things going on in one area, it always makes everything harder, especially the transitional times, which are already the hardest.

It’s an unconscious power play on her part. Yeah, of course you could get up, but for what? Of course you could get her a different color cup that’s right there, but you already brought that one with the water in it. The way that you respond matters, no matter what you do. So you could sit there still and say, “No, I’m going to sit here. You can’t tell me what to do.” Or you could be like, “Well, that’s really interesting. You’re giving us the seating arrangements. I’m pretty comfortable here. This is where I’m going to stay.” With that comfortable, confident attitude, instead of responding as if she’s making a serious request. And then she will scream anyway. And I love that you noticed that in a way. I mean, I’m sorry you noticed that!

Parent 2: It’s hard not to notice.

Janet Lansbury: I know. I’m sorry that happened, I guess I should say. But that tells you right there, she was going to find something to scream about. And by me doing this totally reasonable thing, which is staying where I’m sitting and not jumping up for the four-year-old pointing their finger at me, she gets a chance to.

And she also gets this incredible message that her parents are just not going to fall for that stuff. We’re just not going to take the bait. And she doesn’t have to worry that we’re going to take the bait. Because underneath what she seems like she wants is her wanting us not to do that, her wanting us to not give her all that power, that she can be the boss of all these adults. Because she’s only four and she knows that’s trouble if she’s the boss. Who’s going to take care of her?

Parent 2: Can I ask another follow-up, though?

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. I hope it’s along the same lines, because I love it.

Parent 2: It’s along the same lines. I know I’ve heard you give people advice that when your kid is screaming, if they’re actually screaming in a way that is bothering you, you can tell them that. So part of what I was thinking at breakfast this morning is that of course I can stay in my seat, but I know she’s going to start screaming. And then if she starts screaming at me, I can tolerate that for like a minute or two, but then I’m not going to like it anymore and I’m going to want to leave. And I’ll tell her like, “Oh wow, that noise that you’re making, that’s really loud. That’s actually bothering me, so I’m going to go somewhere else.” And then it’s like she’s gotten the thing that she wanted anyway. So she does have a lot of power, you know? She can scream and I can’t stop her from screaming. And I can white-knuckle it and tolerate it for as long as I can, but I’m still a limited human being. I can only take so much of my kid screaming in my ear before I want to go sit in a quieter room to eat my oatmeal. You know what I mean?

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. So putting your hand over your ear doesn’t help enough, it sounds like.

Parent 2: I guess I could do that in between bites.

Janet Lansbury: As much as possible, we want to try to do the most minimal thing, because that shows that we’re not bothered. And ideally we see this as a kind of ridiculous thing that’s going on here and that we’re not going to play into it. But if that’s really hurting your ears and you can’t take it anymore, I would say, “You know what? I feel like going over here.”

And then, no, she hasn’t gotten what she wants there. Or she has actually, but it’s not what we think she wants. So we think she wants us to get off that chair. But what she wants is to know her leaders are unruffled, she wants to know her leaders can totally handle anything she throws at them. So you not sitting there is not her getting what she wants. But your attitude about eventually moving or not moving is going to give her what she wants, which is an answer: You know what? You can try all these things and you’re not going to blow me off this chair. I may choose to get up, but you don’t have the power to force me. It’s that little subtle adjustment of you owning your power and seeing the ridiculousness of this and the need that’s really behind it, which is, Dad, don’t play into this with me. Don’t let me be this kind of boss-child instead of the little tiny girl that I am. So it’s the way that you do it. Does that make sense?

Parent 2: That does make sense. That makes a lot of sense. And I think that’s really helpful. Thank you.

Janet Lansbury: So making it your idea. “Oh, you know what? I’m going to go over here. I’m going to bring this in the kitchen because I have some things to do,” or whatever. I mean, I guess maybe it’s acting a little bit. But have there ever been other people in your life, like when you were a kid or something, that just were trying so hard to annoy you and bug you and get a rise out of you, and you finally realized, if I just kind of not ignore them, but ignore the bothersomeness of this, they stop.

So ignoring them is different because that’s actually a kind of aggressive response of, I’m just going to ignore you for doing that.

This is, Oh gosh, here she goes. Oh well, I’m just not going to give this thing power. It’s so silly. I’m going to get up because I want to.

Parent 2: Sounds really helpful, and I hear what you’re saying about it kind of being acting, but also just saying the line of dialogue out loud kind of forces you to go along with the scene. So that is good.

Janet Lansbury: It’s acting yourself into believing it, or it’s even better when you just really believe it. When you really see this as not this tremendously annoying child this moment, but this silly, tiny person that is not really asking for you to get off the chair, but asking for you to not be wound up by her.

Parent 2: Yeah, I think that’s really helpful advice. I’ve been using your advice along those lines during bedtimes when she’s just totally overwhelmed, overtired, completely fallen apart, saying out loud, “Oh wow, you’re having a really hard time. I love you. I’m here to help you.” That has really changed my attitude about what’s going on in those moments. And I think sometimes she’s so deep into her tantrum that I don’t know if she’s hearing me at all or, if she’s hearing me, I don’t know if she’s actively processing it at all. But it still helps me.

Janet Lansbury: Good.

Parent 2: And my wife can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think I’ve seen a change in her over time as I’ve shifted that attitude and the words that I’m saying to her in those moments.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Another one you could say to yourself is, This too shall pass. It’s all good. My son always says it’s all good to everything, but she’s venting away. It’s all good.

Parent 1: I don’t think we realized how much of our power we were letting her take. I think this is just really useful for getting a bigger picture outside of my own brain of what’s actually going on, than how I was seeing it. Super helpful. Thanks again.

Janet Lansbury: It’s my pleasure. And that’s the key: that zooming out, having somebody else to talk to about it so you can see the bigger picture. And then when you step away from her, you can see how tiny this person is. Do you ever go out on the street and think, How did she get so small? We thought she was huge in our minds!

You two are doing an incredible job. Kudos to you. All of this self-reflection and self-awareness that you have is really going to continue to inform your relationships with these two people that you’re raising.

Parent 1: We’re lucky that we ran into your materials.

Parent 2: We really are.

Parent 1: I don’t even know. I sometimes think, what would I be doing if I hadn’t run into your stuff online? Who knows! But we are just really grateful that you are around and you’re so good at explaining it in a way that makes it clear and understandable. And providing the language at times. Sometimes “I won’t let you do that” is so helpful. Just those little things, that you just have a gift of putting things succinctly in helpful ways. So thanks for putting that out into the world.

Janet Lansbury: It’s my pleasure. And thank you so much for your kindness and again, for your generosity in being here and sharing with all of us. Bye.

Parent 1: Bye.

Janet Lansbury: And thank you all so much for listening and for your kind support. We can do this.

The post Should We Resort to Using Force? appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “How an Angry Mom, Hating Parenting, Found Immediate Success”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be sharing a note I received from a parent, the subject line, “Immediate Success,” and she details what she did to break out of this pattern that she was in that wasn’t working. She was doing all kinds of things as a parent that she doesn’t believe in, that she didn’t want to do. Feeling angry. She says, “I defaulted to anger and to what I’d seen my parents do.” And then she made a shift, which she talks about. Now her children are telling her they love her and she’s feeling worlds better about their relationship, herself as a parent, and their days. I’m excited to share this note with you and also offer some commentary on why I think what she did is helping.

And the reason I thought this would be a wonderful thing to share today on my podcast is that I’m often offering examples of what to do differently, but to actually hear from a parent what she did differently is, I think, much more powerful and will be much more helpful to you.

So here’s the note I received:

Dear Janet,

First off, I just have to say, wow, thank you. I’m not normally inclined to leave feedback either positive or negative on things. However, I just had to let you know the impact you have had on my 4-year-old, 2-year-old, and 11-month-old, and me this last week. I will never go back to the way it was before.

Here’s the story. I had listened to some of your podcasts and read some of your blogs before my first was born. I remember thinking how great it sounded to parent with this style and wanted to implement it. I did, of course, do things as you and others recommend throughout the beginnings of my daughter’s early life without much effort. Telling her I needed to change her diaper before doing so, giving her a heads up on things to prepare her for transitions, etc., And it was pretty easy going for a while. I had friends comment on how patient I was and how amazing I was as a mother. It felt really good to hear those things because I had no experience with children prior to having one, so I was worried I would be a terrible mother.

Then I got pregnant with my second. My daughter was about 10 months old at the time. Things were still going pretty well, until she was about 16 to 18 months old. She started throwing tantrums and exhibiting behavior that people would call the terrible twos, and I began to worry because she wasn’t even two yet. Why is she having such strong feelings already? I really struggled with this because I have a pretty flat affect and I was the good kid in my family, because I saw with my older sister what happened if you didn’t toe the line. Don’t get me wrong about my parents. My sister was a hellion and I just wanted nothing to do with it. I had a very loving home and my parents are my best friends. And I want that so badly for my children, to have that kind of strong relationship with my husband and I.

Fast forward to the present and the situation that brings me to this email. I now have baby three, which will be turning one next month. And your teachings had all but gone out the window due to the stress of strong emotions from my toddlers, fighting between the two toddlers, my son not being nice to his baby brother and saying that he doesn’t like him. Tantrums, screaming, hitting, throwing, and everything in between. I have spent so much time in the last four years being so much angrier than I ever wanted to be as a mother. I defaulted to that, I defaulted to what I had seen my parents do. I had tried timeouts, spanking, and on a number of occasions yelled to where the crying and screaming that set me over the edge went up to a higher decibel of noise.

I couldn’t handle it anymore. I felt terrible and thought terrible things about the fact I had these three beautiful children, but I hated my life. I was in the military for 15 years. I went to Iraq and Afghanistan four times, lost friends, been blown up, can’t hear very well—and I wanted that life back. That life was easy. Being a mom is hard.

Last week as I was driving home with my children asleep in the car after a visit to my parents’ house that didn’t go very well, I thought, Enough is enough. This isn’t working. By the grace of God, I remembered Unruffled and immediately started devouring the podcasts on the drive home. It all started coming back to me on what to do. So as I got them in the house and put them in their beds asleep, I knew I would give your way a shot, starting fresh in the morning.

It has been a life-changing difference in just one week. Sure, there’s still sibling infighting going on, some mild tantrums here and there, and my son still likes to pick on his baby brother. But everything has just been so much calmer and happier in the house, especially me. I have been happy. The toddlers have been saying “I love you” so many times throughout the day that I know they can feel how much different it is in the house. I’m here for them and I’m on their side now.

The biggest testament to the success of the switch was on Sunday. We go to a traditional Latin Mass Catholic church that is an hour away from our house. Sundays are so hard. I don’t think I’ve been able to pay attention in church since my daughter became mobile, and then it has gone progressively downhill since then. I knew that Sunday was going to be the test to see how much this has helped. It was a miracle. Sure, I still didn’t get to pay attention in church, I was still having to manage the children by giving them snacks, making sure they were staying in the pew, and doing stuff all parents have to do in church to keep the peace. But it wasn’t an absolute fight. I wasn’t angry with anyone. It was just calm direction.

I can’t even describe properly the change that has come to our family without writing a novella to you about the last seven days. Bless you and all that you do to save us parents from ourselves and help us to be the best we can for our children.

So here’s what I wrote back to her. I basically wrote back that I do want the novella! I said:

This news is so wonderful to hear. Thank you, thank you, thank you for taking the time to share with me. I’m wondering if you’d like to share more about what you’re focusing on or doing, what shifts you’ve made specifically that are helping you. But no worries at all if you’re too busy. If you are open to allowing me to share your story (anonymously), it can sometimes help parents a lot to hear how others are using this approach and making positive shifts. Please know that either way, I’m so grateful to you for making my day—or month, rather!

And she wrote back to me that she’d be happy to do that, but not right now, she was too busy. And then eventually she wrote:

Dear Janet,

Sorry for the delay in response. Some of the shifts that I’ve made with my toddlers:

1. Instead of saying things like, “Knock it off,” “Don’t hit so-and-so,” “Don’t take that toy from the baby,” and other such demands, I’ve really worked on rephrasing it to things like, “Hmm, seems you really want that toy. I won’t let you hit so-and-so.” “Wow, seems like you’re really upset.” And it’s really helped me defuse the situation before I get angry.
2. Another example that had just happened this morning with my 11-month-old. I’m guilty of doing whatever it takes to stop babies from crying. That normally means picking them up and holding them, nursing, changing diapers, etc. Mostly picking them up and holding them if I know they don’t have other immediate needs. This morning I was trying to do something in the kitchen and my son was playing with a couple of trucks when all of a sudden he started crying. Normally I would pick him up, but instead I looked at him and said, “I hear you. What is it that you need from me?” I sat down on the floor with him and waited. He crawled over and handed me a truck. I said, “Oh, you didn’t want to be picked up. You wanted me to play with trucks with you. I’ll try to be better about responding to your needs in the future.” We sat on the floor and played trucks for quite a while.
3. Another example this morning with my toddlers. They were scratching each other, leaving really bad scratches, something they had never done before. I tried things like, “It seems you really want to scratch. I can’t let you scratch your brother.” Then time would pass and another scratch would occur. Finally feeling a bit defeated but determined to avoid my old ways, when my four-year-old daughter asked to be on my lap, I talked with her. “It really seems like you want to scratch your brother. I don’t understand what’s going on. Can you maybe tell me about it?” This is where I figured she wouldn’t really have the words to explain anything, but I was open to whatever came next. She said, “Yeah, there’s a lot of snow outside and we’re inside. That is why I’ve been scratching.” My response: “Wow, thank you for telling me. I’m sorry I didn’t understand what was going on earlier. Let’s get all our snow clothes on and go outside and play while the baby’s taking a nap. When he wakes up, we’ll come inside. So let’s be quiet and hurry up and get ready so we can play longer.” Immediately, the shift in attitude was clear and happy again. Phew!

It has been an amazing shift in the household ever since I have adopted this approach. I’m more open and honest with them about stuff too, thinking that maybe they can handle my emotions too. For example, “I need you and your brother to go play in the living room while I finish making dinner. I’m getting really frustrated with you guys leaving toys right here that I end up tripping on.” Sure, there’s probably a better way to go about that, but it’s better I get it out that way than letting my feelings escalate to where I yell at somebody or something.

There have been many instances prior to this switch in approach where my son or daughter would say, “Dear God, make äiti happy. Amen.” Äiti is the Finnish word for “mother,” and it just breaks my heart that these little people are trying to pray away my frustration. Since taking on this approach, they haven’t said that once. Instead, there have been so many more hugs and them telling me they love me.

I know I have a long way to go. There are a lot of times that I’m not sure exactly what I should say in the moment. It will get easier with time, I’m sure. Eternally grateful.

So one thing that seems amazing to me just off the bat is that this parent was able to make a shift so quickly. Because that can be hard to do, right? We get set in our ways, our children get set in theirs, and even if we have an idea of what we might try to do differently, it’s hard to really keep the focus on doing that. So kudos to this parent for so many things, and especially for sharing all of this so that I could share it with you.

And now I want to suggest three things that are definitely all related that I notice that she’s doing differently, that are helping her to make this shift.

First, she’s seeing beyond the behavior. She’s noticing, she’s seeing in. It can be so challenging to see past those icky behaviors our children are showing us, right? We just want to snap back or say, “Stop doing that. What are you doing? Cut it out.” But the problem with that is it keeps us stuck on that level with our children and can create more and more distance between us. And more discomfort for everybody, which means more behaviors like these. When we see beyond, to the cause of the behavior, and consider the why, we get ourselves unstuck from that judging, correcting place that’s on the surface. That’s how we make a difference.

And with this parent, she said, “Instead of saying things like, ‘Knock it off,’ ‘Don’t hit so-and-so,’ ‘Don’t take that toy from the baby,’ and other such demands, I’ve really worked on rephrasing it to things like, ‘Hmm, seems like you really want that toy. I won’t let you hit so-and-so.’ ‘Wow, seems like you’re really upset.’ And it’s helped me to defuse the situation before I get angry.” So she talks about this as rephrasing, which is definitely what she’s doing. But what she’s also really doing is speaking from a place that represents a mind shift in her and in her perception in the way that she’s seeing her child. She’s shifting to a place in what she’s saying to being open to the feelings, to the point of view of the child, and by doing so, dealing with the behavior at the source, at the cause level. And that is the only real way to solve or change any dynamic that’s going on with our children and us.

What happens if we work on making this shift at the perception level of what behavior really signifies and what our role is in stopping the behavior, if we want to look at it that way, or certainly changing the dynamic, that will free us from this need to have to feel like we’re searching for words and rephrasing. Though sometimes it does help to start the way this parent explains that she is—although I think she’s doing more than rephrasing here, I think she is changing her perspective—but when we shift our perspective to even go a little in that direction, the words come to us naturally. So that’s the direction to keep going in. And it’s okay to go from the outside in, with words, but the real change and the most effective change will come when we keep working on that perspective, which is what I talk about all the time in this podcast.

The second response that she’s offering here that’s helpful is actually wanting them to express their feelings, to share those feelings however they can, and acknowledging them. And this is also something you hear me speak about all the time on this podcast. The reason I do so is that it’s countercultural, it’s counterintuitive for us to do this. As she said, “Another example that just happened this morning with my 11-month-old. I’m guilty of doing whatever it takes to stop babies from crying.” So I don’t see this as any reason to feel guilty, but that is a pattern that a lot of us are encouraged to start with babies, that they are somehow this sort of slightly different species or this different stage of life where their crying just needs to be stopped. And all of it is expressing a need for the parent to do something other than listen. And while that is true, a lot of the time with babies, it could be this automatic response that we give. There are times when they really just need to share.

I’ve seen this in my classes. This new person came in the room. I don’t know this person. Another parent coming in the class, let’s say, a new parent that they haven’t been exposed to before. And they’re coming and sitting near me and I feel their energy. Some children are very sensitive to that. Or, Ahh, I’m overstimulated. It’s all too much. Everybody was talking, or we went out to a restaurant or to a market. Babies are very sensitive to that. So there are reasons that they cry other than, I need something right now. And yes, they do need something, but sometimes what they need is just to share that, to discharge it, to unpack it with us.

If we can start seeing babies that way, it will help us to make a seamless transition—or a more seamless transition, at least—to the toddler years, when there are tantrums and meltdowns and whining and all kinds of expressions that children just need to share, without us jumping to fix them. There’s nothing wrong with picking up a baby, for sure, or picking up a child of any age, but as this parent realizes, that’s not always the answer. And having that mentality that we’re supposed to do that can make it harder to adjust and not be this fixer. And the fixer of feelings is going to get worn out with a toddler, for sure. Especially toddlers that are a little dysregulated like these seem to be, with all the transitions in their lives and maybe absorbing the feelings, the anger that the parent has had. That’s normal to do. Children absorb it, then they vent it out in all these different ways. So ideally, they need to be allowed to, right? The feelings, right from the beginning, right from our baby’s birth, the feelings are healing.

Also, often, the feelings are the key to all these behaviors that are going on with our child on the outside, the ones that we want to get mad about, right? I mean, it’s normal to. Those feelings are what’s driving the behavior. And the ability to reason—which young children have, babies have—it often takes a backseat or it doesn’t come along at all when there are feelings. So letting feelings be, welcoming them, rolling out the red carpet. You’ve heard me say all these things. Yes, it’s hard to let children have their feelings. We all want to fix them as soon as possible.

This is especially common, even often advised, with babies. Just pick them up. And one of the problems with that, besides that it’s not encouraging our child to communicate nuances to us, is that we’re perceiving all their crying in a kind of black and white manner, as one-note. And also, again, encourages these reflexive habits in us. It’s harder to try to make a transition than it is to work on perceiving feelings as nuanced communication from our baby’s birth. Wanting to know what they’re saying, being attuned, wanting to understand so that we can respond accurately. This is the beginning of developing an attuned relationship with our children. Acknowledging doesn’t mean giving in to what our child wants in that moment.

And one little note for this parent: I only want to encourage her, but also add that as she gains confidence in the benefit of her children expressing the feelings, how healthy this is even when it sounds really bad to us, she’ll be able to brave the next step. Which is not trying to fix them another way by giving our child exactly what they say they want in that moment if that’s not convenient for us, if that’s not what we want to do. Because that’s not always going to be possible or sustainable. Maybe we don’t want to play with trucks at that moment. That’s valid, and it’s not as positive for us or our child to do things for them just to please them. It’s a quick way to depletion, to resentment, to more frustration. And it’s less practice getting somewhat comfortable (we’re never going to be super comfortable) being in disagreement with our child. Having them be mad at us, disappointed in us, frustrated because of us, or even just frustrated if it isn’t because of us, to allow that to be. We all need practice with that, again, because it’s countercultural, counterintuitive, the hardest thing that we do as parents. But this is really what’s helped her to make the shift.

Now I think she’s going to be ready soon to take it even further to, Oh, I don’t have to please my child after they’ve communicated to me, either. Just that communication and me accepting it and acknowledging it has a bonding effect, is giving my child what they need. They don’t need me to say yes all the time. What they need is for me to be honest, actually, and say yes only if I really feel yes, from a place of genuinely wanting to do it, not yes, because I can please you and I will.

Now the third thing. Again, these are all very interrelated, as you can tell. From this open, accepting, nonjudgmental, undemanding place this parent has found: explore. The example she uses is:

Another example this morning with my toddlers. They were scratching each other, leaving really bad scratches, something they had never done before. I tried things like, “It seems you really want to scratch. I can’t let you scratch your brother.” Then time would pass and another scratch would occur. Finally feeling a bit defeated but determined to avoid my old ways, when my four-year-old daughter asked to be on my lap, I talked with her. “It really seems like you want to scratch your brother. I don’t understand what’s going on. Can you maybe tell me about it?” This is where I figured she wouldn’t really have the words to explain anything, but I was open to whatever came next. She said, “Yeah, there’s a lot of snow outside and we’re inside. That is why I’ve been scratching.”

So from an open, nonjudgmental place, this parent wants to understand. She’s going beyond the behavior, seeing the communication, that there’s something here that’s being said. So this open, accepting, nonjudgmental part is really important because it isn’t going to be helpful, it’s not going to work if we say this differently. Like, “Why are you doing that?,” with judgment. So we have to work on one and two: First one, seeing beyond the behavior, and two, wanting children to express their feelings and point of view, to share them however they can. So those two elements have to be part of us exploring. Or else it’s not exploring, it’s criticizing, shaming, lashing out at. All those things that can be reflexive for us to do, but they don’t help, as this parent has noticed. What she’s doing does help.

I love that she said, “This is where I figured she wouldn’t really have the words to explain anything, but I was open.” She was open. And children surprise us when we’re open to them, when we believe that they probably know more than we think they know. That they probably do understand way more than they can say. And in this case, she was able to express it, too. Beautifully, actually. So that right there is the response, what this parent did.

Here again, I just want to lovingly caution this parent that her relief in making her child happy with the snow, going out and playing in the snow, it’s a little bit part of what she mentioned earlier about doing whatever it takes to stop her babies from crying. I don’t think she should feel guilty about that, but it’s something to look at, because she does that with this outdoor play and with playing with the trucks. So that’s where I recommend she keeps heading in that direction, into normalizing all the strong disappointments that her children need to express in a day.

In times like these, especially as the parent has shifted some things in only a week, there’s going to be some carryover that children need to vent from this change. Even though it’s such a positive change, right? But still, there are feelings, there are feelings about every kind of change. So all the more reason for this parent to trust herself and what she really wants to do. And that the feelings are the healing, and it’s not up to her to stop the crying. Often we will disappoint children in the moment by giving them what they need in the bigger picture, a safe place to vent and to feel accepted. It’s an opportunity, if we look at it that way.

I love how this parent shares her process and the way she frames it, that she’s starting with changing the words. At the same time, it really does seem that rephrasing is helping her to understand and feel this new perspective. And to answer what she says at the end. “I know I have a long way to go. There are a lot of times that I’m not sure exactly what I should say in the moment. It will get easier with time, I’m sure.” I want to say yes, it will get easier. And she will know what to say if she keeps practicing wearing this lens with those three elements, this relationship lens. It’s a relationship between two whole people who both have needs and wants, one of whom is much newer to the world and more open and easily overwhelmed by their emotions and expresses them impulsively. So these are not two people on an even plane in terms of ability and maturity, far from it. And that’s why they need us so much to see them, to help them express all their feelings in safe ways. To show them, through these opportunities, what an unconditionally loving, respectful relationship between two people with sometimes opposing wants looks like. And it doesn’t unfortunately look like pleasing our child at our own expense. We matter too. Our child needs us to, even when we’re displeasing them.

I promise this parent and everyone listening that with practice, this will become our lens and guide us throughout our children’s lives. Once it sticks, we never lose it. Sure, we might get sidetracked by our own feelings and stress levels and priorities for a while, but we can always readily find our way back. We can do this.

And I have one more thing to share with you. If you’re sometimes confused or aggravated by your toddler’s behavior and you find yourself pleading, manipulating, or bribing, threatening or punishing your child. It doesn’t feel good, right? Maybe you end up yelling and then feeling guilty or just breaking down in frustration. I get it. If you want to learn how to remain more calm and present, not faking it, but feeling it, even during your child’s most difficult behaviors, the No Bad Kids Master Course is for you. If you’re exhausted by all the parenting tips and tricks and quick fixes, and you want a more fulfilling, effective way to relate to your child, this course is definitely for you. And if you want to build a lifelong bond with your child based on love and mutual respect, if you want to learn to really enjoy and take pride in your parenting, let’s go. I promise you, we can do this. Go to nobadkidscourse.com.

The post How an Angry Mom, Hating Parenting, Found “Immediate Success” appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

(Learn more about Janet’s “No Bad Kids Master Course” at: NoBadKidsCourse.com)

Transcript of “Angry Outbursts, Screaming, and Mean Words”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be responding to two questions I’ve received from different parents. There are a lot of similarities in these issues: These are both four-and-a-half to five-year-olds, intense children, those kind of vibrant, strong, intense personalities, and they both seem to be angry, screaming, saying unkind things to their parents and siblings. And these families express that they’re feeling desperate, that they’re doing something wrong, this isn’t getting better. What can they do?

I’ve got to admit, I feel a little humbled in responding to these dynamics expressed in emails, because it’s complicated, right? And how can I really know what’s going on there? I can only do my best based on the many other families I’ve worked with and what I know about child development and behavior, what it means, what we can do to make things better for ourselves and for our children. And so I’m going to do my best. Just having this feeling today like, Wow, this is a lot to try to take on. I’m game, though.

Here’s the first question:

Dear Janet,

I don’t know what I expected motherhood to be, but it’s a million times more challenging than I would’ve dreamed. I have two beautiful daughters. One is turning five tomorrow and one is two-and-a-half. They’re both very spirited, fierce, vibrant souls. I’m writing today in regards to my oldest. I can’t help but cry as I type this because I’m feeling so very lost and confused by this current season we are in—and I hope it’s just a season.

I consider myself a pretty aware and rational person, and I’ve tried to adopt your approach through your book No Bad Kids. Recently, my five-year-old has become extremely mean and angry towards me, my husband, and my youngest. She can also be super sweet, but this recent shift has me at a loss. We do our best to remain calm, but she’s calling us names, a lot of “meanest mama, stupid, I don’t love you,” etc. But the tone and attitude behind it feels deeply angry. She seems like she’s very intentionally trying to be hurtful. I don’t understand where it could be coming from. It seems mostly triggered by her being told no and not getting what she wants.

I listened to a recent podcast you did about being the sun and rising above difficult behavior, but I’m equally struggling because it doesn’t seem like she should be able to get away with treating us and her sister this way. Perhaps that is some of my childhood being triggered by it, as you’ve mentioned. Is there a way to approach and handle this aside from only telling her it’s not okay to talk to people in that way? We don’t discipline her or give her timeouts, but I feel there has to be something I’m missing.

I’m so terrified of parenting the wrong way. I hope I’m not letting too much go. At this stage, I’m also terrified of what she’ll be like at another five to 10 years from now if this type of anger and hurtful behavior is already surfacing at four to five years old. I’m trying my very best not to take it personally, but it does make me feel incredibly depressed. There’s a fair amount of consistent screaming in our house when I feel they should be happier. They have an extremely loving home. Both parents are pretty patient most of the time. Maybe my expectations for their behavior are too high. Her teacher says she’s amazing and we don’t receive any reports from school, so I know she’s only this way with us.

I’m desperate to learn any tips or approaches for this period. Lately I’ve been trying to focus on remaining calm, making light of things, but I’m shocked at the level she’s taking things.

Thank you so much for your time and guidance.

So I did write back to this parent with a couple of questions. My first question to her was, “Do you have a sense of what might have caused this shift? Any thoughts about what’s going on with her and what might’ve changed recently?”

She said:

When reflecting on the past few months, there are a couple of things I’d consider big events. First, she is no longer napping Monday through Friday in her preschool since she’ll start kindergarten next year. She does typically nap at home on Saturday and Sunday. When she moved up to this class in September, we saw an immediate change in her behavior upon pickup. Evenings were, and still often are, very difficult. She tends to immediately break down and go into full-on screaming tantrums over small things like being asked to wash her hands. I attribute this to no nap.

Secondly, I potty-trained her sister the first week of October. That caused her sister to become much more attached to me than she already was. My husband and I used to take turns with bedtime, switching every other night. But I was putting her sister to bed every night until this past week, when we made it a point to reinstate the every-other-night routine. I was concerned my older one would feel I was choosing her sister over her.

They are both very ONLY MAMA. Her sister also has very intense tantrums involving a lot of screaming, which I know can be hard on the older one at times. I find them more forgivable because she is two, versus my older one who will be five in mere hours. Other than these two events, nothing else has changed in her routine.

And then I asked her, “Can you tell me a little more about how you’ve been handling responding to her behavior? Examples?”

She wrote back:

Honestly, until this past week, I would break more. After listening to your podcast about not becoming triggered, making light, etc., it really resonated with me and I’ve made a point to try my very best to use this approach. But again, it’s only been a few days. It’s actually a huge learning and growth opportunity for me personally. I realized this while reflecting upon it in my own therapy session.

Some examples may include yelling once being pushed to a certain point, saying things like, “Why are you acting this way? This is not okay.” If she was fully screaming and becoming physical, one of us may take her to her room and stay with her in it while she screams. I’ve gotten very emotional, cried in front of her. If I have ever yelled at her or behaved in a way I know is not okay, I always apologize, every time. She has also apologized to me as well, so I know she’s hopefully seeing the repair aspect.

My husband and I are so drained by her behavior. I’m praying I’ll be able to continue this steady “rise above” approach and hopefully in time see a shift back to my sweet little girl. I know she’s in there, but lately there are times I feel like I don’t know who she is anymore. Maybe that’s the evolution of children and parenting.

Thanks a million.

Okay, just to respond to this part first. “I know she’s in there.” Yes, she’s absolutely in there, that sweet little girl is in there. And that’s a really important idea to hold onto throughout all of this. In fact, because our perceptions are so important, our perceptions of behavior and our child and what they should be doing now and what’s going on with them and what’s our role in discipline, just responding to their behavior—all of those are dictated by our perceptions. And that’s why I focus so much on that. Because our perceptions of any situation decide how we feel.

I would never ask a parent or expect a parent or expect myself to change how I feel and just decide, I’m not going to feel upset by this behavior. I’m not going to feel worried about this behavior, or angry at my child for acting like this. That’s an impossible thing for us to do. But what we can do, and what I recommend strongly, is working on our perceptions of them. Which means knowing that that sweet child, with all the things we love about them, that sweet little baby that we gave birth to, is in there. That’s who they are. This other stuff that’s going on is a shell that they’re kind of trapped in or they keep falling into being trapped in. All these unpleasant things are not the actual essence of our child.

And something that can really help across the board—this is something that I did for myself that really helped me—is practicing in your mind. So it’s not just in the situation with your child, where it’s so easy to get triggered into taking things personally. But practicing in between times as much as we can, maybe when we’re just alone having a moment or having our own thoughts. I know we don’t get many of those as parents of young children! But when we do, seeing a little movie in our minds of this behavior that we’re seeing, this ugly, unattractive, maybe scary to us behavior, seeing beyond that to that child that’s in there. That vulnerable, immature, probably scared child behaving like this. Because, really, most of the behaviors that they have, the angry behaviors, they boil down to hurt, fear, or some other discomfort.

So practice seeing that behavior that we don’t like and then seeing beyond it. As if we had a special camera that could take away those layers and see what’s inside, like an X-ray. Seeing that sweet heart of our child, all those loving ways that they’ve been with us, that vulnerable child. That’s who’s there, that’s who we need to try to hold in the front of our minds. Because that’s the child that we can respond to in a manner that really does heal their behavior and end it, making our lives easier. That’s the child we can find our way to empathy with when they’re acting horribly. That’s the child that we want to bring forth, obviously. So focus on the person in there that you want to see. Practice that. That’s the key to, if we want to call it being unruffled, a calmer, happier, more capable parent, even when you’re going through these tough spots.

I also want to agree with this parent that she is in a season. This is a season. And there are a lot of reasons here for her child to be dysregulated and off. Switching to a different class where you suddenly don’t have that same routine and you’re not getting your nap. And the fact that this child naps on the weekends, wow, that’s a big sign that she still needs naps. Children need them especially when they’re in challenging situations like a preschool setting or a daycare setting. That drains even more of their energy than being at home on the weekend. So if she’s sleeping on Saturdays and Sundays, imagine how much she actually still needs that sleep during the week.

But I’m not suggesting that this parent change the school situation, just that she understand this incredible tiredness that her child is coming home with. That will help this parent expect what she’s getting, which is an intense child who’s totally exhausted. It’s not going to be a pretty sight, it’s not going to be great behavior. She can barely function.

Therefore, our response is to just try to get her from point A to point B, allow her to explode all the way, and not take it personally, not be offended by it. Not feel like there’s something wrong that we’re doing here or that there’s something bad about our child that is going to show up. As this parent said, “I’m terrified of what she’ll be like in another five to 10 years with this type of anger if it’s already surfacing at four to five years old.” Well, there will be less of it when she’s older because she won’t need the same kind of sleep that she needs at this age. She’ll be a little better able to self-regulate. Especially if her parent keeps in this direction she’s going, which is seeing that little girl that’s inside, still there, totally exhausted, can barely function, and needs her parent to understand that and just try to help get her through as she slowly, gradually adjusts to this sleep schedule.

And it sounds like this family has two intense daughters, so that makes it doubly hard, right? But that is the way that children this age show their tiredness. They blow up, they explode, they say unkind things. And it can seem like, as this parent said, “She seems like she’s very intentionally trying to be hurtful.” So that’s where we are mistaking dysregulation and exhaustion for intentional mean behavior. It may come off like that, but that’s not the intention. The intention isn’t really to hurt others, it’s to share her own discomfort. And maybe she has felt judged for her behavior. That would be normal for us to do, right, as parents? So that just creates more of the sense of, I’m alone, it hurts, it’s scary. I’m being annoying. She’s been paying more attention to my younger sister. My mother’s annoyed with me. But I’m not being annoying because I want to or I want to hurt her. I’m being annoying because I’m overwhelmed.

And this parent is worried. “I’m so terrified I’m parenting the wrong way. I hope I’m not letting too much go.” I don’t think she’s letting too much go, but I know it feels like that when her perceptions are still the way it’s easy to see for us as parents, which is reasonably. Why is she acting like this? She’s intentionally trying to be hurtful. She’s treating her sister this way. She shouldn’t get away with it. She thinks it’s okay to talk to people this way. In truth, she doesn’t believe it’s okay to do any of these things. She needs us to help her stop, which isn’t usually telling her to stop. It’s usually letting it go, commenting on it a little bit like, “Wow, those are hurtful words you’re saying. You’re really upset. Seems like you didn’t want your sister to do that.” And acknowledging separately the sister’s feelings: “She’s saying hurtful things to you, you don’t like that. Yeah.” So we could acknowledge that they’re hurtful words, but not trying to correct impulsive behavior. Because what that does is it tends to put a wedge between us and make it harder. Harder for our child, therefore more of the behavior, and harder for us to connect with them. It creates that distance.

And the interesting thing, both of these notes from parents have exhausted daughters. Exhausted. And I just remember—I mean it seemed like it only just changed a few years ago, and my children are all adults now—that this tiredness thing, it gets away from us so easily. Because children are just so much more prone to exhaustion and dysregulation from that, to the point where they cannot function. I remember about a year ago, I got an interesting note from a parent. I don’t think I was able to respond, but she was saying how appalled she was that it was her daughter’s birthday and I think her daughter was five or six. And they’d had this amazing party, it had all gone really, really well, with all her friends and neighbors. And then the next day she thought, Wow, I’m going to give my kids a treat and take her and her brother over to their favorite place, which was kind of a parkour setting, I think, as I remember. And this parent couldn’t believe it, that they behaved appallingly. And I can’t remember the details, but they were rude to her, they were mean to her. And here she was bending over backwards after she’d thrown this birthday party. Now she’s giving them this other incredible treat. She was so offended by their behavior.

Understandably, right? Because when we’re on the inside, it’s really hard to see. But from my outside view I could say, Well, that makes sense. Because how exhausting was it for these children, especially the child whose birthday it was, to have a birthday party that went really, really well. So it’s not only negatives, like hard changes that kids make, that tire them out. It’s these really positive experiences of excitement, of pleasure, stimulation. They’re down for several days after that usually. And that’s important to know as we’re coming into the holidays. It’s a time for exhaustion and it will get away from us if we don’t keep reminding ourselves of how different children are in this way and their needs, how much more sensitive they are.

So yes, I believe this parent that they have an extremely loving home, that they’re patient most of the time. But the other thing she said is that she does blow up sometimes. And that’s nothing to feel ashamed of, or that we’re doing something wrong. It happens. The thing about it, though, is that children will, if they sense that that’s there, they can keep unconsciously kind of pressing us towards it. Because they can sense something building in us that’s uncomfortable, that’s making them feel uncomfortable and kind of anxious. And oftentimes children with this type of temperament, they can’t help but push us beyond our limit because they know that’s possible. I don’t know, it’s a hard one to explain, but it’s a very common thing that children do.

So what that means is that if we have exploded, then our child will be venting that with their own explosions. Maybe a couple days later, but they absorb it and then they discharge it. So in a sense, every time that we lose it, we’re kind of adding more times that our child’s going to be screaming as well. That’s just something to know. That’s us being reasonable about ourselves and the situation, even though it’s an unreasonable situation from our child’s point of view. They are not in a place of reason. But we can be and we can objectively say to ourselves, Okay, well, I scream sometimes so it makes sense that they’re reflecting that back. They’re getting that out of their bodies. That’s a good thing.

So, getting to this parent’s question: “Is there a way to approach and handle this aside from only telling her it’s not okay to talk to people in that way?” The way to approach is working on practicing our perception, seeing that child inside. And when she does say things, we don’t want to ignore it, that’s not natural, right? But we want to respond to it from a place of understanding that it’s her lashing out, sharing her snarls and her hurts with the people she’s safest with.

Another interesting thing is, in both cases, the children are doing great at school, no problems there. So this is the dynamic that we want. It should relieve us even more that this is okay, this is a season, this will pass. I can help it pass through my perceptions and my perceptions will guide my response. As an example: Yikes, alright, I’m picking her up from school. It could be very rough. There’ll be lots of explosions. That’s okay, I can handle this. I’m not going to take any of it personally because I’m expecting it. She’s going through something. And this will pass, this will get better. It’s not a bad sign about me, my parenting, or about my child and their future.

Not only can we get through this, but we can get through this with a closer connection instead of getting through this and creating more distance between us. And that’s what we all want, right? That closer connection. That’s very, very possible. Even if we make a bunch of errors and yell and do all of that, we can still end up in that place of closer connection if we keep practicing our perceptions. Which means letting go of the fear. Everything’s going to be fine with this family. I believe her that they have this incredibly loving home.

And she says, “Maybe my expectations for their behavior are too high.” It’s not necessarily even too high, but it’s different. We can’t expect reasonable behavior from children dealing with these dysregulating things like development, siblings, changes at school, and, number one, tiredness.

She says, “Lately I’ve been trying to focus on remaining calm, making light of things, but I’m shocked at the level she’s taking things.” So, focusing on remaining calm and making light of things. If that’s what our focus is, we’re not addressing ourselves from the inside out. That’s what we do when we practice the perception and then we actually feel calmer about this behavior, expecting it. For this child, in this situation, this makes sense. So I can remain calm. I’m seeing through to that child inside. I know the rest of this is just shell and things that are happening on the surface. That’s not her. And making light of things. Yes, I can treat things lightly, but honestly, like her words to me or her behaviors or the screaming, if I am expecting this. And maybe my partner and I talk about it, Oh, okay, we got to go pick her up. Are you ready? Okay, we can do this. We high-five and yeah, now we can approach it lightly. And from there we won’t feel like we’re trying to be something. We’ll just be being honest.

That’s what this work is about. Because this parents says, “I’m shocked at the level she’s taking things.” But that’s the thing, she’s not taking things to this level, her shell person is doing that. It’s just all blast on the outside, it’s not deep, intense feelings on the inside. If this were an adult acting this way, yes, maybe this would be an indication of intense anger. But with children at these ages, everything feels more intense and then the situation and the tiredness only heightens it. So when she says angry words, when she says, “meanest mama, stupid,” I wouldn’t say, “It’s not okay to talk to people that way.” I would say, “Ouch. Oh, you don’t love me right now. That hurts. I still love you and I want to know more about that, even. How you’re just not liking me right now.” It’s safe. And then with the screaming, just nod your head. Yeah, wow, whew. Yeah, that’s strong stuff. You’re not making fun of it. We’re not trying to make light of it, but we’re also not just ignoring it like it’s not there. Because then children do feel alone in that way, that they’re in this shell and they can’t be reached and we’re not going to try. So, respond. But just from that place of getting it.

And the names, she’s not trying to hurt. She’s doing this really immature way of sharing her hurt that we can see through. It’s kind of sad and silly, right? And this parent’s saying she and her husband are so drained by the behavior because they’re taking it personally. They’re taking it literally. They’re seeing it as worrisome. It’s that concern and that worry that’s going to drain us, and we don’t want that to happen because we need every bit of energy we have as parents. Perception will prevent us from taking things in in a way that drains us.

Here’s another question:

I write in desperation and heartbreak. I’m lucky enough to be the mother of three perfect children, a four-and-a-half-year-old, a two-year-old, and a nine-month-old. Unsurprisingly, it is the oldest that I’m writing about.

She’s a wonderfully funny and intelligent little girl, but her behavior is becoming hard to bear. Overall, she still seems to be struggling a lot emotionally with the transitions she’s had to face, which manifests as abject screaming and rage coupled with sadness.

After school pickup, the pattern of behavior is the same. As soon as we have left and the tiniest thing is not right, the screaming and shouting begins. Everything is catastrophic. This continues at home and during bedtime. The shouting is either indiscriminate or directed at me or her little sister. It is so loud sometimes that the baby becomes distressed and starts crying and I have to move her out of the room. Mornings are also particularly bad, screaming-wise.

On paper, the problems are obvious. She has two siblings in two years, started school, and we have just moved house. She clearly has a lot of anger and frustration with us she still has to process. But the main reason I’m contacting you is that there has not been any improvement in the last two years, despite all of our efforts. It is now becoming mentally debilitating to be screamed at every day, and I have started to lose my patience. She has also started to say worrying things like, “I’m not going to be your children anymore” through her tears.

This morning, for example, she climbed into her carseat and there was something on her seat, so she screamed as loud as possible. Both myself and my husband shouted and told her to wait and ask for help. “There’s no need for screaming!” I shouted. (This irony is not lost on me.) “Can you wait and ask Daddy for help? Have you ever known Daddy not to help you?” I continued. She stopped immediately and shook her head and then waited for my husband to sort out her carseat. We then proceeded to school in silence and we didn’t say goodbye. She will carry this with her all day now, shouted at by mommy and daddy and no goodbye kiss. Not great prep for a four-year-old to navigate the rest of her day, whatever it may throw at her, without us by her side for reassurance and guidance. I cried all the way home and while feeding our baby. I’m failing as a person and as a mother.

And as I’ve said, the main sticking point is that there’s been no improvement. I’ve read every book and podcast by you and Tina Payne Bryson, in addition to others, such as Siblings Without Rivalry. We have patiently implemented these strategies, such as allowing and acknowledging the feelings, including accepting her when she says that she wants her sister to go away and that she doesn’t like her. We have worked a lot on our authenticity in this area. We reinforce the idea that it’s okay to cry and be angry. We draw the line at screaming full-force in either of her siblings’ faces. In these situations, we move her away and, when she’s calmer, acknowledge her feelings, but explain it’s not okay to be that loud so close to the others. We carve out one-on-one time whenever possible, read stories, and tuck her in every night. Cuddle, tell her how much we love her all the time. As we have lost our patience more frequently, we do always make a point of apologizing unreservedly and repairing.

I’m at a loss as to what to do next. This situation is untenable for everyone and I now worry about our younger children living with frequent screaming. She frequently shouts and says unkind things to her sister, and as much as I try not to see her as a victim, it is hard not to worry about the effect it has on her emerging confidence.

It is also important to note at this point that I think she’s often crippled with tiredness. This has been an ongoing theme for a long time and we’ve tried to tackle it with consistent early bedtimes, insisting on lunchtime sleeps at weekends, quiet times, screen time limited, and reducing extracurricular activities, but it remains a factor. I’m currently on maternity leave and so I’m around for her as much as possible when she’s not at school. My husband is incredibly loving and supportive to all of us and diligently adopts the various strategies suggested by yourself and other experts you have suggested. He also works from home a lot, so is there to help out when needed, including all bedtimes.

We would be so grateful for your take on all of this. I sometimes feel that in our quest for healthy mental wellbeing and emotional intelligence, our desire to make expression of emotions okay has gone too far and she has missed the opportunity to start to learn to control her behavior. If you have any time at all, please would you help us to walk the fine line between emotional expression and age-appropriate self-control?

Okay, so I also reached out to this parent to ask for some examples and here’s what she shared:

Thank you for replying. We’ve been thinking a lot about the most helpful examples to explain. Like I’ve said, tiredness plays a huge part in her behavior and always has, which probably explains why the screaming often, but not exclusively, occurs at the beginning and end of the day. But I don’t believe it is the whole story, and she clearly has things she needs to process.

Example one: On the way home from school in the car the other day, my oldest was holding a toy which she dropped on the floor and therefore couldn’t reach from her carseat. All three children were in the back and she immediately started screaming and then kicked the back of the seats full-force. As we were on a quiet road, I stopped the car briefly, turned around, and said, “Oh, you dropped something. It’s annoying when that happens. We’ll look for it when we get out of the car.” As always, trying to keep my tone even and genuine. She stopped screaming but continued to cry and whine until we were home.

It usually helps her mood after she has had an outburst, especially if I sit there and nod and offer her a cuddle, like she does have things to release. However, the frequency and ferociousness of the outbursts makes me think we need to help her deal with her feelings in a more refined way.

A slightly different reaction she may have is shouting threats, such as when the other night she asked me to help her with a game she was playing, putting pieces into the right holes. I put one piece into the wrong place and this frustrated her endlessly. “Mommy, I’m not your best friend anymore and I’m sending you to jail!” she screamed. This is a frequent threat leveled at myself and her little sister if something is not right. I let this one go and went back to whatever I was doing. She continued her game on her own.

This parent talked about their play together:

She’s always very dominant with her sister as well. When they do play together, I hear, “Do this, do that. No, no, no, not like that. Give me that thing. Go over here,” etc. And her sister will diligently follow or get bored and wander off. Again, I don’t know when to step in. I fear if she gets used to playing this way, her peers will not be as forgiving as her sister.

And then she gives one more example:

The following example demonstrates a slightly different, less favorable approach I have used more and more in the last couple of weeks, probably due to feeling more worn down. In the car on the way home from school yesterday, she again dropped something, which immediately elicited a screaming response. I said in an even tone, “I don’t want to hear any more screaming now.” She did adjust her volume somewhat and continued to moan in a more measured way. On arriving home, she entered the house first and then immediately ran back screaming because she couldn’t find something. While taking my shoes off, I again said, not in an angry voice, but probably stern, “What have I said about screaming? Tell me what you want in your normal voice.” She then did talk normally, and then I then helped her.

A few minutes later in the kitchen, she seemed happily walking around in a circle, singing a tune and playing with a toy. I couldn’t help but wonder on observing her that at this point she didn’t seem too bothered that instead of always acknowledging her frustration, I had simply directed her to a better behavior. She didn’t seem emotionally stifled, just a normal child playing while waiting for dinner.

I’ve also asked my husband to separately give his take on things, and this is his reply: Often when my daughter gets home after school, she can appear very tired. When in the bath she can scream and shout if her sister takes something she is holding or wants to play with. I try not to always take the item away from her sister and return it, but instead acknowledge that it can be frustrating when you’re playing with something and it goes. When time allows, I take her out of the bath and sit and give her a cuddle and try to ask her how she feels. “Were you upset because your sister took your toy? I understand. That can be frustrating.” After a moment, she’s calm. But often the bathtime/bedtime routine for three kids continues in a busy manner, not allowing for any time of prolonged calm.

And then another example, he says:

I often get up and make the kids breakfast, and our oldest can be very demanding and wanting to make breakfast, to the point of if I have gotten a bowl out already, she can complain and, in rare occasions, shout/scream because she wanted to do it. I allow her to make the breakfast when I can and guide her. But if she’s at the point of being too upset to actually complete the activity, I step in and gently but assertively take over while saying something to the effect of, “I can see you’re telling me you’re tired and need some help.” Sometimes this is fine and she sits in her chair and carries on with her breakfast. But other times it may just make her more upset because she didn’t get to complete the activity.

And this parent says at the end:

We have not had any negative reports of behavior from her previous nursery or her new school. And we have inquired often.

Right. So, as you can maybe hear in this note, there’s a lot of similarities to the other situation, but these parents, they seem to have been working at this a lot longer and trying to do the right thing. Which they are doing. Again, though, the answer here, well, it’s twofold.

The answer is in our perceptions, which means understanding the why. That’s part of our perceptions. And it sounds like these parents are not quite a hundred percent there, and I want to encourage them, just as with this other family, to even practice this a bit more and believe in this a bit more. For example, when this parent says, “She comes out of school okay, gets in the car, waits for something to not be right, and then screams.” So it’s just this really subtle little wrinkle in the way this parent is seeing, this idea that her daughter is consciously waiting for something to go wrong. This parent says the screaming eclipses things. Well, it’s this tiredness that’s eclipsing everything. And I would try to understand that tiredness is really the trigger for these other things.

As this parent says, there’s been all these transitions—a new home, two siblings in two years. This is big stuff. So the why is pretty understandable. Tiredness, which makes everything harder. Transitions, which are very, very challenging for young children and often at the source of their dysregulated behavior. Sibling issues, one of the hardest transitions for children to face and very hard for these parents as well, juggling the three children, the new baby. So it’s understandable that they don’t have a lot of bandwidth to try to empathize with their daughter and try, as they say, so hard to be even in their tone and to be authentic. What I want to encourage is they consider this work on perceptions instead of working on their tone and being authentic. Because this is the way to be authentic and have the tone. Maybe not all of the time for sure, especially when you’ve got three little ones and a new baby. But more often than not—and children don’t need it to be all the time, they just need it to be a little more than half the time for them to start to be calmer and know that we are on their side.

The way for them to feel that is for us to be on their side because we’re seeing past this shell, this screaming person that just goes off at the drop of a hat, after school especially and in the morning. Sounds like she’s not a morning person, I can relate to that. Tired in the morning, tired after school, new baby, another sibling that’s two that she probably still feels a lot of rivalry with. It’s all par for the course. And it’s very, very challenging for us to keep holding open that perception of the child behind the shell, the hurting that causes that, the hurting that causes that screaming, the feeling that this child has that she’s a minefield, just so easily touched off. It’s tough, right?

And I find it so interesting, the difference this parent felt with the third example that she gave. I believe the reason that seemed to be more effective and help her child to move through it was that this parent was actually authentic then. Which I’m wondering if she really wasn’t—again, this is not something I can know just from reading these thoughts the parent shared with me—but I have the sense that in these previous examples. Well, there’s the one where the parents were both shouting. And so that goes back to that other message I was giving to the previous parent. That just adds more to what our child has to discharge from us. And again, it’s okay. We forgive ourselves and we just know, Okay, we’ve added a few more screams because we’ve lost it today. Nothing wrong with us for doing that, but that’s going to be the result. So okay, now we understand this is going to happen and we can expect it.

But this way that this parent describes responding to her daughter, she says her daughter was holding a toy that she dropped on the floor and therefore couldn’t reach from her carseat. And that “all three children were in the back and she immediately started screaming and then kicked the back of the seats full-force. As we were on a quiet road, I stopped the car briefly, turned around, and said, ‘Oh, you dropped something. It’s annoying when that happens. We’ll look for it when we can get out of the car.’ As always, trying to keep my tone even and genuine.” So besides this being a lot of work for the parent to try to keep her tone a certain way, I would consider that, from her child’s point of view, there’s a real distancing effect of her parent not saying, “Ouch, that hurts when you kick me like that. Don’t do that. And you want your toy. I get that.” Something that’s, I don’t know the way this parent talks or relates to her, but that sounds real, that sounds authentic.

And we’ll say those things when we really are in that frame of mind, with our perceptions in order, or when we’ve practiced them. That’s the kind of thing that we might say, because we’re not trying to say the right words, we’re not trying to get the right tone. And that’s what my whole podcast is about trying to help parents with: getting to be authentically unruffled with your child, getting to be your authentic self, the freedom of that, the comfort in that. And seeing how that works. When we’re not threatened by her kicking the back of our seat, but we’re annoyed by it. Ouch. That we don’t like that. We understand why you’re doing this, but we’re not going to act as if it didn’t happen.

So when this parent says that she thought it almost worked better when she said, “I don’t want to hear any more screaming now. Tell me what you want in your normal voice, please.” It feels to me, putting myself in that child’s shoes, that now she’s feeling responded to by her parent saying what she actually feels. And that is comforting for a child. And as children get beyond two and three and they’ve absorbed all kinds of language around feelings at that point that we’ve offered each time, asking them questions, “Are you feeling frustrated?” So we’re not assuming, but we’re asking and we’re bringing those words up. We don’t need to keep saying a lot of words to an older child. If we’re really authentically in that relationship with them, we can say, “Oh, oh no, it fell. Oh, you hate when that happens.” We don’t have to go through a whole explanation about what’s going on.

I’m not saying this parent is doing this, but maybe they’re saying more words than they need to. And they’re saying it from a place of trying so hard to do the right thing, which I really appreciate and will take these parents far because that intention is really all that matters to being the best kind of parent. And these parents are both very intentional in this work that they’re doing. I just want to help try to make it easier for them and clearer for them.

The bossy behavior with her sister totally makes sense. And it’s fine, as long as she’s not hurting her sister. Children learn to stick up for themselves or move away, like this two-year-old is doing. And that’s more helpful to them than a parent defending them or getting involved in it. Because what the parent getting involved in it does is tell that younger child, I don’t think you can handle this situation with your sibling. Now, if they’re getting verbally abused or physically abused, obviously we would stop it at that point. Say, “Oh, I’ve got to stop you there. You could say that to me, I get why you need to say those things sometimes. But not to your sister.” But still knowing that it’s going to happen. And we’ve made it clear to the younger sister and the older one that that’s not acceptable and we don’t believe it’s true.

The description of the dad’s responses, it sounds like—and I don’t know, again, I could be imagining this, but I sense that he’s a little more comfortable with the behavior than the mom is. Which makes sense, she’s dealing with three children all day. But that’s where we want to get to. We see through this, we see beyond this. No, we’re not going to jump to get you something when you scream at us. That’s where we have our boundaries. We’re taking care of ourselves in this relationship. But we know that, again, this is a season and this will pass. And what we want to do is keep being connected to each other.

Just to go over some of the tips I want to give both of these parents:

Perceptions. Practice those movies in your mind. Seeing beyond, seeing the child inside the shell, the shell behavior.

The why. Why the shell? In both these cases, there are a lot of reasons. And even if you can’t figure out the reason with your child, know that there is a reason and the reason is not that you’re a terrible parent, that you’re doing something wrong, or that they are a doomed child in some way. And if you’re overwhelmed and you feel like you really need more assistance, talk to a professional, in your area ideally. Someone that can come and be with you in person and help you that way.

Tiredness. Boom, the main reason that children go off and behave in ways that we don’t want them to. Too tired. We often don’t see it coming. These are all under the heading of why. Which our perceptions will help us to focus on and react from. React from their why so that we can empathize.

Transitions. Siblings, getting up in the morning, coming home from school, bathtime, all of those are transitions. And the evening transitions, the after-school transitions tend to be the hardest. That’s why I did a podcast called End of the Day Crazies with Kids. It happens, even without any other element happening in a child’s life.

And then I would say, parents getting touched off. That’s true in both of these situations. Parents getting touched off to worry, to get offended. And it can happen from our own childhood experiences, very common. It also happens because we are more reasonable people as adults, and we are less tired people as adults usually. Well, maybe the one with three kids is more tired than most of us, but compared to a child, we are less sensitive around those things and we have a whole lot more self control. But then when we do get touched off, that adds more discomfort to our child and therefore we’re going to see more of the uncomfortable behavior. That tends to be the cycle that we get caught up in with children when things are going in the way that these parents say that they’re going. We can stop this cycle by, even just some of the time, working on our perceptions and calming ourselves that way. Putting these behaviors in their place in our minds and hearts, seeing them for what they are: immature, overwhelmed expressions of hurt. Yeah, they can look really angry, but they usually boil down to fear and hurt and tiredness. And none of these are things that we can’t handle, if we believe in ourselves.

I believe in you, and we can do this.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting, you can get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and apple.com.

The post Angry Outbursts, Screaming, and Hurtful Words appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

(Learn more about Janet’s “No Bad Kids Master Course” at: NoBadKidsCourse.com)

Transcript of “Our Strong-Willed Child Is Running the Show”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

A parent reached out to me via email with concern about her child, who’s seven years old. And apparently it feels like he’s running the show, according to this parent. She describes him as strong-willed and she says that she and her husband are utterly frustrated and exhausted. Children with this type of temperament—and there’s a range, it’s not like you’re either strong-willed or you’re not—I have to say, I have a special fondness for these types of children. I have one, I’ve worked with many. So what do we do when our child seems to be taking over? Their behavior’s rude, disrespectful, out of control, and nothing we’re trying, no kind of response that we’re giving, seems to be making a difference. That’s what I’m going to be going over in this podcast.

Here’s the note from this parent:

Hello, Janet-

Thank you for your rich resources. I do cherish them and listen often, although we continue to struggle daily with our seven-year-old son.

He is extremely strong-willed. He has been difficult most waking hours on a daily basis since age three-and-a-half. He doesn’t listen, rebuttals everything we say or ask of him, talks back. Is extremely rude and disrespectful. He knows it all. He rarely takes care of himself—showering, eating, dressing, brushing teeth—and we have to give him constant, repeated reminders to do these things. He acts helpless. He rarely self-plays. He has no personal space awareness. He’s always around us and it’s difficult to get things done or have alone time when he’s awake. He’s constantly pushing our buttons and we have to repeat ourselves on boundaries. For example, making loud, weird noises when his sister is sleeping.

We value respectful parenting, but find ourselves going from one extreme to another on the parenting spectrum because we are so frustrated. Nothing works, nothing gets to him, nothing changes his behavior. Our house is total chaos every day. He is running the show.

On top of that, he’s starting to affect our two-and-a-half-year-old daughter’s behavior. She’s not listening and manipulates us. My son is always engaging her in play, controlling what she can and can’t do, telling her to say and do things that he knows we shouldn’t.

I should also mention he’s good for others. There are rare complaints from school.

We are utterly frustrated and exhausted. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

So, where to begin here? I want to say something that I really, really hope doesn’t get taken the wrong way because these are obviously very caring parents and they’re trying their hardest to be respectful. When our child is running the show, when they seem to have more power than anyone else in the house, that is something that can only happen if we allow it to. And please don’t take this as a criticism of anybody, because I’ve been there. It happens and it happens to the best of us. But I think it’s important to recognize that this is in our control. We can stop allowing this to be the case in our home. We can change this.

And there’s good reasons to do that. Not only, as this parent says, is she utterly frustrated, exhausted, she sees it happening with their younger child now. But for our child, this boy does not want to be lord of the house. It’s not a comfortable way for any child to be, no child wants this. But unfortunately he can’t be the one to shift this dynamic that’s gone on, it sounds like since he was at least three-and-a-half years old. He can’t do it. We have to do it.

I hope that doesn’t feel like criticism and instead feels like good news: that we do have the power to change this and get out from under this spell that our child has seemed to put our whole house under. And it’s actually simpler, although I know not easy, but it’s simpler to do than we might imagine. So I’m going to be talking all about that.

Let’s start with going over some of the reasons that we fall into this dynamic. It’s like we’re in this stuck place with our child. We’re stuck and our child’s stuck, and it keeps going back and forth like a feedback loop. It’s not working. Like I said, we can change this. We absolutely can.

One reason that it happens, and that may be part of this parent’s challenge, is that we do not have enough models around us of what a respectful approach to discipline or, I don’t know what people call it, conscious parenting, gentle parenting, I’m not sure how people define those things. But oftentimes what happens is that we were not raised that way. We were raised with more of an old-school, authoritarian, harsh, punitive upbringing. And we’re drawn to respectful parenting because we don’t like the result of that upbringing. We don’t like the way it made us feel about ourselves, the relationship that it’s made between us and our parents, maybe the relationship that we still have with them.

So we’re drawn to this different way. And with this different way, we’re learning that we want to try to understand behavior and not just scare children or punish children into behaving a certain way. We want to understand why they’re behaving that way and resolve that behavior through our response, resolving the cause of the behavior.

But it’s a process, it’s a big learning process for us. So maybe we’re kind of in the middle, like a lot of people are, like most people are, I would say, that are interested in this. And maybe it’s always a process, we’re never at the end. But we’re not quite able to picture yet, and therefore embrace inside ourselves, how a more respectful approach to boundaries looks and feels. It sounds good, but we’re not quite there yet.

And again, that’s so understandable because there are just not enough viable models of this for us to learn from. There’s a lot of people these days sharing tips and scripts and perspectives, but that’s not the same as seeing it in action. That’s not enough to be able to make this enormous shift, cycle-breaking a lot of the times. It’s a huge deal that we’re trying to accomplish here, and we’re not going to be able to snap our fingers and do it. And especially because we can’t see it in action, we kind of have to find our way there without that. Shifting from what we’ve known all our childhood, all our life, about the way that parents respond to your behavior. And the things that you would never, ever do because you wouldn’t dream of doing them because your parent would punish you or yell at you or reject you in some way. How does it look in all these situations to own our positive power as leaders for our children? How does that look in all these specifics that happen every day when our child is saying no or being bossy or telling everybody what to do, being rude, disrespectful? We would’ve never gotten away with that. We would never have dreamed of doing it.

So that’s a lot that we’re up against, right? And I wish I could show you right now—and maybe there will be a way in the future that I can do that, besides through my podcast and my writing and recently my online course. Maybe there will be a way that I can demonstrate this, but in lieu of that, I’ll just keep sharing and offering verbal examples to try to help you picture this for yourself.

So this son of theirs, he’s very strong, which is so very positive. And what he’s showing through his behavior in this family is that he really needs to know 100% that he’s not able to run the show. That his parents are even more powerful than him. That they can be the leaders that he needs, so that he can be the child in the relationship, so that he can be freer.

How do we do that? These are the things that are getting in their way. One thing they’re doing is they’re getting caught up with the surface, which is the behaviors that are in their face. Why is he doing this? This is disrespectful. We’ve got to make that stop. Instead of that broader perspective, that deeper perspective, seeing beyond to why he’s acting like this. We can get so easily caught up in this, especially if we had an authoritarian upbringing. How dare my child act like this? I’ve got to make that stop. I’ve got to make sure they do this and I’ve got to make sure they eat and make sure they bathe and not let him talk to me that way. And push back on all these behaviors.

So I’m trying to fix it on a surface, behavioral level instead of seeing this bigger picture that he’s calling for help underneath all this. Not even consciously, he doesn’t know he’s doing it. But he’s checking out again and again and again, and it’s been years now, so he’s kind of stuck there, as they are. Now, as this child, I’m kind of assuming this role in the family of this child who behaves like this. How did this happen? I don’t want to be here. I don’t want to be doing this. I just want them to look at me and see the small person and say, “I’m not going to let you talk to me like that.” Instead of reacting to it and trying to push back on it. Or just letting it go, because we don’t want to push back at it, we don’t want to yell at him, but now we feel like we’re not sticking up for ourselves and it feels terrible. There is a way that’s not either of those things that I’m going to talk about.

So what I would like to help this parent and other parents see is what’s really going on. It’s not that he thinks it’s okay to do these things. And the most wonderful part of this note is that she says at the end, “I should mention he’s good for others. There are rare complaints from school.” Wow. So what can we take from that? He knows how to behave. He understands other people’s boundaries. He’s learned all the lessons that they want him to learn because he’s doing them with other adults and peers. He knows how to do it. So these parents are getting their messages across to him. However, in his relationship with them, they’re all still floundering because his parents aren’t quite giving him what he needs with them.

Now sometimes with children, they will be doing these kinds of behaviors away from the home too. That’s a sign that they are feeling overwhelmed with the amount of power that they have with other people. And sometimes you’ll see children like this and maybe they have a teacher that punishes, uses timeout, or friends that reject them. And while those things are hurtful and make them feel very alone, you can also get the sense sometimes that they’re almost grateful for the rest that they get there. Being in timeout, it doesn’t feel good, but it’s a rest from having to be this power player all the time. A little break from it. And sometimes you’ll see children that seem to even want that kind of punishment in a way because it feels like a little escape from that uncomfortable feeling of overpowering everybody.

But this boy does not have that issue at all, so that should give these parents even more confidence. We can help with this. We can change this by owning our power, by assuming our role in the family. Which is to not get wound up by what a seven-year-old or a six-year-old or a three-and-a-half-year-old is doing. Really seeing them as small children. Yes, they’re very capable, they’re very strong, they could be very articulate and bossy and powerful-seeming. But they’re little tiny people with just a few years or less than a dozen years on this planet. Whereas we have decades, right? Why would we let them push our buttons? So, getting caught up with the surface and just those behaviors that are in our face, that drains us, that drains our power. Our buttons get pushed because our upbringing is getting touched off, those experiences that we had with our parents.

Another thing that can get in our way is that we might be afraid our child isn’t going to be a nice child, that they’re messing up, that they’re a rude person, that they’re all these things. In this case, the child is showing that they’re not when they’re out in the world. But even if they were, that’s a stuck place that a child is in. It’s not who they are, it’s not a sign that they’re that kind of person. And we have the absolute power to shift this.

Another way they’re draining themselves in the moment is repeating themselves. Repeating ourselves, let’s consider why we’re doing that. Do we think that saying it another time, when our child clearly isn’t going to jump to what we said the first time, do we think that just saying it and saying it, that’s going to help? It very seldom does. And sometimes even the way we say it the first time, if we kind of look at it, it can be from a place of powerlessness. A way to own our power, positive power, when he doesn’t listen, he rebuts everything they say or ask of him. So if he’s not listening, saying it again is not going to help him listen, not going to help him do it. And a lot of times the first time we say it, we’re kind of saying it with that tone in our voice that’s either challenging, like, You’ve got to do this, come on, or already feeling like we’re mad at him and this isn’t going to work. When we own our power, we can be polite. We’re rising above, feeling that feeling of rising tall into our power and, “Oh, it’s time to do this. Would you please help?” Very open like that, not in a kind of already defensive or challenging manner.

Because a child that has a strong will like this—it’s a wonderful thing, they tend to be charismatic and colorful people and power players in the world—but they especially, and really all children, it’s not going to work with them when we’re challenging them. That’s going to create a chasm between us. What does help is for us to reach across, be our politest, most loving selves, and help them to save face so that they’re not in this adversarial position with us. We can put them into that place by the way that we ask them things. And again, it’s hard not to, if our child never does this and is getting on our nerves already and now we’re asking them to do something, it’s probably going to come off in a manner that’s not going to help us. And then what do we do? We get drained, we say it again, and then we feel smaller and smaller and smaller and less powerful.

So I would consider—and I’ve done a whole podcast about this—I’m not going to repeat myself, I’m going to say, “You know what? I’m going to give you a helping hand, here we go,” or, “Let me help turn the water on for you, darling.” Not sarcastically, it’s got to be genuine, but we’re not going to allow that gap between us. We’re going to reach our arms out through it and carry our child through as best that we can. And then if they’re still digging their heels in, we can let go of a lot of those things. “You don’t want to take a bath right now? Okay, let’s skip it.” Letting go of those not-crucial things for the win, so that in the bigger picture we’re not putting ourselves in that position of feeling powerless and our child is not getting stuck in that position of feeling nagged and pushed, which just makes them want to hold their ground even more.

Another way these parents are making it harder on themselves is inconsistency. So I hear this from parents a lot when they’re reaching out to me, they’ll say, We’re trying all these different things. This parent says, “We value respectful parenting, but find ourselves going from one extreme to another on the parenting spectrum because we’re so frustrated.” That’s understandable, but we’re creating more eventual frustration for ourselves by not being consistent. Because what happens on our child’s end, our perceptive child gets this message, and it can happen very young too, our child gets stuck wondering, and then they behave out of that wondering. What are they going to do this time? Even though they know, of course, that will make us angry and it’s not what they know they should do. But it becomes almost intriguing. What are they going to do this time? I feel that they’re almost exploding, so I’ve got to keep pushing that button to see if that’s going to come through. Leaving our child wondering like that is not going to be as helpful. It’s going to cause them to get stuck in those kinds of behaviors, those resistant behaviors. I know it can be difficult if maybe one of the parents is trying to go for a more respectful approach, but the other parent isn’t there yet, and that’s okay. The parents don’t have to be the same, but if each one of them could be consistent in the way they respond, that would help our child from this need to, I think of it as testing.

But it’s interesting, recently I’ve been hearing a lot of negative comments, not directed at me so much yet, I’m sure they will. But comments about that word testing, people don’t like the word toddlers testing. And that’s understandable to me, I appreciate this. This is very much constructive criticism that has got me thinking that the connotation of testing, it’s this adversarial thing. They’re trying to get me to perform in a certain way, that that’s how we think of testing. And that doesn’t help us to see our child in a positive, loving light and to see the help that they’re asking for here. When I use testing, I’m using it to mean they’re checking it out, like the way children will test toys and objects. What happens if I do this with it? What happens when I put these two together? So that’s what I mean by testing, I mean they’re checking it out. They’re very drawn to learning, children are expert learners in the early years especially. And most of all, they want to learn about us and their relationships with us and where their power is in our relationship, how much they have and how much we have. And they hope in their heart of hearts that we have a lot more than them because they can’t be free, young children without that and get to have a full childhood where they don’t have to worry about us, we’ve got it covered.

So, inconsistency, it’s totally understandable when we’re trying to find our way in this. And maybe we’re not in that role enough that we’re just feeling like, Now we’re just letting him be awful to us. It’s very hard not to get our buttons pushed and blow up.

So now I want to talk a little about all of these things that this parent brought up that her child is doing and how to respond to them from a positive power/leadership role. She says he doesn’t listen. I try to demonstrate a little about how to be when a child isn’t listening. It can be taking their hand, helping them physically. Also just approaching them with politeness and positive energy so we’re not already foreshadowing that it’s all going to go wrong. And really, how can a child push back when we’re being so polite? They’ll find a way, but when we’re welcoming their feelings, when we’re seeing their point of view, “Oh, it’s so hard to stop playing, I know, and take a bath now.” And we can state positive consequences of what’s going to happen next, like “Let’s help you get your bath, and if you want I can wash your hair. I love doing that. And then when you’re done with your bath, it’ll be time for dinner.” Using that positive, polite attitude rather than dreading and I’m already annoyed, or You better not I’m-challenging-you attitude. That’s when we own our power. We’ve got nothing to lose, right? If he doesn’t do it, it’s not the end of the world. If it’s something that we can physically stop, we stop it. We’re not afraid that he doesn’t know how to behave properly, and then every time that he does this, that’s feeding our fear. We understand this as a dynamic that he’s gotten caught up in with us.

So, “rebuts everything we say or ask of him.” Right there, one way to diffuse that or just own your positive power there is to say, “Hmm, okay, that’s an interesting point of view. You know what? We’re still going to do this.” But not to get into, “Yes it is. No it’s not. No it’s not, young man.” You know, have a light attitude about that. But again, that can trigger into our we could never do this with our parents, we would’ve gotten yelled at feelings. So that’s something that will help if you really explore it, if you haven’t already. Come into communion with the experiences that you had and how that made you feel and how hard it is every time your child does this, that it just feels wrong, right? Because it was considered so wrong for us to act like this. That’s going to get in our way, so explore that, make peace with it. Ideally put it aside, so that it doesn’t get in the way of the power that you own in this relationship and that your child desperately wants you to own.

Let him rebut everything, let him talk back. Just don’t get into a snapping back thing with him and talking back and talking back at him. Rise above it. “Oh, you don’t want to do that. Okay, hmm, that’s interesting.” Allow him to argue and don’t take the bait, don’t buy into it. Because he’s testing or checking out, Can I throw them off-balance? And if we decide we’re not going off-balance for this guy, if we practice that, then we won’t. And then he’ll stop because he’s getting what he unconsciously is asking for and needs: parents that can rise above and see him for what he is, a small child.

I just want to mention, too, that if these parents can make the shift—yes, the fact that it’s been going on for a few years now, it may take a little while for it to shift. But probably not as long as we think, because this is what our child wants in his heart of hearts more than anything. And when our child is getting what they want, then the shift can happen pretty quickly. But I would be prepared for there to be, in the transition, way more rebuttals, everything to be harder, way more resistance. He’s going to check this out to the hilt, hoping to find that relief, which you can give him. So he talks back, let him talk back. Rise taller, which means you don’t talk back at him talking back.

“Extremely rude and disrespectful.” So he can try those things, but the way to rise above those is to let it pass by, knowing he’s just trying out all the words and all the things that have bothered you before. But hold your ground, don’t go get him the thing he wants when he’s being rude or disrespectful. Stick up for yourself that way, that’s where the boundaries are here. “I don’t really appreciate that. Is there another way you can say that to me? Because that doesn’t make me feel like helping you right now.” That honest response, but not an offended response, If we can help it. Which means we have to do all this work in our perceptions of him, what he’s doing, what’s really going on here. Not just seeing that surface behavior, but seeing beyond to the red flag that he’s raising. Help, help, help, guys! Don’t let me do this anymore. See that, so that we don’t get offended. We see, Oh gosh, he’s got to try everything in the world now. He’s got to check it out to see, for us to prove to him that we can be this.

And I think the reason that I love this work so much is because what it brought out of me with my child, who was maybe three when I started to open my eyes to what was going on and that I needed to adjust my approach, what it brought out of me, it allowed me to grow a side of myself that I never knew I had. A powerful side that can love when someone isn’t being that loving, that can still love, but not be a pushover, not give into. But still love them and come back at them with love. It seems like a big thing to ask of ourselves, but it feels so good when you find that place, and everybody has it in them.

So, “extremely rude and disrespectful.” This has gone on because we’ve gotten triggered by it, because we’ve reacted to it, understandably. Rise above. See it as this little tiny person railing at your ankles, saying all these things and names and trying so hard to pull us down. And we’re not going to let it happen.

She says “he rarely takes care of himself—showering, eating, dressing, brushing teeth.” And she said, “we have to give him constant, repeated reminders to do these things.” So, those repeated reminders are getting in the way of him doing these things and making us feel drained of power. They’re not helping him, they’re making him hold onto his uncomfortable power that he doesn’t want to have. Don’t remind him, just say, “After you shower, we’re going to eat.” If he doesn’t want to eat, don’t make him eat. “The food’s going to be out. Here’s what we’re offering. We’d love you to sit and eat with us, but if you can’t, you can’t. Okay, we understand.” Let go of what you don’t control. If he really doesn’t want to shower, “Okay, you don’t have to shower today. Do you want to take a bath instead? Let’s have a smell and see if you need cleaning.” But anyway, have a lighthearted attitude about this.

Dressing, I would consider helping him dress instead of telling him to do it. Brushing his teeth, I mean all of these things, these are caregiving activities, except for the eating he really needs to do on his own. But I would offer to help him with the showering and the dressing, the brushing his teeth. So we’re not nagging, we’re not repeating ourselves. We’re just saying, “Can I help you do that? I know it’s hard. It’s a bummer to do, right? You don’t want to get dressed right now. Let me help you. I love dressing you.” Even though he’s seven years old and of course he knows how to do it himself, sometimes children just want a little TLC there. And yes, he’ll resist. “Oh no, no, I don’t want help.” “Oh come on, let me do it. I love doing it.” If we come at him with love, it’s going to melt away some of that resistance.

And then, “he acts helpless. He rarely self-plays.” That I would leave alone. I wouldn’t direct him to play on his own or do anything. That requires him to be able to let go on his own of being the power player in the house. And that’s going to be a process that he’ll come to.

“No personal space awareness, always around us.” So instead of letting that bother you, just kindly but firmly push him back. “You know what? I need a little more room here. I’m going to move you over.” But don’t let it bother you that he wants to be all over you. If you don’t let that bother you, and you just take your space when you need it. “You know what? I am going to close the door to the bathroom, and I’m actually going to lock it.” Calmly, confidently own your space. Don’t let it bother you that he’s shadowing you. Just push him back when it’s too close. “You know what? I don’t want you grabbing me.” And while you’re doing that, you’re going to take his hand off of you very comfortably, very confidently. “You’re feeling really touchy. Yeah, I don’t want the touch right now. Thanks though.” So taking the power out of that behavior.

And then she said, “repeat ourselves on boundaries.” So instead of talking the boundaries, and definitely instead of repeating them, help him stop with the behavior.

“Making loud, weird noises when his sister is sleeping.” So we really can’t control that directly. What I would do is welcome him to make the loud noises with you. “You know what? I know that’s really fun to do, isn’t it? And get us wound up that way. Come on, I want to hear those noises over here. Let’s go over to the living room and hear those noises. They’re very funny, huh?” The less you feed into that, the sooner it will go away. I mean, sometimes I would just let it go, honestly, altogether, and just say, “Hmm, you’re really having fun there. Making those noises, huh? Wow, that’s very loud, isn’t it?” He will stop when you stop getting bothered by it. And really, that’s true across the board with all these behaviors, and that’s what owning your power is. He’s going to wake her up this one time, and he won’t do it again if you let it go. And do the opposite of what he’s expecting, which is he’s expecting you to keep getting mad at him, getting your buttons pushed. We can deactivate these buttons, we really can.

She says, “we value respectful parenting, but find ourselves going from one extreme to another because we’re frustrated. Nothing works, nothing gets to him, nothing changes his behavior.” Right, because they’re trying too hard and responding to all these little things instead of rising taller, doing less, not trying to change his behavior that way. It’s like that story about how the wind was trying to make this man take off his jacket, and it wasn’t working. And then out comes the sun. The sun just shines. And sure enough, the man takes off his jacket. The sun doesn’t have to try so hard. Be the sun and save your power for positive power.

And then she says her daughter started doing it too, “not listening and manipulates us.” Yeah, so she’s started exploring the same thing. What is this power this behavior has with my parents? And now I need to check it out, too. And I don’t want to have more power than them either. As far as the two children together, when her “son is always engaging her in play, controlling what she can do.” Let them do that. Let him do that with her. She’ll stand up for herself with him, she’ll learn to. And let that go. I mean, he’s playing with her. That’s amazing for a seven-year-old to want to play with a two-and-a-half-year-old, right? They are going to be dominating in that play. As long as he’s not hurting her, I would let it go. And “telling her to say and do things that he knows that she shouldn’t.” I would try to be, honestly, amused by that. “Oh now you’re trying that too. Yeah, you learned that from your brother, huh? Very clever. Yeah, that doesn’t really work with us, but sure, go for it.”

Deactivate the buttons. Save your energy. Be the sun.

I really hope some of this helps, and thanks so much to these parents for reaching out to me. I feel you and I believe in you 100%.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting, you can get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and apple.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

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Transcript of “Mean Words, Aggressive Behaviors, Stalling, and Other Signs Kids Need Our Help”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Those of you that listen here regularly know that I like to cover several emails or questions that share a similar theme together in one podcast, because I want to try to be as helpful to as many people as possible. In this case, I actually have two categories that all these parent questions fall into: One of them is back-to-school, issues surrounding or that happen around going back to school. The second one, probably more important, is ways that children show us that they’re uncomfortable on some level and what can we do to help them. I’m looking forward to getting into this.

All of these notes I’m going to read are about children showing signs of discomfort, different ways that children do that. But before I read any of these, I’m going to share two ways that I recommend helping our children when they’re uncomfortable. And then I’m going to talk about how these two points apply and how they look in each of these situations.

So the first way to help is by not taking it personally. That means recognizing that this is a sign of my child’s discomfort. They’re not doing this at me, even if it seems like it’s at us. They’re showing their immaturity, as young children, in the ways that they manage stress. These are about our child, not us. They’re not our fault.

And yes, this is easier said than done because we are people in this relationship with our children and we care so much. We’re trying so hard, it is hard not to take offense or take it personally. But the problem is, when we’re not recognizing what’s going on with our child as their discomfort or their discomfort is making us uncomfortable, our child has to then reflect back our feelings, our discomfort, which can obviously exacerbate everything. So not only is it about our child being uncomfortable, but now it’s about us being uncomfortable and that making our child more uncomfortable. It can become a vicious cycle.

So that’s number one: working at that separation between us and our child that will help us to see them more clearly. When they’re babies, we can do this by practicing observing them, taking that little step back to try to see them with a little more objectivity. We’re never going to be completely objective observers, we’re always going to be inclined to project. That’s okay. And as children get older, of course it’s harder for us to just sit there and observe them like we can a baby, so it’s more of a mental challenge to separate ourselves. To see them as people going through their own stuff that’s not our fault.

And the second way that we can help children is to do something else that’s kind of counterintuitive for most of us: encouraging our kids to keep expressing it, sharing it, getting it off their chest, offloading it, however we want to look at that. Sharing these feelings with us their way, in their way and time. It’s seldom going to happen that we can say, “Hey, tell me more. What’s going on with you?” And our two-year-old is going to say, “Well, actually, I feel like this and that, and this is why I’m acting like this.” I mean, they don’t know themselves what’s going on with them more often than not, and even if they do, they struggle to articulate it, especially in the moment. They’re just feeling it, they’re just reacting, they’re just processing it. So this can’t be encouraging them to express it to us our way. It’s got to be encouraging their way, which is, as I often say, letting feelings be. And anyway, I’m going to explain how that looks in each of these cases.

Oftentimes, too, part of this encouraging is for us to say those quiet parts out loud. And I know that expression is often used as a negative, that people are sharing ugly thoughts out loud. But in this case, it’s very, very positive and healing when we can say those things that maybe we’re afraid to say because we feel worried that’s going to somehow make things worse. The opposite is true: The more we speak to the truth of what’s going on, the more helpful it is for our child as they’re offloading and processing these feelings.

So, (1) not taking it personally, and (2) encouraging kids to keep expressing it.

Alright, the first note I’m going to share is actually a little success story. It came as a comment on another podcast episode called “My Child Is So Mean to Me” and here’s the comment:

Yes! I’ve just been going through this with my extremely strong-willed four-year-old. [And she put a sad face.] Janet, your podcast was so timely. Today, my son wanted absolutely nothing to do with me, and acted as if he truly despised me. It was really hard not to take it personally, and if I’m honest, my heart was aching. I looked at him through your lens, before bedtime, and it completely shifted my perspective. Turns out he was upset that I can’t go into his preschool class with him (it is only three hours twice a week), and also upset that I’m smiling more at his three-month-old brother than at him (mostly because he’s been so hurtful and defiant). He even demonstrated my “half smile,” and said that it’s not a real smile. I thanked him for telling me, and reassured him that I love him, and that he makes me very happy. So thank you, thank you very much for your insight.

This is an example of the difference it makes when we put on that lens that it’s not a reflection on us, that we’re not taking it personally. I love her honesty here, that her heart was aching and that she felt despised by him. How easily we can fall into that, even as big, mature adults. So we can imagine even right there how challenging it is for a child when we are angry or annoyed or frustrated with them. Always normal to feel, but it can help even then for us to share those quiet thoughts out loud: “You’ve noticed I’ve been so short with you.” Or, in this case: “I haven’t been smiling at you all the way and I’ve been smiling at your brother more. That’s because I’ve been hurt by some stuff that you said and I’ve been taking it personally. But I realize that’s not what it’s about. It’s about you starting this preschool class and you want me to be there with you and here I am, home with the baby while you’re gone. That doesn’t feel nice, right?”

I’m not saying to say that in the moment when he’s saying something unkind to us or pushing us away, but at some point when you are more settled, that could be a very reassuring thing for him to hear. Oh, I’m not imagining this half smile. I don’t have to worry about that, that that half smile means I’m not loved. Putting it out there. And also recognizing that these kinds of behavior —when children reject us, when they’re defiant, they’re acting out to get our attention— all of those are very typical signs of discomfort. And because this child is four, he could really express himself, which is wonderful, right? A younger child can’t even do that much, so it can take more reflection to figure out what’s going on. It’s not going to be as easy as with an articulate four-year-old.

Okay, so now here’s a question. And this first one is, on the scale of discomfort, this is a more minor one:

Your books and podcasts have helped me tremendously in the past years as a new parent. I have a question regarding upbringing. We’ve tried as much as possible to practice respectful parenting, allowing my kids to have their emotions, let them grow and learn at their own pace, without being judgmental. This has really worked well and we saw our kids, especially the elder one who’s currently turning six, blossoming into a confident child. Sincere thanks from us.

However, we really found it challenging when my daughter started attending kindergarten when the teachers are using a more traditional approach and making fast and judgmental comments on kids. We were able to balance it initially and use it as an opportunity to teach her and see this as a different environment, therefore, good exposure for her. This was until the English teacher was changed, and she often uses very harsh words on kids. She will call her student stupid, etc. She’s shouted at kids, she would complain and lament a lot in front of the kids. Unfortunately, we are in the graduating year and changing school isn’t an option.

My daughter has started using the word “stupid” on her younger brother. May we please seek your advice on how to handle this? Thanks in advance.

And this note comes from a parent in Malaysia.

So the child is showing signs of discomfort by saying this word to her younger brother, she’s now calling him stupid. And the discomfort here is easy to understand, right? Even when we’re not on the receiving end of a teacher’s judgmental comments and yelling, it’s very disconcerting. This whole atmosphere of being judged is uncomfortable for any of us, especially a child.

Now, the reason I said this isn’t one of the bigger kinds of discomforts is that it’s not coming from the parents, it’s coming from a teacher. Which is still going to be uncomfortable, but not to the level of discomfort of having her parent yelling at home and being judgmental. We have the most powerful influence, so that can be reassuring—that our child is processing something, we can help them do that, and it’s easier for us to see here that this is not about us. So, easier to understand.

This parent doesn’t say what she’s doing about it, but her daughter is actually doing the perfect thing, which is she’s offloading what’s going on by bringing it home. Unfortunately, on to her brother. I don’t know exactly how this parent is reacting, but a normal reaction that we would have to this is, “Don’t talk to your brother like that. Come on, you can’t say that to him.” We push back on it, we get a little alarmed by that. We’ve got to make sure to let her know that’s not okay. But the thing is, she already knows that, she already senses that. She’s just trying to get this out of her system. And children do this when they’re exposed to uncomfortable things, they bring it home and they process it out. Whether that’s some kind of media they were exposed to or they observed something scary happening somewhere. Their job and our job, if we’re up for it, is for them to offload it with us.

So this is actually a great opportunity for this parent. She already did a lot of the work by explaining that this is a different environment. “You’re noticing that this teacher’s very judgmental and she has a short temper. Yeah, it doesn’t feel good, right? It doesn’t feel safe to be around that.” Instead of following that reflex that we all have to say, “Hey, don’t call him stupid, he’s not stupid,” or “Poor guy. You don’t want to be called stupid, do you?” Oftentimes children do know that it’s just a word, but we kind of fuel it with more, without meaning to, because we get offended for our child. Children, they’re so intuitive, they tend to see through it.

Which doesn’t mean it’s okay for her to call her younger brother stupid, though. In the moment, when her daughter says stupid on her younger brother, here’s how I would recommend intervening: “Hmm, now you want to call him stupid because you hear that kind of stuff at school from your teacher. I can’t let you do that with him. But I get that, I get you wanting to call everybody stupid. And it feels icky, right? That your teacher’s doing that kind of thing.” So, we can remind our child that something’s not okay while still holding them close to us. I don’t mean physically holding them close to us in this instance, but that idea of, I see you. I know why you’re doing this. I want you to do this, but don’t want your brother to be on the receiving end, if possible. But I’m not going to make a big deal out of it because then you and I are going to get stuck in a thing. I understand where this is coming from and why you’re doing this and it makes sense. I’m not saying to say all this to her, not all those words, but that kind of attitude. It’s okay, she’s doing the job, she’s doing what she’s supposed to do, bringing it home to us. So I would try to see this as very positive, a good sign.

Okay, here’s another one:

Hi, Janet-

I listen to your podcasts on a daily basis while I’m driving my kids to and from school, and it honestly has changed my whole perspective on all things parenting, and I truly believe I have become a better mum because of you.

There is one sticking point, however, that I’m finding myself in with my eldest daughter, who is six years old, and we can’t seem to move past it. She seems to lack any sort of intrinsic motivation when it comes to getting herself ready to leave the house. She’s more than capable of doing it all, but always needs me to ask her more than a handful of times and to keep reminding her: “It’s time to brush your teeth. It’s time to wear your clothes now. We will be late for school if we don’t get ready soon.” And she’s constantly getting distracted by her toys and wants to play while she should be getting ready.

I listened to your podcast with William Stixrud and I have also read his book, The Self-Driven Child, and I believe that I have perhaps been too involved and thus my daughter believes that it’s my job to do all these tasks for her or to at least be the one pushing her to do them. I was giving 95% and she would only give 5%. So this morning I tried taking a small step back and telling her that I trust that she knows what she has to do and I trust that she doesn’t want to be late for school. I told her I’m here if she needs me for the tricky parts.

She ended up moving so slowly and spent most of the time playing with her toy cars, so much so that she ended up being 15 minutes late to school. I am at my wit’s end and I’m really at a loss with what I can do to help her motivate herself.

I responded back to this parent via email:

Thank you for all your kind words and support. I’m thinking of responding via a podcast episode if that’s okay, but I have a couple of questions: One, how many children do you have and what are their ages? Two, can you describe in detail what you mean by doing 95% of her school preparation, her 5%? I would love to try to help.

And she replied:

Hi, Janet-

Thank you so much for your fast response. That honestly would be amazing if you could, it would help so much to get your take on this and some advice. I have two daughters. One is two years and the eldest is six years.

When I say I am giving 95% and she’s giving 5%, I mean this in regards to the amount of effort that is put in during the morning. I’m also referring to when William Stixrud explained in his book that the more effort we put into something they should be doing, the less they tend to put in. So I find in the morning, I’m the one that’s reminding her to brush her teeth, use the toilet, get dressed, and generally try to speed her along so we can get to school on time, and she doesn’t seem to have any intrinsic motivation to do this for herself. It’s a tricky situation as school, of course, is a non-negotiable and we can’t be late on a regular basis, but at the same time I really want this motivation to get dressed and get there on time to come from her.

Thank you so much for your reply.

So this is also kind of minor discomfort, I would say. Her daughter’s showing that she’s having a tough time in the transition of getting out the door in the morning. Very common area in which to be uncomfortable, especially for young children, in those transitions. And she has a two-year-old sibling who, I forgot to ask that, but who may be staying home with her parents. So she’s got to go off to this school, maybe it’s a new class. For whatever reason, she’s having a hard time and she has been for a while, I guess, and her mother’s been on her, on her, on her.

Now that can be just a frustrating waste of our energy when we do that. And yes, our children can get, as William Stixrud points out, they can get used to their parent being on their back for things. William Stixrud talks a lot in his book about homework and how kids really need us to stay out of that, which I totally agree with, not be the one having to nag them to do homework. And with this as well, it would be nice to encourage her more to do this on her own. But I think what might be getting this parent a little stuck is that she is now kind of, I guess you could say, taking it personally. She’s feeling like she did something wrong, and this is a sign that she did something wrong, and uh-oh now she’s got to fix it. She’s taking this on herself. When, in fact, there are a lot of six-year-olds who aren’t used to their parents nagging them to get ready that have a hard time, for a lot of different reasons.

And that’s what I would focus on here, for this parent. I would just notice, My child is having a tough time with the morning transition, very normal, instead of kind of wasting all that energy trying to nag her and push her. I don’t know about anybody else, but that’s the stuff I like least about parenting. I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to repeat myself, nag, and I kind of refuse to. It’s much easier and more helpful to her if we just step in and give her a helping hand, instead of trying to get her to do something. So even with intrinsic motivation, we can’t make that happen. We can step back and encourage it, but it’s not going to be an overnight process. There’s going to be a transitional period. And it seems like this parent maybe felt, Oh, I’ve got to change this and I’m just going to change it all and let her do everything. And she’s showing that she actually does need help, because she’s getting distracted, she’s maybe kind of stalling, she’s getting stuck.

So instead of seeing this as, Uh-oh, I’ve got to do a different job here, I would take that in, that prompting her and prompting her isn’t helping her. But I would still help her. I would just say, “Oh, you know what? You’re playing with your toy. Come on, we’re going to go put your clothes on now. You can play with that toy when you get home. We’re not going to do that now.” Very lovingly, just give her a helping hand. And use this time to give her some of that physical care that she may be missing as the older sibling. Maybe we help choose her clothes if she’s getting stuck there and we help her, “Let’s put your arms up. We’re going to put this over your head.” And we set out a little time to do this. Not letting her stall. “Looks like, yeah, of course you want to play this now, I get it, but this isn’t the time. If you get all dressed and I’m here to help, maybe there’ll be time, but no, I’m not going to let you do that.”

So, very loving limits and what I’ve often called “confident momentum.” Which isn’t fast, it’s not pushy, it’s just noticing where our children are getting stuck. And when she does that, when she welcomes it, she’s helping her do it. I believe that is what will help her feel that connection that she needs, in a tough time, to move through. And this doesn’t take that much more time, it probably takes less time than trying to prompt somebody repeatedly. And it’s certainly less stressful for us when we kind of give in to somebody needing a helping hand.

And then, while we’re helping her, that’s when she’s probably going to express the feelings that she has around these transitions, and maybe it’s about her sibling too, or things she’s worried about that are going on at school. Not that she’ll necessarily articulate them straight out, but she’ll say, “No, I want to play. I want to play.” “Yeah, I know, it’s so disappointing. It’s frustrating! But, you know, this isn’t the time.” So even if it seems like the most ridiculous feeling, that she shouldn’t have at this point in her life, usher it in, welcome it in, while you’re giving her the help that she needs. And from there she will feel more motivated because she’s not being nagged to, she’s doing it because she wants to, because she feels that she doesn’t have to, and it’s a choice that she’s making. And we’re not going to give her the option of missing school or having to show up late, because that’s much harder for her too, to show up late.

But this is different from doing homework, which I really would leave between her and her teacher. Hopefully she doesn’t have it yet, in kindergarten. But when she does, I wouldn’t sit down and do it with her. That I would let go of. But this is really a typical time when children do need our help: in a transition. I hope that helps a little bit.

Here’s another one:

Hi, Janet-

I’m writing today about my almost four-year-old. He is a deeply observant and emotional child, always filled with questions, bringing things up from conversations he’s overheard us having. Meltdowns are always welcomed, and I can see the visible relief they bring to him afterwards.

Lately though, it feels as if his feelings are “stuck” inside of him, leaving him in this state of dysregulation where he may hit or push his sister out of the blue, destroy something randomly, pull things off of shelves and walk away, throw toys aggressively, or even try to bite me. When I try to address him, he looks at me blankly, far from his usually sweet countenance, and I struggle to help him move past the state he’s in. I acknowledge the feelings, hold firm boundaries, and I’m ready for a meltdown, but rather, the feelings just seem to remain.

A big issue we’ve been dealing with for quite a while comes at preschool pickup. For almost a year now, he’s attended a wonderful small, primarily outdoor-based preschool led by a loving teacher who also practices your principles. When I arrive, his face grows very serious. I immediately acknowledge him and ask about his day and offer a hug, but while I try to speak with his teacher, he usually takes to suddenly taking a toy from one of his classmates or trying to destroy something in the garden or knocking something down. These behaviors had only been restricted to this moment, he wouldn’t behave like this during the day, but recently he scratched a classmate during the day. When I later asked why he would do this, he stated it was because she wasn’t nice. He randomly pushed a boy at the playground recently —so uncharacteristic— and he claimed the same thing, that he wasn’t nice.

I’m truly at a loss for how to help him past whatever it is that’s causing all of this, and my best efforts don’t seem to be giving him what he needs. My patience is definitely wearing thin, particularly as he’s started to harm other children.

I will add I’m newly pregnant, seven weeks, but definitely having a hard time physically, which I’m sure he can see. I have to figure there’s a correlation between this and what behavior we’re seeing. We haven’t told him or his sister that I’m expecting yet. We’re hoping to wait for the first ultrasound so we can have the picture to show them, but that isn’t for another month.

The sister is two years old, by the way. Okay, so I wrote back:

Thanks so much for your kind words, I would love to try to help. I have a couple of questions for you if you don’t mind. Can you describe what you mean by addressing him at preschool and how you are responding when he hits or pushes or throws toys, etc., with his sister and at preschool? Thanks.

And she wrote back:

When I arrive at preschool, I come up to him and get down at his eye level, ask him how he is, and offer a hug and tell him it’s good to see him. If I then try to speak with his teacher, this is when he typically takes to doing something destructive to the space or even harmful to a classmate. Up until this last week, he never behaved like this during the school day itself, the teacher reported he was always very go-with-the-flow and cooperative.

In calm moments, I’ve tried to come up with a way for him to communicate with me that he’s having a hard time at pickup— coming to hold my hand, putting a hand on my leg, etc., but nothing has stuck. When he tries to hit, throw, etc., I try to block or stop what he’s doing and typically get down to his eye level and express that I can tell he’s having a difficult time and that I’m going to prevent him from hurting himself, his sister, or breaking our things. Lately, he’s taken to biting me more and I’ve had to more strongly hold him back to prevent him, while I express to him that I’m going to keep him and I safe. But he’s growing stronger and I’m growing more tired. In moments where I’ve missed being able to stop him, if, for instance, he’s hit his sister, I check on his sister and issue her an apology and then offer him the chance to apologize, which he rarely takes, and then we try to move on.

I feel myself losing so much of the patience and calm I once had with him, and I’m yelling more, feeling disappointed in myself and very out of touch with my son. One other thing that has become a major sticking point: he has taken to unbuckling his car seatbelt while we are driving as well and refuses to put it back on. We’ve tried every approach to this: ignoring, calmly asking, regularly stopping to rebuckle him, I’ve yelled—but it continues to happen. I know he is absolutely leaning into my discomfort around this.

Yes, so another very perceptive parent with, as she describes, “a deeply observant and emotional child.” And here’s where I think this parent may be getting stuck in kind of taking this personally, taking this on herself. She notices that when he can have a full meltdown, that he feels better, but he’s not having a full meltdown here. He’s getting stuck in an angry, aggressive, defensive mode. And she’s trying to help him out of that, help him through this. She says, “I struggle to help him move past the state he’s in.” Well, that can’t be our job, helping him move past the state he’s in. He has to move past the state he’s in, and the way that he can do that is if, instead of this parent trying to make something happen here, and I understand she’s alarmed, right? It’s alarming when our children are suddenly acting in an uncharacteristic manner and hurting other children. It’s alarming and it’s a very, very common sign of discomfort.

And what could he be uncomfortable about? Her deeply observant and emotional child is noticing, as she says, she’s “newly pregnant, but definitely having a hard time physically, which I’m sure he can see.” So imagine a sensitive, emotional child, very observant. Something’s wrong. It’s clear, something’s wrong with his mother. What is this about? He can’t get a handle on it. And because he can’t get a handle on it, it becomes huge inside of him. Disconcerting, to put it mildly. Scary. Maybe I’ve done something. What’s going on? What have I lost here? I lost the way my mom used to feel, the way she used to be around me, the kind of energy that she had for me. So when we can stop trying to manage or help with the behavior, which is, I mean, this parent has wonderful instinct, obviously very attuned to her son, but not feeling her best. So it’s kind of the perfect storm for her to get stuck when she’s alarmed by his newer behaviors. But all of these are about him and his discomfort. And in this case, it seems pretty clear that he’s uncomfortable about her not sharing what’s going on with her.

So a couple of things here. Not taking it personally. Noticing, Wow, this guy’s really out of sorts. And when we note our child is going through something or we see that they’re uncomfortable, their behavior’s showing that loud and clear, maybe then we would choose not to talk to the teacher right then because he’s uncomfortable. And this is also an end-of-the-day transition, when children are the most tired. And now here he sees his mother, she says, “his face becomes quite serious,” like, There she is, and there’s something going on with her and she’s not telling me. And I’m scared, I’m filled with dread. It reminds me of everything that I’m feeling. So one thing I would consider doing is not leaving him then, helping him through this transition. When she stops to say hello, be ready for him to have a hard time. Help him get to the car and just help him out of there. Help him through that transition with confident momentum, but giving him what he needs at this time, which is her, her full presence.

She doesn’t have to talk about the pregnancy yet if she’s not ready. We get to decide that as parents. However, I would say the part out loud that you haven’t said maybe, which is: “You’ve noticed that I’m really tired these days. I get a little sick to my stomach. You notice that, right? It’s nothing to do with you. It’s something I’m going through. I’ll be back to myself again soon. But yeah, I should have told you this before, because I know you know me so well.” It will help him so much to know. Just as when we’re going through anything in our own lives with our relatives that’s affecting us, our children feel that. And if they don’t understand what’s going on, it becomes a big issue to them, a big, uncomfortable, scary thing. So clarify that for him. That will help a lot.

And then, instead of wanting him to have the meltdown and trying to get him there or trying to get him to come through this, I would try to receive the feelings as they’re coming. “Oh, that makes you want to hit. You want to bite, you just want to lash out right now. I’m here to stop you.” When I ask this parent what she does, she says she tries to block or stop what he’s doing. Yes, that’s what I recommend. “Typically get down to his eye level.” When possible, but he’s a four-year-old guy and she can look down to him sometimes too. “Express that I can tell he’s having a difficult time and that I’m going to prevent him from hurting himself, his sister, or breaking our things.” That, especially with a child this age, I would show more than tell. Not make a whole big deal out of it, just be like, “Oops, there it came back again.” Maybe you even end up having a little nickname together about the impulse. “There’s that upset guy again. I’m here to help you, I’m here to stop you.”

We don’t have to get into the whole I can’t let you do this to your sister and all that. I mean, because he does know that. So really just helping him in the moment instead of trying to make a bigger lesson about it. That’s often what we’re trying to do when we think about why we’re saying a lot of words around behavior. Just seeing it, welcoming the impulse without welcoming the behavior. And as with the other parent or all the parents, holding him close, figuratively, instead of being alarmed by it. Which we can only do when we see this is him, going through something, and what does he need? It’s not our job to fix, it’s just our job to welcome him to share it while helping him not do the behaviors that are harmful.

And with unbuckling the carseat, obviously there’s not a lot we can do about that, but his overall sense of, I see you. I’m here to help you. I’m not judging you, your behavior. I really get it. That will help him stop doing that too. And in the moment you could say something like, “Oops, I see that you wanted to unbuckle your buckle. You’re showing me something there, aren’t you? You’re really not comfortable with what’s going on. I want to know more about that when we get home, but for now, can you please put your buckle on?” I mean, there’s ways that we can deescalate the tension around that because it’s the tension that kind of feeds the behavior.

And maybe he won’t do it right then, but he will eventually. He won’t need to demonstrate this rebellion when he feels that you welcome his rebellion, you welcome all these feelings, in the way that they’re coming up. What gets us to yelling, which never feels good, is that we’re trying to manage behavior in a way that we really don’t have the power to manage it. But we do have the power to help him feel seen and be able to express what’s going on with him in the ways that he can, the ways that he’s doing it.

I really hope some of this helps all these parents. And thank you all so much for sending in your notes and trusting me to give you feedback. It’s an honor.

Please check out some of the other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame, and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting, you can get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and apple.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Mean Words, Aggressive Behavior, Stalling, and Other Signs Kids Need Our Help appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Problems with Punishments (Described by a Parent Who Used Them) with Michelle Kenney”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Michelle Kenney coaches parents who seek more calm and peace at home and want to move away from yelling, threats, and punishments into more connection. And as a self-described former yeller, recovering perfectionist, and reformed control freak, Michelle certainly understands the problems our punitive methods can cause, and the solutions, and also how to help others navigate the challenges of transforming their approach as she has done. I’m delighted to welcome her to share with us today. Michelle hosts the popular parenting podcast Peace and Parenting, and she’s the author of an insightful new book, Unpunished.

Hi, Michelle. Welcome to Unruffled.

Michelle Kenney: Hi, Janet. Thank you for having me. It’s so nice to be here.

Janet Lansbury: It’s really nice to meet you this way. You have a book, a new book out called Unpunished, and is that your first book?

Michelle Kenney: Yep, it’s my first book.

Janet Lansbury: So often we talk about the how in terms of parenting without punishments, gentle parenting, respectful parenting, conscious parenting. But we don’t often talk as much about the why. And that’s what I wanted to get into because you’ve had experience where you were punishing your children, right?

Michelle Kenney: Yes. I was a teacher and way back when, when I became a teacher, we really learned to reward and punish our students. And when my kids weren’t behaving, my oldest especially, I thought, I’ll just reward and punish her and then she’ll just whip into shape. And that didn’t work. She was not having it. And so we struggled for a long time before I finally decided that I needed to change things.

Janet Lansbury: Can you talk about how you realized it wasn’t working and what the effects were that you were seeing in her?

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. So I think the tipping point, and I talk about this a lot, is that she and her sister, who are three years apart, they were probably like two and five or three and six, and they were in the pool. And my oldest took my youngest and held her under the pool water. And I had to dive in and get them both and get them out, all of us screaming and yelling and me terrified that something terrible was going to happen. And at that moment I finally said, I have to change things because these are just kids and they’re obviously not responding to the way in which I’m coming to them. So in that moment I just said, I need to find something new. And I went on a rampage to change the way in which I was parenting them because I felt like we were on a really bad path.

Janet Lansbury: Did you feel like your older daughter was trying to get your attention with this kind of behavior? Like an unconscious call for help or, you know, I have all these feelings about having a sibling. Which happens, as we know, there’s a lot of feelings that that older child has to process around the situation. And if they don’t feel safe to process them with us, then it just gets all bottled up inside them and it can become rage or sadness or the whole gamut of emotions.

Michelle Kenney: I think that was the beginning of it. I think she displayed with aggression right away when she had a baby sister. And I think what exacerbated that aggression was my reaction to her aggression. So I started to really come down hard on her, correcting and reprimanding and sending her to timeout and really coming down hard on her because of my own fear that she was going to hurt her sister. And then also tied into my own sibling relationship, that wasn’t very good growing up. And so I was in this place where, if I didn’t get it to stop, they were going to grow up and have a horrible relationship. So, my own triggers. And I think she was playing out the relationship she and I shared on her sister. That she really was angry with me, but taking it out on Pia.

Janet Lansbury: Well, let’s shoot back to before Pia then, when it was just, what’s your older daughter’s name?

Michelle Kenney: Esme.

Janet Lansbury: Esme. So when you had Esme and when she became a toddler and started to have pushback behavior or whatever you want to call it. So that’s when you started using punishments with her?

Michelle Kenney: I did, but it was like she didn’t really push back. We had a pretty good relationship. She was able to follow directions and do as I asked, and really fell into line, so to speak, right up until right before I had her sister. And so I didn’t have a lot of experience with her really pushing the boundaries or trying out her own free will or anything, until her sister came. That was really the precipitous of it.

Janet Lansbury: Well, what did you mean about your relationship, that she was acting out your relationship with her sister?

Michelle Kenney: I think after her sister was born, our relationship —mine and Esme’s— changed. And I really became more punitive with her and more aggressive and more corrective. And so I think that was really hard on Esme. She didn’t know what to do with those feelings and she knew she couldn’t get them out with me because I would just punish her. And so she was playing out that dysregulation, for lack of a better word, with her sister.

Janet Lansbury: That’s what I thought. But then I thought maybe there was something in your relationship before that, that you thought that she was expressing through her sister.

Well, the situation that you have is, in my experience, very typical and instinctive. Especially when you had a child who didn’t show much resistance and everything was going along smoothly. And then you see this other side of them. I experienced this with both my children in different ways. You see this other side to them and it scares you and it brings up all these feelings of your own sibling issues or whatever. It’s so hard not to start bagging on that child or getting very stern with them. Because we’re shocked, right? It’s like, I never saw this side of you before. And it’s a side that comes from a lot of fear and hurt on their end, but it’s really hard to see that because they just can seem evil.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. This loving, sweet, adorable kid who I love to the bottom of my heart is pinching and squeezing and hitting my baby. And you think in your head, This has to stop and I don’t know what else to do, so I’m going to get aggressive.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, right. Then that taps into our fear: What have I created here? What’s going on?

Michelle Kenney: And I think too, for me, when we brought Pia home, Esme said, the first day, she said, “She has to go live with the neighbors because she’s taking all my people.” And I think in some instances I felt like I’ve ruined my oldest daughter’s life by bringing this baby into her life because she feels so displaced. And so I didn’t know how to rectify it all in my head.

Janet Lansbury: She actually verbalized it?

Michelle Kenney: Yeah.

Janet Lansbury: Wow. That’s pretty amazing.

I have two older sisters and one younger one, so I know what it’s like to be the younger and the older. And when the oldest one —who is an intense, strong personality— when my mother came home—and my mother had c-sections with all of us, so she was in the hospital for a bit. And when she came home with second older sister, the oldest one was only 15 months. And my mother said that she turned her head away from her, she just did this very deliberate, I can’t look at you with this baby. And it’s so heartbreaking.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. You know, I think that schism, it lasts, it doesn’t really go away very quickly there. That hurt is there.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Because then you’re seeing this baby being taken care of and all this physical attention and the nursing and everything. It’s a hurt that just keeps flaring up because it’s right in front of you. And what you were talking about there sounds like another thing that I remember feeling, which is our own sadness around the loss of that relationship that we had with the older child that was nice and smooth and we were a team. And now, we see their heartbreak or maybe we don’t even recognize it as that, but on some level we know that we’ve totally rocked their world.

Michelle Kenney: And it changes. Your relationship changes. I felt the change, I felt more distant from her because I was caring so deeply for her sister.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Well you have to make room for that other person. And then we feel guilt around that and that makes us even more reactive to the behavior, right? Because we’re not really entirely regulated in how we’re feeling.

Michelle Kenney: And I think punishments play a big role in the sibling relationship, but I think they also permeate, they’re everywhere. They really affect everything in your parenting. I don’t think it just stays in the sibling relationship, but it feels like it’s this hard thing that exists in every interaction that you have with your kids when you’re using punishments. It’s almost like you feel hardened toward them when you’re using punishments.

Janet Lansbury: Can you describe that a little more? What that feels like or how that looks?

Michelle Kenney: When Esme was doing something that I didn’t like, like being aggressive with her sister, and then I came down in this harsh manner, it almost put this wedge between us where I was like, No, you’re wrong and you’re bad and you’re doing something wrong and bad and I’m going to punish you. I’m going to almost retaliate against you because you’ve done this thing. So it made me feel like I was less loving toward her.

Janet Lansbury: And the chasm gets bigger and bigger, right? Because then that’s not working. And then you’re more frustrated and more angry and you feel more like that’s an “other” instead of your little girl.

Michelle Kenney: You’re willing to hurt them emotionally, yeah. Which is hard.

Janet Lansbury: And then that doesn’t feel good to us. And then our feelings of guilt and sadness and discomfort and the distance from this person that we used to be closer with. Even if we just started that with our first child when they became a toddler, we felt closer when they were an infant. And then now they’re a toddler and they’re saying no, and they’re not doing what we ask all the time. And they seem to not do things that we know they know how to do, just to spite us or whatever. But there’s always a reason behind that that isn’t about spite, it’s about their discomfort. 99% of the time it’s coming from their own discomfort, on some level. And then we feel, Oh, what happened to the baby that we used to be able to hug and snuggle and we had this bond with? It feels like it goes away, right? Or that it’s being threatened.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, it feels like it. You just become distant. You’re not as close, you’re not as connected.

Janet Lansbury: And so how did you see your way out of this?

Michelle Kenney: Well, I went to a school event later that week and we were doing council in schools and we were being trained and we had to sit in a circle and talk about our kid. And I just started bawling, because I was feeling so ashamed and I think stressed around my relationship with Esme. And this woman came up to me and she said, “You should really check out Hand in Hand Parenting. You should check out connected parenting.” And she’s like, “I have a coach.” And I was like, “I don’t really care who she is, just please send her to my house. I cannot do this anymore.” And I was lucky enough to fall in love with that ideology and that kind of started my journey into this world.

Janet Lansbury: So Hand in Hand Parenting, that’s Patty Wipfler. She’s been around forever. And she knew, and I think studied also with, my mentor Magda Gerber. So we have a lot in common. And years back when we were first sort of online, we did some events together, but I haven’t been in touch with her for a long time. But yeah, that approach is similar in many ways, especially in that it values and makes room for the feelings a child has that are really what is driving their behavior.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. So I became a certified instructor through her program. And her ideology really is, all expression is valid. And that embracing that helps a kid really offload the feelings that are getting stuck, that create the behaviors like Esme had. And once I started letting Esme have big tantrums and being there for her and understanding her and not punishing her, she totally changed. She became a whole new kid. And it was incredible, it was a drug to me. I was like, No, we need more tantrums, we need more connection, we need more everything! Because it was so profound.

Janet Lansbury: And how was it that Patty Wipfler and Hand in Hand presented feelings that helped you to make that adjustment in your own thinking? Because it sounded like you were thinking like most of us do, which is, Maybe my child is doing this on purpose, throwing a tantrum to get something from us. It’s manipulative. Or, This is just another sign that we’re bad parents. We should feel bad about this and we need to make it stop, stop, stop. That’s the focus that a lot of us have just innately: You’re upset, you’re my child, I’ve got to stop you. I’ve got to make it stop. How did you make that transition? Because this process is different for each of us, recognizing that, Oh wait, these feelings are our friends, they’re not our enemies or our problem to fix.

Michelle Kenney: There are a bunch of different things, but I think one of the most profound things, and I think what’s different about Hand in Hand Parenting, is that you’re deeply listened to as a parent. So when you feel that empathy that I never, ever encountered as a kid and didn’t really encounter as an adult too much either, except for maybe by my therapist, when you really feel empathically listened to and that becomes something that you cherish yourself, you realize how to give it to somebody else and you realize the importance of it. So I think the receiving of it makes you able to give it, and it helps you realize how deeply profound listening to anybody is.

Janet Lansbury: So when you go in the class, everyone’s sharing and they’re sharing their own experiences and everybody’s listening to their feelings around what’s going on with their child?

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. It’s something called listening time. And in one-on-one sessions and in group sessions, everyone’s able to share and be heard. We don’t fix, we don’t really try to tell people too much what they need to do, but just kind of hold space. And so it feels good as an adult to experience that.

Janet Lansbury: So they help you see how this is what your child needs too.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. And when you give it to them, I think this is the other big piece is that I kept thinking, I can’t sit there during this one-hour tantrum with my kid who’s spitting at me and kicking and hitting. This is insane and ridiculous. But I was like, I’m going to try it. And when they come through the other side and you see them calm and connected and feeling better and saying, “I’m sorry, Mommy,” and hugging you and not leaving your side for the rest of the night, you think to yourself, This worked. This helped my kid offload all this crap that was stuck inside of them that they needed to get out. And that’s the gold about it, I think.

Janet Lansbury: I don’t know about you, but I still feel when I’m helping a parent with a child or if it’s my child —my children are all adults now, but it never goes away— this feeling that, Oh, this is bad. I’ve got to fix this, this is a problem. And, poor them, and I’ve got to talk them out of it. That still comes up for me, even though I’ve done this hundreds of times now. But I don’t. Because once you’ve done it once or twice, you have that memory of, Oh yeah, I remember what happened and it was the right thing to do. So just trust it, trust it, trust it. Just let it be, let it go. And it validates you again that that’s the right thing to do. So yeah, it’s amazing. But to me it’s just so fascinating that it never goes away. Those feelings of wanting it to stop, it must be some very primal, responsive feeling that we pass down generation to generation. It’s so embedded in us, you know?

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. I also too think nobody ever let me have feelings growing up. If there were big feelings in the house, that was a bad thing. That should not happen, that has to be squashed. And so I think I really brought that into my parenting. There can’t be bad feelings here. We’re happy and that’s the way it has to be. And I’m going to do whatever it takes to make sure that we’re not having any upsets. That upsets are bad.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. So we had that modeled to us. We have not felt that for ourselves, that that’s okay for us to have the feelings. I got to see my mother in action when I had a baby. “Don’t cry, don’t cry. It’s okay. It’s okay. Don’t cry.”

Michelle Kenney: That’s my mom.

Janet Lansbury: So you see it right in front of you. Oh, that’s maybe why. That could be part of this.

Michelle Kenney: And then mainstream parenting still says, Shush the baby. Quiet the kid. That’s still way in our ethos.

Janet Lansbury: I know we’ve come a long way, though, because when I first started sharing online and Hand in Hand was one of the few, and Aware Parenting, Aletha Solter, she’s another one that was a champion for allowing children to have their feelings. But it was not accepted. And we’ve come such a long way. People are writing whole books about feelings and making their whole professional profile about allowing kids to have their feelings. And I think that’s fantastic. It gives me a lot of hope that we’re on our way to this getting more and more accepted.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, I think we are. You have obviously seen more, but I even see it in the last few years. There seems to be a much bigger awareness around just being kind to your kids. You don’t have to spank them, you don’t have to punish them. And that’s huge for our society.

Janet Lansbury: Yes, it is. And then there’s also the backlash against that, that the pendulum is swinging too far the other direction. You’re nice to your kids, but you never want them to feel bad about anything that you do or make a boundary that they’re going to react negatively to.

Michelle Kenney: I think people don’t want to punish and don’t want to yell and don’t want to do these things, but they don’t exactly know what else to do. So then they end up just maybe placating a lot or making sure everything’s okay all the time and always trying to make their kids happy. And I think it’s because they haven’t quite figured out what to do instead, how to set the limit and allow the feelings, how to have the boundary and be okay with it. They haven’t quite got to that place.

Janet Lansbury: Right. And sometimes that’s a positive because they’ve went this far and there’s just a little more work to do.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, I think so.

Janet Lansbury: Is that what you find with the parents that you work with?

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, I think there’s a couple of different camps. There’s a camp of parents that, they want to do the right thing, they just don’t know how to have a kind, calm, loving, empathic boundary. The only thing they know from their past is to be harsh. So in default, they do nothing. And I get that. I totally get that. And it’s just an easy fix, really.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. We’re afraid that that harsh part inside of us is going to pop out, then we’re just sort of ambivalent and that makes children uncomfortable, obviously.

Michelle Kenney: I know. And yeah, it is tough. And so I think that’s also why the gentle parenting world gets a lot of backlash is because we see this group of people maybe out there who don’t quite understand the boundary piece. And so many people are like, Well, that’s permissive.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Which I think it definitely can be.

Michelle Kenney: It can be, very much so.

Janet Lansbury: Can you talk a little about— you brought up before your sibling dynamic that you had as a child— I think that plays in very much to how we feel with these sibling behaviors and how we react to them and the triggers that we might have.

Michelle Kenney: Mm-hmm. I grew up in a house that was pretty punitive and shaming. Except for…  my parents, they really had this hands-off approach with siblings, which I see often. Like, just let them figure it out kind of thing. And so what ended up happening is that I was the older, stronger-willed child, and so I won every fight. I was in charge of everything and I basically just squashed my sister. And so she of course hated me for it. And we had this really terrible relationship growing up. Now since then, we’ve gone to therapy and figured it out and we are much, much closer now, but, you know, I’d already gone to therapy and I’d already figured it out with her. And so I feared so much that Esme was going to be me, and that she would ruin the relationship that she shared with her sister, that it just ignited me to this place of fear. And so I was bringing all that baggage right into my parenting, almost like a direct line. And it was really hard. And because I had two girls and my sister and I are two girls, it was like the perfect storm to be the bad recipe.

Janet Lansbury: I don’t think it’s a natural tendency to just want to totally dominate your younger sibling. My guess would be that that did come from shame and your own fear around the situation. I think your parents must have let you know very clearly that they didn’t think the way you were acting was okay, and maybe they turned a blind eye to it, but at some point you got the message. You were shameful. You weren’t feeling great about yourself, or you wouldn’t have acted like that.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. I think my dad came down really hard on me and was very punitive. And so, I learned that. I learned how to be punitive. I learned how to get what I wanted by using fear and by using punishment, so to speak. Again, like Esme was playing out her relationship with me on Pia, I was playing out the relationship I shared with my dad on my sister. And I don’t want to say I didn’t know any better, but I was in a really bad place.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. You know, that wasn’t the healthy, happy side of you that was acting that way.

Michelle Kenney: No, it certainly wasn’t. I was dysregulated and having a really tough time in my own relationships in my nuclear family, the other ones. And my poor sister ended up being the fallout from that.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. And that’s a very typical dynamic that I hear a lot about. For me, it was my oldest sister, but she, I know for sure, had a lot of rage and fear and my parents could not handle that at all. They weren’t punitive per se, but they could not handle the feelings. So they let her know quite clearly through their words and actions that that wasn’t acceptable. And so she had to hold it in and act it out in all these other ways and gain control of herself by gaining control of us. And it was a very disruptive situation at home. But I also weirdly related to her, especially when there was a younger one, younger than me. It defined her whole life, really, as a very intense personality, but like brilliant, creative, all these things. And she eventually chose to become estranged from the family.

When I had my daughter and then a second one —and my daughter is quite intense, my oldest one, reminded me a lot of my older sister in positive ways—I was ready for her to have a hard time with the next one. I wasn’t going to let what had happened to my sister happen. And I knew enough then about emotions and what causes behavior, what children go through. And so I took a lot of care to give her the boundaries for sure, but help her find acceptable ways to share with me, for her to feel seen by me, empathized with.

Michelle Kenney: I think too of what you say about your sister, how she was kind of estranged from the family, I hear that a lot. Online, a lot of people share that they can’t be part of their family because they’ve been labeled “villain” or “the bad one” and they have a hard time coming back into that role as adults. And that it’s very painful.

Janet Lansbury: And I guess it’s the labeling that causes the punishing, but then the punishing continues the behavior.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, it does.

Janet Lansbury: But the great news is there’s all this education out there for parents, though I’m sure it’s totally overwhelming.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. But I think too, on the positive note, I know now, my daughters are 14 and 17, and the relationships that I have with them is like, it’s a dream. It’s what I wanted, right? It’s what I wished I would’ve had as a kid. And it’s such a beautiful thing when you can get there, having these good, connected relationships where your kids feel safe to share with you and where you still have ups and downs and hard moments and big feelings and all that stuff, but it just, it feels good. And so I know, anyone out there, if you just try to get rid of the punishments and infuse some connection pieces that you can get there too.

Janet Lansbury: Can you talk about what’s different about your relationship with your children than what you had with your parents?

Michelle Kenney: I mean, my kids, I don’t think they tell me everything. Maybe I’m delusional, and I think they probably don’t share everything with me, but we share most things with one another. And I know they feel safe coming to me no matter what, when anything goes wrong and they’re having a hard time, they come straight to me. And it can be anything. And I know they feel safe. And I never felt that way when I was growing up. I didn’t feel safe to go to my parents. I lied. I snuck out. I did all of the things that kids who are scared of their parents do. And so that safety and that trust, it’s beautiful.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. I feel something very similar to that, that I didn’t tell my parents much at all. And I was afraid to, and I thought I’d be judged for most of the way I was living my life as a young adult, for sure. And way before that, I think I got the message when my little sister was born that I have bad sides to me and I can’t trust myself entirely. And I was afraid of how I was going to be seen by them. And yeah, my oldest told me the other day or she was telling somebody else that was over, “My mom gives great advice,” and it made me feel like a million dollars.

Michelle Kenney: That is so sweet.

Janet Lansbury: The sharing is unbelievably different from what I had and the feeling that if things go wrong between us, that it’s not going to be the end of anything. There’s none of the threat that I felt with my mother for sure. There was a threat that she was just going to turn away from me forever if I asserted myself in a negative way towards her. If I asserted feelings that were not positive. And you know, it’s interesting, it’s taken me a long time to even realize all the things, because I didn’t have some really harsh upbringing or anything. I had a lot of love and loved my parents all the way through and just more things come to light as you go along in life. And I don’t know, it’s interesting.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah, when Esme turned 12 and I was doing this work, I was like, This isn’t working anymore. She is out of her mind and I’m going to have to go back to punishments because this isn’t working. And I remember talking to my listening partner and she was like, “No, just stick with it. Just stick with it.” And I kept thinking for that whole year, what if I get to the end of this road here with this kid and this stuff doesn’t work, I’m really going to be upset. And now getting to kind of the end —she’s almost 18— I feel like, thank God I stuck through all of that, because there are hard moments. It’s not always easy, but it works. It does work.

Janet Lansbury: Was she doing a lot of rejection-of-mom things? Yeah. I mean that’s definitely girls with their moms in those adolescent years. Totally. And I think it’s very healthy and, you know, it’s the toddler saying no all over again.

Michelle Kenney: Oh yeah. She was all in her will. That was for sure.

Janet Lansbury: And that’s how they grow more separate from us and more autonomous: I have to reject everything you are to be able to be myself. But it is kind of shocking. I remember that. And then I remember it for my daughter, the older one, it was 14 to 16, like on the clock. She turned 16, all of a sudden she liked me again.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. They come back. I was like, Oh my gosh, you came back. Thank goodness. I was waiting!

Janet Lansbury: Yeah, you’ve got to stick with it. But it is scary sometimes. Can we trust? And I get that a lot from parents and I really get it. How’s my child going to learn that they shouldn’t do these things? Because you’re helping them not do them.

Michelle Kenney: Yeah. We believe the punishments will teach them right from wrong, which they really don’t.

Janet Lansbury: Yeah. Well I’m so glad that you found another way and that you are doing this amazing work, helping parents find another way.

Michelle Kenney: Without people like you and Patty, none of us would be doing this, so thank you to you.

Janet Lansbury: I love this. It’s like trying to sell something that you know works, so you’re not trying to sell it, you’re just sharing it. You’re just passing on what was passed to you that saved your skin.

Michelle Kenney: We keep going, we keep going.

Janet Lansbury: Well, you’re wonderful and thank you.

Michelle Kenney: Okay, thank you. Take care, bye.

Janet Lansbury: You too, bye.

You can check out Michelle’s book Unpunished, along with her courses and other offerings, at peaceandparentingla.com.

And please check out some of my other podcasts on my website, janetlansbury.com. They’re all indexed by subject and category, so you should be able to find whatever topic you might be interested in. And my books are available in paperback and on audio, No Bad Kids: Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care: A Guide to Respectful Parenting. You can find them through my website or on audible.com. And you can also get them in paperback at Amazon and in ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and apple.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Problems with Punishments (Described by a Parent Who Used Them) with Michelle Kenney appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Our Child Won’t Listen”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be responding to a parent who wrote to me. He has three children, but he’s mostly concerned about his oldest, who doesn’t seem to follow instructions and has been acting out. The parents are both using positive parenting, but it doesn’t seem to be effective for them. They’re looking for what they might be missing, and hopefully I’ll be able to give them some ideas about that.

Okay, here’s the letter I received:

Dear Janet,

I listen to your podcast regularly and I’ve heard multiple letters that you’ve read from parents with questions I have as well. And now I have a question of my own.

My partner and I have three children, ages four, two, and almost a month old. My son who is four is normally a very sweet and caring child, and we’ve done the best we can to follow the principles of positive parenting. One of the issues we struggle with is what to do when our son refuses to follow instructions and begins to act out. We don’t approve of timeouts and we don’t spank, but there are times when I feel that calmly talking to him and using the phrase, “I see that you want to do that,” and similar phrases seems to have no effect.

The issue we struggle with often is him not listening at all and ignoring us and continuing the behavior we say we can’t allow, such as pulling his younger sister around, climbing on our back and shoulders while we’re trying to care for the newborn.

What is the positive parenting method of dealing with a child where removing them from the situation, talking to them about the behavior, explaining our expectations, trying to understand their perspective, etc. does nothing, and the attitude and actions continue? Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

First of all, I can’t help but notice that there’s a new baby here. So right away, this oldest child’s behavior, and the second child, if they’re having any behavior like this, makes a lot of sense. And this could have been going on since nine months before the baby came, or close to that, when children get a sense that there’s a big change happening. So even if there weren’t any other stressors in this child’s life at all that he’d be responding to —and obviously there are a lot of normal difficulties that all children go through, changing to a new school, a new caregiver— even if none of those were happening, he has a big reason to be feeling a little kerfuffley in his behavior.

He’s showing that he isn’t able to stop himself even when his dad is very kindly and respectfully speaking to him about it. He’s not able to control when he is jumping on his parents or being rough with his younger sister with words alone. I love this note because it reflects a common type of misunderstanding that positive parenting, or what I call respectful parenting, means that if we say something to a child politely and respectfully, they’re going to stop what they’re doing or they’re going to do what we want them to do. That that will be enough on its own to set a limit or elicit cooperation. And often it isn’t in these early years because children are very sensitive and emotional, and that means they’re impulsive and they don’t have the self-control that, most of the time, we have as adults. Their feelings get the better of them. They feel threatened and they get stuck. Here I am climbing on my parent again. I know I’m not supposed to do this, but I can’t help myself. They get stuck and they need us to do more than talk to them in those times.

I definitely wouldn’t try to reason with a child who is, as children often are, showing us that they’re beyond reason, that they’re kind of gone. They’re not acting out of thoughtfulness and using their minds. This boy, he sounds like he’s very unsettled in these moments. That doesn’t mean he’s like this all the time, I’m sure he’s normally very sweet and caring and all those wonderful things. But it still comes up for children, especially in these situations where his whole place in the family seems to have shifted again. And maybe he hasn’t completely even resolved with the first transition to his sister. And now here we go again, all this attention is going to this baby. And yikes, what have I lost here?

So with these two understandings: First of all, that this boy does have a lot of good reason to be in a bit of an emotional crisis, at times, at least. And two, that our words are not going to be enough and appealing to our children’s minds when they’re kind of out of their minds is not going to work. What can we do? What I recommend is what I sometimes think of as being a papa or a mama bear. Using that part of ourselves that’s ready to give our child that physical help, picking them up, stopping them, putting the object away, helping them move off their sister, from a place of confidence in ourselves. And not being surprised by the behavior, being ready. Because we’ve normalized this for ourself, we expect it.

This is a huge adjustment for the whole family when another baby’s born. I’m sure I don’t have to tell this parent that, or any parent that. And this is especially challenging for the children because they feel this massive change in their relationship with their parents. It’s scary, it’s threatening. And then in the way that they’re viewed by their parents, if we get into a cycle where they know they’re disappointing us, they hear us losing our temper, getting annoyed, and it’s hard not to, right? With the behavior that we see. But that amplifies the discomfort and fear that they have. And yet this commonly, commonly happens. No matter how conscious we are as parents and how committed we are to gentleness, we’re human also, and it’s going to be upsetting if our child is suddenly doing these upsetting things and we can’t seem to reach them. So be prepared and, whenever you can, reach him right away physically, but from a place of being confident about what you’re doing.

What this dad is doing is wonderful. He’s acknowledging, he’s saying things like, “I see that you want to do that.” And talking to him about the behavior, explaining his expectations, trying to understand his child’s perspective. Those are all part of connecting with our child, but they can’t replace setting physical limits. Our children need more. And sometimes with the explanations, it can be a little too much. What’s even more respectful, and these parents are obviously respectful towards their children, is just to briefly explain, “Oops, that’s not safe. I see, yeah, you want to pull your sister around the house. No, I’m going to stop you right there. Mmm, I can’t let you grab her that tightly. And it sounds like she’s saying no, so I’m going to stop you.” And as we’re saying this, we’re gently preventing him from doing those things. We’re putting our hand in between them, we’re taking his hands off of her. We’re helping him when we see that he’s gone over the edge.

If we get into too much explaining in those times, it becomes us trying to reason with him. We start to feel that, and he feels that. And there we’re actually not going to be connecting with our child because our child has just gone to this unreasonable place, and now we’re trying to connect with them in a way that they are unable to, they just can’t get it. At another time, our child can get this, but when he’s in the middle of these moments, he can’t. So briefly noticing and acknowledging the, “I can see you want to do that” part that this dad mentions— wonderful. While you’re doing that, I would already be stopping him. Maybe even stop him before that and then say, “Oh, yeah, I see you want to do that. That’s not safe.” Or “I can’t let you.” Or “I’m going to help you stop.” And each time a child repeats these same actions, say even less. So maybe it becomes, “Oops, nope,” as we’re moving his hand or we’re putting a hand in between the two children.

This dad mentions that one of the options that they’ve tried is removing him from the situation. He says, “What’s the positive parenting method of dealing with a child where removing them from the situation does nothing?” The problem with removing him all the way from the situation is that it’s a little bit of overkill. It comes off as, Ugh, this is just overwhelming. We can’t handle you right now. And that’s quite appropriate when a child has really gone overboard and you can see that they’re just completely gone and they’re wreaking havoc everywhere, then yeah, sometimes we do have to take that extreme approach of, Okay, you’re just not safe here right now. You’re showing me. I see you. I’m going to help you here because I’ve got to go do this and I need you to be safe. But if we use that for these smaller, everyday incidents, then we’re not going to be giving our child the helpful, calming message that we want to give them, and that will help make a change in their behavior, help calm these impulses. Because we’re saying, Hey, we’ve got a handle on this. You’re not throwing anything at us that we don’t, at some level, expect and understand. And, even, we want to see you asking us for help, and we’re going to be there.

Ideally both parents would do this. Children can be very clear in that if maybe one parent is doing it but the other one isn’t, then they kind of keep going to get help from that other parent, almost like they’re training us, right? I mean, on some level, obviously it’s not conscious. They need both their leaders to be solid and comfortable in their role and understanding of the child as much as possible, so that the child can feel safe and feel a little more settled. And then when children are more settled, there’s less of the behavior. So that’s our goal in everything we do. Our goal is a safe, settled child who feels understood and that they can count on us to help whenever they need us, as much as possible.

So climbing on his parents’ back and shoulders. Now, that’s obviously going to be a difficult one to handle in the moment, gracefully and confidently. It does, again, make a lot of sense though. Look at me here. I see you busy with that baby. I’m not comfortable with what’s going on. How are you going to handle me? Those questions are coming up for him, and it’s going to be very hard for us, with a newborn, to receive that with empathy in a way that’s helpful to him. It’s going to be very hard. So we just do our best. But all of these things happen less when we’re taking care of the bigger picture of being the kind of leaders that help him feel safer and more settled. In that actual moment I think I would, with your body, as best you can while still holding the baby, get him off. But if he keeps doing it and there’s somebody else there that can move him away, that would be good. “Oops, I see you can’t handle this right now. So dad will help.”

Another thing I would do, if we need to be privately with the baby, say we’re putting the baby to bed or changing a diaper, and our older children are showing us that they can’t handle that safely, or quietly, in the case of putting a baby to bed, then we close the door. Not from a punitive place, but from a place of, You’re showing me you really can’t be safe with me right now, and I need to do this. It’s a place of confidence that it’s okay to give them that physical barrier when you need to. And I know a lot of parents are reticent about this, but it’s really about the way that we handle it. And then what children often do is they yell outside the door or they bang on the door, and right there, he’s actually having a really healthy release of his feelings about what’s going on, letting some of that fear out. And if we’re doing this from a place of love, not anger and punishment, then the feelings our child has in response, even if they seem terrible to us, are very positive. That’s the release that will, again, help him to feel more settled. But we’ve got to do it with acceptance of him and, maybe not necessarily tons of empathy in that moment if we’re not feeling it, but an overall attitude of empathy towards him and his situation.

Another way to help with this is to, at a calmer time, or before you have to do this activity with the baby, make a plan with him. “I know it’s hard for you sometimes to see me caring for the baby. You want my attention then too, right? That’s what big brothers often feel. Is there some way that we can help you feel better at these times? Is there something special you’d like to do while I’m feeding the baby?”

With my oldest daughter, who was four when her sister was born, this became playing with her dollhouse. She came to that on her own after one or two sessions of yelling outside the door where I was putting her sister to bed. And I just had to move through that as best I could, knowing that if she could share these feelings —or hoping, I should say— hoping that if she could share these feelings, if I’m accepting of them and I’m not mad at her, she’ll feel better. Letting them out will be helpful. And that was how it worked. She decided to go play with her dollhouse. And I know she did a lot of venting with those dolls, I could hear it sometimes because she would play with them almost every day after her preschool, emotionally processing the events of the day.

A plan might also be to say, which I also did with my children, “As soon as I’m done with the baby, it’ll be your time for me to read a book or play something, whatever you want. And I’m looking forward to that. So as soon as I finish with the baby, the sooner we’ll have our time.”

Another suggestion: empower him with a task that he can do to help you with whatever you’re doing with the baby. And even better maybe, ask him as a favor to help with his sister, help occupy her while you’re doing whatever it is with the baby. And right after that, you’ll be there to give him your attention.

But the main message I want to get across to these parents is: don’t be afraid to step in physically. Children need a lot of physical care from us, even when they’re well past infancy. On some level, they can crave it. And it’s not just when we’re hugging and cuddling and doing those things that feel clearer to us as being loving. It’s also in these other moments when we’re using a gentle but firm hand to help him when he needs help. Perceiving it that way and responding with that perception that we have.

I often used to say to myself, and I still do this with the children I’m working with, sometimes I say to myself, Don’t worry, I will stop you. I won’t let you do those things like hurt the baby, hurt or bother me. And that don’t worry attitude, that voice inside my head, don’t worry, help to give me confidence and stay in mama bear-hero mode when my child was showing they needed me.

So I hope some of that helps and clarifies. Also, please checkout some of my other podcasts at janetlansbury.com. website. They’re all indexed by subject and category so you should be able to find whatever topic you’re interested in. And I have books on audio at Audible.com, No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can also get them in paperback at Amazon and an ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Apple.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Our Child Won’t Listen appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “When Our Child Won’t Accept Boundaries”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be replying to a parent who feels like she needs a drastic change in her parenting approach because she has a two-year-old who resists all her attempts to set limits. And she says she’s suffering as a result and she doesn’t know what to do. Honestly, I relate so much to this issue and I hope my response is helpful.

Okay, here’s the email I received:

Hi, Janet-

I have a question. I feel like I am missing a step or steps. I’ve hit rock bottom. I’ve realized that I’ve been forgetting myself and suffered because I don’t have boundaries. I’ve always been the one helping, supporting everyone else to the detriment of myself. And now my two-year-old is making it very clear that I need a drastic change if I want our relationship to be a two-way street. I’ve read your book, articles, etc., but I can’t find the answer to my question. I don’t get what I’m supposed to do once I’ve set the limit and acknowledged his feelings when he reacts. Then what?

For example, I had to work in the kitchen at the computer. I told him, “I’m going to work now. I will close the gate.” I have a gate that separates the kitchen and living room. He right away started to cry and mumble angrily. I told him, “I hear you. You want to play with me and you’re upset that I cannot play with you at this moment.” Then he continued for an hour, and still going while I’m typing this.

What I’m missing is, what am I supposed to do during all this time? Am I supposed to not pay attention and continue my work? Seems to me I’m ignoring him. Or should I here and there acknowledge that he’s upset? I have to do this work and can’t sit close to the gate and look at him in his eyes for the hour he’s been crying. Or, is that what I’m supposed to do? I’m very confused with what to do during the crying. I feel that this is one piece of the puzzle missing. Even the neighbor came to knock on the door because of the hour-long crying and screaming.

We have moved to another country and my hubby is gone for three weeks, so I need to get things done. Your time and answer are greatly appreciated.

Okay, so I’m glad that this parent prefaced all of this by admitting an issue that a lot of us have, which is that she has a very hard time with personal boundaries. She’s not in the practice of setting them for herself. It sounds like her son has come into her life to help teach her how to do this, as children do. I’ve had a similar experience with my oldest daughter, where I really needed to learn how to assert myself and to accept that I’m not going to make people happy all the time with what I need to do. That really has to be okay with me, even if it’s my child. Maybe especially if it’s my child, because our children are looking to us to be their leaders, to be in a relationship with us, between two people, where both of us have needs and wants and our child’s wants don’t always take precedence over our needs.

Now, it sounds like this parent is expecting that she’s going to be able to go from zero to 10 here, in a way. Because she says she has difficulty setting any boundaries and disappointing her child, and now she’s wanting to zoom to what is probably the hardest thing for any child, which is to accept that their parent is right there near them and sucked into something else. Which is what our computers do, right? They draw us in deeply. Well, that’s going to be a hard thing to pull off for any parent and child. It’s going to be difficult for children to have us there, but we’re so engaged in a computer, and for us to be able to concentrate when our child is distracted by our presence. So we’ll talk a little about addressing that situation, but first I want to go over a little bit about how to approach setting boundaries.

The first thing I would do is take a look at why she doesn’t like to set boundaries with people. Often in this, there’s some element of the way we were raised. But when it comes down to it, it’s usually because we just don’t feel comfortable when others are not pleased with us. We’re much more comfortable with having that constant validation that we’re making other people happy. And then that becomes more important than taking care of our own needs, our self-care, and doing the things that make us feel happy. The problem with that is that it does create resentments, and these resentments really are our responsibility. They’re on us. They’re the fault of the person that isn’t setting their boundaries and is allowing that other person to walk all over them, in some ways. And what resentment does is it makes us not like that person as much, be annoyed by them, and that’s going to interfere with our relationship.

We don’t want that to happen to us with our children, right? And that’s the place I had to get to, for myself, to really make this shift. To bravely meet the challenge of setting a boundary that my child isn’t going to agree with. It’s for our relationship. It’s to prevent this kind of poison of resentment that my child doesn’t deserve and that I don’t deserve to feel. And what it also comes down to is, what does it really mean to love someone? Does it mean that we try to keep them happy all the time, that we never have any kind of conflict with them? Or is it to care for that person with the understanding that life isn’t about being content every moment? It’s about feeling a whole wide range of emotions, including being able to be in conflict with other people sometimes in our needs and our wishes.

I had to come to the realization that loving my child meant not just doing the easier stuff for me, which is laughing, playing, and snuggling and kissing and hugging. It’s doing the harder stuff— saying no, being a confident guide for them, getting yelled at, worrying that, Oh, maybe I was damaging my child by allowing them to express those feelings and have those kind of feelings. Feeling like I needed to fix them somehow, and that maybe it wasn’t safe to have my child upset with me. Maybe something permanent was going to happen in our relationship, they weren’t going to like me anymore, or they would abandon me. Something. All of those fears, it will help us to look at them and make peace with them. See that this is our stuff. And that really our child deserves to have the healthiest outlook, and that resilience that children naturally build when sometimes they get exactly what they want in that moment, and other times they don’t. They always get what they need in the end, but they don’t always get what they want.

Now, I know there are some advisors that will say this is a message that a child isn’t ready to get until some later age. But in truth, it’s a lot harder for us and for our child to have to switch into a different mode that they’re not used to, rather than gradually beginning that way from the start. And that’s why my mentor Magda suggested that even with our infants, if they need us, but we’re right in the middle of pouring that cup of tea for ourselves, and we want that one sip before we can go to them with love, then we do that. And then we come back to our child, Ah, I heard you, and I’m sorry I couldn’t be there right when you wanted me. I’m here now. Not feeling guilty, not feeling that we’ve done something wrong or that our child is unsafe in any way. Instead seeing this positively, feeling positive about this interaction.

It’s not something we’re trying to make happen in any kind of unnatural way or training. We’re not trying to make our child upset, ever. But we understand that through these normal self-care routines that we have, in some cases that are individual to us, what we need, and taking care of the house and getting food prepared for our children and all of those things that we as leaders have to do in the house, we will be disappointing our child a lot of the time. We’ll need to be causing them to be unhappy with our decision. And this is a dynamic that’s much easier and healthier for parents and children if we can begin it as early as possible.

But still, we can also switch into this at any time. Switching gears, and our child will then switch gears along with us, with a little bit of transition time probably, and some strong feelings. Generally, in the way that we engage with our child, our children will adapt very easily. But for us, it’s harder. It’s harder for us to change the way we perceive our role and the way we perceive our child and their feelings, and to bravely change those patterns and that dynamic that’s gone on between us. That’s the hard part. Children will usually shift almost immediately, but we have to do it first.

So all of that said, the type of interaction that this parent’s having with her child, I do go over this in a written post that this parent may not have read. It’s called Separating (with Confidence) from Your Clinging Child. And it’s just a very brief back-and-forth message exchange that I had with a parent about this very thing. Her child was a little bit younger, I think he was only 14 months. And she wanted to do her housework and he would just follow her around and be crying, a really sad look on his face. And it just seemed like he could not let go of her. What I recommend in that post is perceiving this as a healthy interaction between us. Positive messages that we can give our child, that we hear their strong feelings and that we actually want to hear that from our child. We always want them to express those hard things with us. We want to know how they feel. It doesn’t necessarily change the choices that we make as the leader, as the person who’s mature and who knows that X, Y, and Z have to happen for our life to be able to go in a healthy direction. Children can’t know that. They need somebody who does, and that’s us.

But to be in this what I call “disagreement” with children, it’s very, very healthy. It’s necessary. It teaches them that it’s safe to be in disagreement, to be in conflict, and to have feelings about that, and life goes on. And in fact, even in those disagreements, children can sense that there’s a lot of love and connection happening. Connection— it’s not just this positive, happy thing that we have. It’s about being honest and being able to be in respectful conflict and to be able to hear that other person’s feelings around that, even if they’re unhappy feelings and they’re directed at us. Especially if they’re directed at us.

So what this parent’s asking in this note is, what is she supposed to do once she set the limit and acknowledged his feelings and then he reacts? Wouldn’t it be so much easier if we could set the limit and then we acknowledge our child’s feelings, You didn’t like that I did this, and then they get it and it’s over? That was that. Now everything’s fine. That would be so nice. But my sense has been that children unconsciously use these experiences as a channel for strong feelings that they have. It could be about all kinds of things going on in their life externally, internally, and they’re venting. It’s like they open up that spout of the tea kettle and out pours all the steam that’s inside them.

So it’s not that they’re just reacting to the fact that we said we can’t play with them right this minute, or that we can’t give attention to them right this minute, or that we have to go to the bathroom, or that we gave our child the red cup when they wanted the blue cup. It’s not about cups. It’s not about us leaving, when our child knows that we’ll come back, or that they need us next to them every single second. No one needs another person’s attention every moment. Children would like our attention every moment, and they want to explore that, where our boundary is, but that doesn’t mean that they need it. Yes, they do need undivided attention from us periodically, where we give them that message: I’m so happy to be with you in this moment, and there’s nothing else I would rather do. That kind of attention children do need. I think we all need it. But not all the time. What children do after we acknowledge their feelings or after we set those limits, they will release some feelings, they will vent, they’ll object. And in that objection, they’re releasing all kinds of other feelings.

And even if we don’t believe that, even if we think they’re just objecting so strongly to that one specific thing, children need us to see that as a strong objection. That’s how we can see another real, capable person there. Which is the way our child needs us to see them, as a capable person. Not a person that’s completely weak and has no life at all beyond us, but an actual three-dimensional person that is capable of feeling a whole range of emotions, that is capable of disappointment that they don’t get what they want every time, that’s capable of occupying themselves. So it’s not that this child isn’t capable, it’s just that he’s having a hard time letting go. And oftentimes that’s because we haven’t completely let go. We don’t have complete conviction in what we’re doing. Complete conviction means we have to let go of what the other person feels about that. And if this parent has struggled her whole life with boundaries, which a lot of us have, it’s very likely that she’s not going to have enough conviction to be able to make a choice like this, where she’s going to be working on the computer in her child’s view.

But what I would do in this or any situation is set the limit: This is what I’m going to do. I’m going to close the gate. I love that she said all that, and then she says “he right away started to cry and mumble angrily.” So I would immediately respond to that verbally, Ah, I hear you. You really don’t want me to go right now. I would try to avoid adding on anything else, like, It’s going to be okay, here’s some toys to play with. I would really try to allow that feeling to be heard all the way, without us trying to adjust it or soften it. You’re saying no to me doing this! I hear that. And then, especially at first, I would definitely not expect to be working for more than, I don’t know, around 15 minutes at a time when she’s first establishing boundaries.

In fact, I would probably practice this for much smaller periods and shorter activities. Like, I’m going to the bathroom. Then he still cries and mumbles angrily. Wow, sounds like you really don’t want me to go right now. I hear that. Then you go. You come back, and oftentimes children will yell at us even more than they did when we were leaving. It’s like they’re saying, Hey, I didn’t give you permission to go and do that! How dare you go away from me? It’s much stronger than it can appear. It’s not pathetic, My life just fell apart. And I think it’s really important to make that distinction for ourselves, to see it that way. It’s important for our child and it’s important for us. Because to be able to set those limits, we need to see our child as strong and able to handle that. And our child needs to be perceived as strong, so that they can feel more capable in their world handling these age-appropriate situations. So walk away, come back, and if you get blasted when you come back, Wow, you really weren’t okay with me leaving. That was not what you wanted. Just say something that’s connected, empathetic. If possible, being willing to see and meet our child’s feelings at their full force and not be intimidated by it in any way. We see it as this strong, positive exchange we’ve just had, both of us asserting ourselves.

So this parent said she told him, “I hear you. You want to play with me and you’re upset that I cannot play with you at this moment.” And that’s a fine thing to say, if she was saying it with real connection. And she says, “then he continued for an hour.” So I’m not sure how this went on for an hour, if she actually tried to keep working for an hour, but I wouldn’t do that. I think that’s an expectation that’s not very reasonable, and with a toddler, it’s probably not going to happen. I would try to plan those longer periods of work for when your child is asleep, taking a nap. As my mother always used to say to me when she would call me during my children’s naps, she’d say, Well, I’m going to be quick because I know this is prime time. And it was. It was prime time for me to get some things done, to rest, to catch up a little. And not feel like everything I did meant setting a boundary with someone. It’s hard.

I mean, we’re not going to be able to do it all day long and we’re not going to be able to do it for an hour. But for the whole time, my child was unhappy with me. If it was a whole 10 to 15 minutes that I was going to take to do a couple of emails or whatever I had to do, every minute or so I would just turn my head and say, Wow, I hear you. You’re still going. You’re still telling me off. And that’s all. Giving that message of, I hear you, I accept you. Even, I’m sorry that I’m not able to please you right now. That can be said from a place of strength. Having that conviction inside, that’s the most important thing. The words don’t matter. The actions don’t even matter, as much as how we feel inside about holding onto ourselves as the leader. Having those boundaries, feeling good about them, feeling good about ourselves doing this.

That’s the challenge for this parent and for a lot of us, and that’s what I would work on. Reframing love as being a whole person in relationship with another whole person, your child. You’re teaching your child that other people have boundaries and your loved ones aren’t at your beck and call every second and aren’t afraid of your feelings. You get to have them, even if someone thinks they’re unreasonable. You have a right. And that loved ones know that your feelings are the healthiest thing anytime, anywhere that you express them. And if it seems like a huge overreaction, then there’s a reason for that. There’s been a buildup, and this is a healthy release.

So this parent says, “what am I supposed to do during this time?” And that’s what I would do: every minute or so, acknowledge that it’s still going on, from a place of comfort in your decision. She says, “I cannot sit close to the gate and look at him in his eyes for the hour.” So no, we don’t have to look at him into his eyes the whole hour, just every few minutes. Or maybe you’re not making eye contact, but you’re still acknowledging, I hear you behind me over there. I hear you still yelling at me. With your subtext, And that’s okay with me. Doesn’t shake me, doesn’t rattle me. I still know I’m doing the right thing.

Oftentimes with parents that I work with, they’ll have certain boundaries that are really clear to them. Like this one parent who said she felt very clear about holding her child’s hand in the parking lot. That was a clear one for me too. So with this parent, every time we’d be discussing a different boundary that she needed to set, like she needed to go to the bathroom or she had to do a couple of minutes’ work, I would say, You have to have the same belief in this as you did in holding your child’s hand in the parking lot. I had another parent that I talked to recently who’s a nutritionist and to her, it’s very clear that she’s not going to give her child sweets and that she’s not going to give her child dessert. But she has difficulty with other kinds of boundaries. So I said, You have to have that same assurance with everything you do.

You’ll find when you step into this role, you’ll start to believe in it, and slowly but surely it becomes a part of you. Or you just decide you’re going to feel safe doing it, or you’re going to try to feel safe. You’ll see that it works. It empowers you, it empowers your child, it empowers your relationship. And it will become very clear to you that this is love. I hope that helps.

And please know that wherever you are on your parenting journey, with boundaries, especially, I created the No Bad Kids Course to empower you to take your parenting to the next level.

Also, please checkout some of my other podcasts at janetlansbury.com. website. They’re all indexed by subject and category so you should be able to find whatever topic you’re interested in. And remember I have books on audio at Audible.com, No Bad Kids, Toddler Discipline Without Shame and Elevating Child Care, A Guide To Respectful Parenting. You can also get them in paperback at Amazon and an ebook at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and Apple.com.

Also I have an exclusive audio series, Sessions. There are five individual recordings of consultations I’ve had with parents where they agree to be recorded and we discuss all their parenting issues. We have a back and forth that for me is very helpful in exploring their topics and finding solutions. These are available by going to sessionsaudio.com and you can read a description of each episode and order them individually or get them all about three hours of audio for just under $20.

I believe in you. We can do this.

The post When Our Child Won’t Accept Boundaries appeared first on Janet Lansbury.

Transcript of “Stuck in a Pattern of Frustration and Anger”

Hi, this is Janet Lansbury. Welcome to Unruffled.

Today I’m going to be sharing my response to an email from a parent who’s upset about what she feels is her deteriorating relationship with her almost three-year-old daughter. She feels like she spends most of their time together struggling to get her girl to cooperate or behave, and then, naturally, getting angry when she doesn’t. This parent really wants to find a healthier dynamic for their relationship.

Okay, here’s the email I received:

Hi, Janet. I have an almost three-year-old daughter and an almost three-month-old son. Since becoming pregnant and then having my son, my bandwidth for interacting with my daughter has lessened so much, which saddens me greatly. We used to have such a close relationship. And while I think we still do, it is tarnished with my lessened patience and losing my temper at times.

Today, for example, we went to the park. Leaving the park has become “a thing” now. It started with me losing my temper one time when she wouldn’t leave when I asked. Now it happens almost always. She runs away when I say we have to leave. I brace for it. Today I told her, “Bye, I’m leaving,” when she wouldn’t come. I did it out of anger and desperation. In hindsight, I realized that kind of threat is manipulative, hurtful, and maybe even scary for her. She was very overtired as it was. She sat down in the wood chips, crying and screaming.

She finally did come. I said, “You can hold my hand or go in the stroller.” As I’m writing this, I realize how much my angry emotion plays into all of this, and even maybe causes her behavior to deteriorate. Anyway, she sat down and wouldn’t walk. She wanted me to hold her. I told her I couldn’t. She said at one point she wanted the stroller, and then refused it. I was physically trying to restrain her into the stroller while she was shrieking. I felt absolutely terrible, I hate having to physically make her do something. It actually hurts me now that she’s fairly big. I ended up roughly pulling her along the grass to where we were going.

This was a low point in my parenting. I ended up crying, which I’m sure was very upsetting to her. It has happened before. A couple of times I told her, “I know you’re really upset that we have to leave,” but it didn’t help much. I was so upset, it was hard to focus on saying these things. I really don’t want to continue this way with my daughter, but once these patterns start, I find it so hard to change them. It also happened with diaper changing, but has improved since I stopped getting angry at her.

I just don’t know how to be calm and confident when I’m so frustrated. Any suggestions for what to do in the park situation and how to create a new pattern where I do not lose my marbles, and she actually complies in a reasonable time when I say we’re leaving? And then just random statements like, “Please don’t put stickers on the couch. You can put them on this, but not that.” I feel like I’m just constantly telling her to not do something. If she doesn’t stop, I usually tell her I will have to help her, but it just feels like I’m spending so much time on her back. No fun.

I know you have a million emails, so if I happen to hear anything back, I will be happily surprised. Thank you.

Okay, so I feel for this parent. This dynamic that she’s gotten into with her daughter, it’s actually pretty common. There are some elements that create this that I recommend this parent takes a look at and deals with at the cause. That’s always the most effective way to address children’s behavior. Just like with anything, we want to heal it at the cause, not just deal with it symptomatically. If we can address and heal what’s behind the behavior, that’s where we’ll see a change. And that’s very important to understand.

So in this situation, first of all, this little girl has a three-month-old sibling, and this tends to be an emotional crisis period for most children. It shows up in different ways for each child. They do have a lot of fear around this situation, around this change and what’s happened to their life. And usually it will need to be expressed by the child in the way that children do this, which is unfortunately through behavior, through limit pushing. And then when the parent is able to calmly and with, ideally, a lot of acceptance of the child’s feelings, push up against that and hold their boundaries, then the child is able to discharge the feelings, to release the feelings. And that could come out angrily. It could come out in a tantrum. It could come out in an overwhelmed flopping to the floor, crying, sadness. It can look a lot of different ways.

So the first thing I would say to this parent is, it sounds like she probably does understand that this is a big element to what’s going on and that she can expect her child to be pushing limits at this time. That is the healthy way that children get their feelings out. And those feelings ideally will feel safe for them to share, even when they show up in these most obnoxious ways. It’s not that we’re going to be joyful that our child is behaving this way and responding so unreasonably, just seeming not to listen, not to follow directions, pushing back at us. But we’re able to see this as a healthy dynamic, a typical dynamic, an expected dynamic, and understand our role in it, which is just to hold these limits and to accept the feelings. And see the feelings, see these desires just to stay at the park. And, like this mother said she did, acknowledging that.

But it sounds like the problem that this parent seems to already understand in herself is that she’s not helping her child to feel safe to land the feelings, because she is getting frustrated and angry when her daughter does these things. Now, there’s certainly nothing unusual or shameful about parents getting frustrated and angry with their children. We all do it, sometimes. But it’s important to understand that this actually creates more discomfort in our child. Therefore, it makes our job even harder because now we’re going to see that every time our child is uncomfortable, there’s going to be more of this kind of behavior because they need to release those feelings of discomfort and fear. So now we’re adding the fear that, from the child’s point of view, Not only do I feel so in a crisis that I’m doing these crazy, impulsive things, but my parents are angry with me. These people that I need to help me in these situations and see where I am and help me early, they’re rejecting me for this. They see me as wrong and bad, and yikes! What that does is it makes feelings that are already very scary and uncomfortable for a child, even more scary, even more overwhelming.

But on our end, the reasons we do get frustrated are that we have this different expectation than the one that will ultimately help us. We maybe have the expectation that our child should be able to leave the park, or our child should be able to not put stickers on the couch when they know they’re not supposed to. Because children are, certainly at three years old, intelligent enough not to do these things. They do understand what we want, so hey, why aren’t they doing it? Because they’re seeking, unconsciously, that boundary. They’re seeking that safe place to push up against so that they can land their feelings. And if we have that kind of outlook as a parent, that kind of perception of the situation, that expectation, that will help us to not get frustrated. There’s still nothing wrong with us if we do, but getting frustrated is perpetuating the problem. So it’s something to go for: a perception that helps us get less frustrated.

Then the other part of this is the way that we actually handle the behavior. It’s my sense that this mother may be waiting way too long to be physical with her child. She comments that she doesn’t like being physical, and yeah, that’s a problem that I hear often. And I really understand, especially if what we know of physicality from a parent was out of anger and frustration. That doesn’t feel good, right? But when we see all physicality as a problem, it really does get in the way, because caring for young children, they need this feeling that we can handle them, no matter what they throw at us. That we’re going to be able to somehow pick them up or get them out of those situations, and that we’re going to be able to help them do things that they’re not able to do. And, ideally, without losing our temper or being rough or being angry.

The way to do that is to first expect it on some level. Expect that there’s going to be this kind of behavior. If we’ve seen it in the past, if we know that our child is in a big transition, like the transition to a new sibling, we want to try to expect it and then see it at the outset when it’s starting. For example, with the stickers on the couch, I wouldn’t even say, “please don’t do that,” because I could see that my child is already doing something that my child knows I don’t want them to do. So instead of telling them something that they already know, I want to notice, Okay, they’re doing some funny business there, so I’m going to calmly make sure that this doesn’t happen. I go over to my child. Mm, you’ve got those stickers, I see. I’m not going to let you do that. And I’m already physically stopping my child right there. That physical limit-setting is what children crave, especially when there’s a baby involved who’s getting a lot of physical care, a lot of touch, a lot of holding and carrying. So for that reason as well, they feel the need for that.

And that’s why it’s so important for parents to perceive this, as much as possible, as positive. A positive, loving exchange when you’re actually doing something that, yes, it’s against your child’s will in that moment, but you’re doing it with love and kindness and confidence. You’re taking that little bear cub and you’re stopping those little paws from doing this or that. And you’re picking them up and taking them out of the park.

And, with the park, she says this has become “a thing.” So yes, see it coming. Anticipate, not in a negative, Oh, here we go again! way, but, Okay, my child’s struggling with this, so I’m going to help. And then go close when it’s time to leave. If possible, we don’t want to signal by saying, “Okay, it’s time to go!” when our child has shown this behavior of having difficulty leaving, because then we’re kind of signaling, All right, we’re going to enter this power struggle now! We’re going to go back to this routine that we’ve had up until now!

Toddlers that have babies at home or younger siblings or other reasons that they have strong feelings, maybe they’re in another kind of big transition, like they’ve just moved or they’re starting a new school or something’s happening with their parents’ relationship– they’re very likely not able to leave the park. It’s those little transitions that do them in. And, as this parent says, she realized her child was overtired. So yeah, it becomes impossible for them. But rather than putting your card out there for her to see, that it’s time to go, from afar, don’t say anything until you’re right up next to her. Okay, it’s time. It’s time for us to go. And now you’ll already have your hand on her shoulder or your arm around her back. Here we go. We’ve got to go now.

And then if you feel any resistance, you move right through it. Confident momentum. If possible, you pick her up, you help her into the stroller. The sooner you do it, the less likely that you’ll be facing a struggle in return. But even if there is a struggle, we want to still keep moving through it as best as we can. Yes, this can be hard sometimes with a bigger child, maybe it even hurts us. But every time we take one of these actions, we’re going to prevent more of this. So we’re actually improving this situation, healing it from happening again, by doing this messy thing. I know it’s not fun, and sometimes it’s not easy, you might get kicked or hit a little bit. But if we do the best we can to move through that, that’s going to save us from this happening a bunch of other times.

It’s going to take this out of becoming “a thing” into becoming a time when a parent puts their arm around you and moves you along with love. Seeing this as positive, seeing this as a loving exchange that our child wants to have with us, needs to have with us. That’s the key to not getting frustrated, not getting upset, not being too rough, or even anything remotely close to abusive. Is it forceful? Yes, forceful with love and kindness. It’s a loving act, and it’s a million times more loving than threatening that we’re going to leave or losing our temper or asking our child more than once, even. If we hear ourselves asking our child to do something or not do something more than once, then usually that means we’re already too late in physically following through with that limit.

But of course, we’re not going to be perfect at this. And, when we realize after the fact that it didn’t work or we weren’t at our best, we got angry, we yelled at our child, we did things we regret. It can be really helpful after this kind of situation, like after the park or whatever, when it didn’t go well, to consider with self-compassion, Huh? Where was I going there in my mind? Why did I get so upset? Exploring this in ourselves, with a lot of love and kindness towards ourselves. We’re all on a journey, and the goal is to make slow progress. Sometimes it’s going to be two steps forward, one step back, or one step forward, two steps back. But we can pat ourselves on the back if our goal is to continue moving forward.

So when this mother says that the little girl sat down and wouldn’t walk, ideally we would want to be there soon enough, and before we talk about leaving the park, so that she doesn’t have that time to sit down and get more set in that kind of power struggle. But if she does, I would still try to get in there right away, pick her up. And if the baby’s there, I would consider having the baby safe in a stroller and not be carrying the baby if that’s possible at that time. Because it can be really hard for a toddler to see the baby right up there next to you, and that’s going to make it more likely that she’s going to have a hard time in that exchange and need to express feelings around it. So just for ourselves, it’s easier if we can be physically available to our toddler, but I realize that’s not always possible. So if we’re not and we have a baby in a carrier, or we need to hold the baby, then just know that we have to be even more confident. And use what I call confident momentum: coming in early, ready to move, expecting that this might be an issue, getting that momentum going. It makes up for physical strength that we might not feel. And some parents have physical issues and they can’t pick their child up every time. Confidence makes up for a lot. When we have that motion going, we don’t need to use as much physical strength. Because we’re in the zone, we’re in this mode that we’re not mad at our child and we’re just going to help them. We’re going to make this happen.

So that’s how I would break this pattern. By being physical right away, by using confident momentum, and definitely not expecting that words are going to be enough. They’re just not. Our words don’t have that much power with a child that has reasons to want to dig their heels in. So I would say a lot less and expect to do more and do it a lot earlier. Not getting to that stage of telling her to do something, and then if she doesn’t stop, now I have to tell her, “I’m going to help you.” It will work better if she just helps her right away, without signaling it. And at this time in this child’s life, for whatever reason—in this case, there’s a good reason, the transition to the baby. But for whatever reason, she’s showing that she does need help right at the outset of these behaviors. And then this parent will see that she’s not going to be spending so much time on her daughter’s back. There may be periods where it feels like she’s constantly moving her daughter through or stopping her daughter from this or that, but it will all pass much sooner if she can move through with confidence as a leader. Perceiving this as loving, knowing that this is what children want. I hope that helps.

And there’s much more help on the way because … at last! I’ve created the No Bad Kids Master Course to give you all the tools and perspective you need to not only understand  and respond effectively to your children’s behavior but also build positive, respectful, relationships with them for life! Check out all the details at nobadkidscourse.com.

Thanks so much for listening. We can do this.

The post Stuck in a Pattern of Frustration and Anger appeared first on Janet Lansbury.